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Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of

Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of every engineer in rich EU countries. Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. My experience is that companies that do offer extreme salaries do not do so out of competition with FAANG (since FAANG does not compete with itself globally, i.e. FAANG companies tell you something like "if you want SF salary, come and work in SF," which tends to be difficult due to the exploitative nature of US immigration system). Rather, there's some kind of a catch, like "we need you to know this highly specialized thing that globally only a handful of people have experience with" (I'm looking at you, AI solvers), or they provide conditions very few people can tolerate.

2-718-281-828 4y ago
> or they provide conditions very few people can tolerate. Like intimate cleaning and nursing of old and very sick people under immense time pressure and emotional stress. Oh, well ... never mind
- idlehand 4y ago
  Gentle reminder that wages are set by markets generally based on the cost of replacement. If you don't have a moat in the form of education and experience, you won't have very impressive pay. Working in the public sector just makes this worse because politicians need to keep your wages down to have room in the budget for their pet project which will hopefully get them re-elected.
  - 2-718-281-828 4y ago
    They have huge problems here to find replacement here in Germany and pretty much anywhere else in the world, too. You're assumption is hence wrong.
    - idlehand 4y ago
      If the wages are not rising, then the organization sees no replacement as better than a more expensive replacement. It's just price capping leading to scarcity.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
Unfortunately, I have to agree. The truth is that it’s entirely possible for some people to get SF FAANG level salaries while working in the EU, but those salaries are extremely rare. It’s not the same as SF or Seattle or NYC where there are numerous job opportunities and career paths that could lead to those salaries. Instead, they’re reserved for a select few high achievers who are uniquely talented and accomplished. This article has caused a lot of consternation in one of the international forums I follow with a lot of younger people getting started in their EU tech careers because they can’t figure out why they’re unable to find compensation coming close to this anywhere.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Would you mind sharing that international forum?
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
Base level compensations for FAANG positions outside of SV are indeed pretty typical and humdrum. But they contain a large equity portion. And over 2-3 years that equity portion ends up being more than the base salary, and you can get pretty close to a Bay Area compensation range. e.g. I was L4 @ Google Waterloo in Canada. Base compensation was nothing special. Good for the immediate area, but not stellar. Yes, nice perks, amazing benefits, decent vacation, good bonus, etc. But after accruing RSUs for a few years you're probably making double what you started with. Especially so if the stock goes up a bunch. Could you make more money working directly for Google in SV? Certainly, but your cost of living would be way higher. But even if you stay home you're likely making at least twice what your peers in the regular local companies are making. Unfortunately it's terrible golden handcuffs, because nobody else in the region will be able to match that compensation package.
- mupuff1234 4y ago
  That was true for the longest bull run in history, which may or may not continue.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    Sure, though the equity refreshes done at Google are done yearly targeting a $$ range at the current share price, and then vesting over multiple years. So even if the stock goes down it will tend to amortize out to about the same over a number of years, and if the stock goes up a bunch again older grants made "at the bottom" could even net you big results. But of course there's also the chance that not only will Google's stock go down, but their revenues... and generosity... will to. Me, I "lucked out" and sold my RSU at the peak. Though I've been living off the cash proceeds since, so.
  - K0SM0S 4y ago
    There are other ways to pay people, using stocks in a bull run is just good allocation of resources. Great companies always find a way to attract talent no matter the situation, even recessionary.
Jacqued 4y ago
In my experience, this is mostly wrong. You don’t get 500-600k Silicon Valley offers in Europe just for being a solid engineer. You do get a total comp that is 2-3x local market if you manage to get into FAANG like companies and even the tier below. I think this is what Gergely is describing. That is still life changing for a lot of engineers, and worth the 3 month grind to get through the interviews. At least it was for me, and this article was a big part of why I made the jump.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  2-3x local market is doable even outside of fangs, usually with more flexibility (remote was a nice perk pre-pandemic) and no bullshit interview. If you pair it with working via your own limited company and get your taxes down to single digits or low double digits you can make as much as salaried people on 300k - and with no equity that can go up or down (sure, and no holidays or sick days if you're the kind of person that does those). Yet, even when you hit 200+k in EU, you're still left thinking you could be making 600k in SV.
  - FrenchDevRemote 4y ago
    >(sure, and no holidays or sick days if you're the kind of person that does those). the kind of person that does those? you mean humans?
    - kortilla 4y ago
      Usage of sick days seems to follow a bimodal pattern. There are people that use them up like vacation days for all kinds of reasons and people who very rarely use them (<1 day a year on avg). This was true through my entire career and even back in high school. I think usage of sick days is likely to follow a learned behavior from parents/siblings growing up.
      - stkdump 4y ago
        So what if you are sick? You are using your normal vacation days?
202206241203 4y ago
> Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. I don't think Germany has at-will employment. Plus all the taxes to feed people who don't want to work.
- dreinhardt 4y ago
  > Plus all the taxes to feed people who don't want to work. That’s a very bad representation of the German reality of long term unemployment caused by the lack of availability of jobs. The majority of welfare recipients in Germany are working people who are underpaid and/or underemployed. What your taxes are really paying for is keeping the economic system with the largest low-wage sector in Europe going. Think about that before yapping about „people who don’t want to work“.

2-718-281-828 4y ago

> or they provide conditions very few people can tolerate. Like intimate cleaning and nursing of old and very sick people under immense time pressure and emotional stress. Oh, well ... never mind

idlehand 4y ago
Gentle reminder that wages are set by markets generally based on the cost of replacement. If you don't have a moat in the form of education and experience, you won't have very impressive pay. Working in the public sector just makes this worse because politicians need to keep your wages down to have room in the budget for their pet project which will hopefully get them re-elected.
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  They have huge problems here to find replacement here in Germany and pretty much anywhere else in the world, too. You're assumption is hence wrong.
  - idlehand 4y ago
    If the wages are not rising, then the organization sees no replacement as better than a more expensive replacement. It's just price capping leading to scarcity.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

Unfortunately, I have to agree. The truth is that it’s entirely possible for some people to get SF FAANG level salaries while working in the EU, but those salaries are extremely rare. It’s not the same as SF or Seattle or NYC where there are numerous job opportunities and career paths that could lead to those salaries. Instead, they’re reserved for a select few high achievers who are uniquely talented and accomplished. This article has caused a lot of consternation in one of the international forums I follow with a lot of younger people getting started in their EU tech careers because they can’t figure out why they’re unable to find compensation coming close to this anywhere.

kaba0 4y ago
Would you mind sharing that international forum?

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

Base level compensations for FAANG positions outside of SV are indeed pretty typical and humdrum. But they contain a large equity portion. And over 2-3 years that equity portion ends up being more than the base salary, and you can get pretty close to a Bay Area compensation range. e.g. I was L4 @ Google Waterloo in Canada. Base compensation was nothing special. Good for the immediate area, but not stellar. Yes, nice perks, amazing benefits, decent vacation, good bonus, etc. But after accruing RSUs for a few years you're probably making double what you started with. Especially so if the stock goes up a bunch. Could you make more money working directly for Google in SV? Certainly, but your cost of living would be way higher. But even if you stay home you're likely making at least twice what your peers in the regular local companies are making. Unfortunately it's terrible golden handcuffs, because nobody else in the region will be able to match that compensation package.

mupuff1234 4y ago
That was true for the longest bull run in history, which may or may not continue.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  Sure, though the equity refreshes done at Google are done yearly targeting a $$ range at the current share price, and then vesting over multiple years. So even if the stock goes down it will tend to amortize out to about the same over a number of years, and if the stock goes up a bunch again older grants made "at the bottom" could even net you big results. But of course there's also the chance that not only will Google's stock go down, but their revenues... and generosity... will to. Me, I "lucked out" and sold my RSU at the peak. Though I've been living off the cash proceeds since, so.
- K0SM0S 4y ago
  There are other ways to pay people, using stocks in a bull run is just good allocation of resources. Great companies always find a way to attract talent no matter the situation, even recessionary.

Jacqued 4y ago

In my experience, this is mostly wrong. You don’t get 500-600k Silicon Valley offers in Europe just for being a solid engineer. You do get a total comp that is 2-3x local market if you manage to get into FAANG like companies and even the tier below. I think this is what Gergely is describing. That is still life changing for a lot of engineers, and worth the 3 month grind to get through the interviews. At least it was for me, and this article was a big part of why I made the jump.

jokethrowaway 4y ago
2-3x local market is doable even outside of fangs, usually with more flexibility (remote was a nice perk pre-pandemic) and no bullshit interview. If you pair it with working via your own limited company and get your taxes down to single digits or low double digits you can make as much as salaried people on 300k - and with no equity that can go up or down (sure, and no holidays or sick days if you're the kind of person that does those). Yet, even when you hit 200+k in EU, you're still left thinking you could be making 600k in SV.
- FrenchDevRemote 4y ago
  >(sure, and no holidays or sick days if you're the kind of person that does those). the kind of person that does those? you mean humans?
  - kortilla 4y ago
    Usage of sick days seems to follow a bimodal pattern. There are people that use them up like vacation days for all kinds of reasons and people who very rarely use them (<1 day a year on avg). This was true through my entire career and even back in high school. I think usage of sick days is likely to follow a learned behavior from parents/siblings growing up.
    - stkdump 4y ago
      So what if you are sick? You are using your normal vacation days?

202206241203 4y ago

> Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. I don't think Germany has at-will employment. Plus all the taxes to feed people who don't want to work.

dreinhardt 4y ago
> Plus all the taxes to feed people who don't want to work. That’s a very bad representation of the German reality of long term unemployment caused by the lack of availability of jobs. The majority of welfare recipients in Germany are working people who are underpaid and/or underemployed. What your taxes are really paying for is keeping the economic system with the largest low-wage sector in Europe going. Think about that before yapping about „people who don’t want to work“.