5 ms·

This also comes into play with the current discussion of EVs. People will say, "you don't need that 500 miles of range." Or, "just plug the EV in at night - y

This also comes into play with the current discussion of EVs. People will say, "you don't need that 500 miles of range." Or, "just plug the EV in at night - you don't have to wait at the charger." That probably works well for average use cases, but not for the outliers. The great thing about ICE vehicles is you generally don't have to worry about non-average use cases. To reach parity, EVs will need to be chargable in 5 minutes from empty to achieve 500 miles of range, at 5 degrees F, with 5 year old batteries. If you live in California, that may seem like an extreme use case, but it's pretty normal around here.

gonzo41 4y ago
If the EV market could agree on a battery size and configuration, then maybe doing a full swap of a battery could be done like an f1 Pitstop. Similar to those electric scooters in Asia, Just imagine if you rolled over a pitstop and had the battery quicky taken out from below the car and then a new battery placed back in. That sort of system could change the economics of building an ev as you could move to a model where users don't really own the battery they rent it for a while until they need a swap. Or electric cargo bicycles. Because every bike on the road is one less massive car.
- cguess 4y ago
  Battery degradation would limit expectations. "Oh shit, I got one of those old batteries that will only get me 150 miles when I was hoping for 200 to get to my mother-in-law's for Thanksgiving" isn't going to work.
  - lillecarl 4y ago
    Could be solved by measuring how much charge it takes and bills you for that + some min charge for the change service would be the price, a bit more complex but I reckon the swap service could be made simple enough that it's low cost.
  - ljosifov 4y ago
    Then you are going to drive 150 miles and spend extra 3 mins to change the battery again - no? Not a big deal, and certainly not a deal breaker. Nah - the pit-stop type battery replacement is the obvious solution to most EV charging problems, but we humans can not execute it. It requires level of coordination and cooperation between companies that we are not easily capable of right now.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      Battery replacement works only if you make compromises. EVs are currently designed to put batteries where they fit, a standard battery means much less batteries and thus much less range. Second cars come in different sizes, a swappable battery needs to fit in the smallest car, leaving larger cars with a much to small battery. Sure it can work, but overall I have to call it a bad compromise.
- PaulRobinson 4y ago
  You’re making the mistake of average use cases. Your first idea requires new, expensive infrastructure that will need maintenance due to mechanical parts. Given charging points are regularly broken at the moment, I don’t have high hopes. But even if we overcame that: it’s impractical in almost every major city in the World, because you’d have to drastically alter existing spaces, such as filling stations. This might work in your context, and many others. It might even work for the “average” use case. But for 75% of the developed World (where the EV market is the fastest growing), I’m not convinced. And the electric cargo bike argument - or bikes in general - work great for the “average” journey, but not many people actually take that journey. My most frequent drive is 200+ miles in normally wet or cold weather. My next most frequent is 15+ miles in baking hot Summer sunshine in a heavily congested city where I need aircon. Neither would be pleasant on a bike - electric or not. And I think that’s the point of this discussion: engineering for averages is a terrible idea, and most EVs don’t work for most journey profiles for most of the World’s drivers today, compared to ICE
- spoonjim 4y ago
  I don’t think this will ever happen. You will need to inventory $30,000 parts to sell them for $30,005 (if $5 is the cost of the charge). And the cars will have to have tons of design compromises.
- giaour 4y ago
  There was an Israeli startup that tried this out ~10 years ago: https://jalopnik.com/battery-swapping-israeli-startup-better-place-is-dead-510139169 https://jalopnik.com/battery-swapping-israeli-startup-better... One problem was that they had chosen one model of car to simplify battery inventory, but the car was not a good fit for their initial markets.
- nradov 4y ago
  Nio is doing battery swapping successfully with their EVs in China. https://www.nio.com/blog/current-state-ev-battery-swapping https://www.nio.com/blog/current-state-ev-battery-swapping
- Hellbanevil 4y ago
CogitoCogito 4y ago
EVs don't need to entirely displace ICEs. Many zealots think so, but it isn't even necessary from an environmental perspective. But I think the main complication comes to ownership. Are you going to own an EV and an ICE? Or are you doing to own and EV and rent an ICE when needed? Or the other way around? And even if you rent it can become complicated. Last weekend I rented a car and it needed to be an EV since I booked it late and that's all that was late. I personally would rather not have dealt with the extra complexity of charging it compared to just putting gas in the tank. But really I thin the issue is that if we move to EVs it kind of forces some sort of vehicle specialization where it previously didn't feel as necessary. That opens a big can of worms when it comes to changes in lifestyle for many people.
- bluGill 4y ago
  I'm surprised you can rent an EV. Few hotels have a place to charge them, so there goes the idea of plugging them in overnight, which is the main advantage of EVs
  - zoover2020 4y ago
    In the US maybe. Lot's of countries which offer charge capabilities for EVs everywhere, even at hotels (The Netherlands, Norway etc.).
    - hef19898 4y ago
      I've even seen fast chargers at petrol stations in Tunsia this year, all the way down in the South not to far from the Lybian border.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    You can go to a normal super-charger while you have breakfast or whatever.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  You know what else is going to open a big can of worms when it comes to changes in lifestyle for many people? Climate change.
ajconway 4y ago
Alternatively, the charging infrastructure needs to evolve. Even considering the currently available technology, imagine having 150kW chargers in place of every gas station that we have right now. Install ~20 chargers in the most busy locations, and the average time spent at the station will no be much higher than getting gas.
formerly_proven 4y ago
Frankly I do not want to share streets with people who drive 800 km, refuel and drive even more after that in one go.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  [flagged]
- jmillikin 4y ago
  There's a joke that goes something like "To an American 200 years is a long time, to a European 200km is a long distance". Driving from San Diego to Sacramento is about 800km; in good weather and light traffic you could cover that in 7 or 8 hours. Get up early, drive that first leg, stop for lunch, then keep going (e.g. towards Portland or Seattle). Of course, an American would usually stop for gas before hitting empty because we're used to the idea of "No food or fuel next 2 hours".
  - jfk13 4y ago
    A couple of decades ago, when I was young(er) and (more) foolish, I several times did the drive between Columbia, SC and Dallas, TX in a single day. It was just a touch over a thousand miles. Idiocy.
    - k__ 4y ago
      My grandfather drove us to holiday from Germany to Spain every year. Took 2-3 days. He slept a few hours in the car at night.
    - h2odragon 4y ago
      I once did a whirlwind trip from TN to NM, UT, CO, and back to TN. 5,000+ miles in 5 days. Average speed over 40MPH with some sleep and some meetings included. Idiocy, indeed.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    7 or 8 hours is a pretty long day driving for one person. But people do switch off and, even in New England where distances tend to be shorter, a 5 hour drive up to somewhere like Maine is hardly exceptional.
Andys 4y ago
I thought this until I looked at the histogram of private car trip lengths. The vast majority of trips are very short. Its unlikely they're all being done on the same day.
- tomohawk 4y ago
  Next time you have to bug out because there's a hurricane coming, and it's after your commute, so you haven't had time to charge the car, are you going to be regretting your choice? It's 95F out, humid, and your car AC is going full bore as you creep along in traffic to get out of the area. Yes, that is not an average situation, but there's a lot of peace of mind not having to think about it at all. By the time I get down to 250 miles in my ICE, I can fill up in 5 minutes, but still have a very comfortable margin for anything that may happen. And, worst case, if I run out of gas (never happened in my lifetime)? I can get a gallon of fuel and drive away. How does that work with an EV?
  - k__ 4y ago
    Sounds like a very US specific problem to me.
    - seansmccullough 4y ago
      A reasonable US-specific problem. EV limitations like this are are why millions of people aren't currently interested in buying EVs. Compared to ICE, and EV car is more expensive, and essentially has the "road trip" feature removed.
namdnay 4y ago
I think the main mistake as concerns EVS (and many other environmental questions) is the belief that tomorrow will have exactly the same comforts as yesterday. If having to wait 45mn every 400km is the biggest price you’re paying for the carbon transition, you’re very lucky

gonzo41 4y ago

If the EV market could agree on a battery size and configuration, then maybe doing a full swap of a battery could be done like an f1 Pitstop. Similar to those electric scooters in Asia, Just imagine if you rolled over a pitstop and had the battery quicky taken out from below the car and then a new battery placed back in. That sort of system could change the economics of building an ev as you could move to a model where users don't really own the battery they rent it for a while until they need a swap. Or electric cargo bicycles. Because every bike on the road is one less massive car.

cguess 4y ago
Battery degradation would limit expectations. "Oh shit, I got one of those old batteries that will only get me 150 miles when I was hoping for 200 to get to my mother-in-law's for Thanksgiving" isn't going to work.
- lillecarl 4y ago
  Could be solved by measuring how much charge it takes and bills you for that + some min charge for the change service would be the price, a bit more complex but I reckon the swap service could be made simple enough that it's low cost.
- ljosifov 4y ago
  Then you are going to drive 150 miles and spend extra 3 mins to change the battery again - no? Not a big deal, and certainly not a deal breaker. Nah - the pit-stop type battery replacement is the obvious solution to most EV charging problems, but we humans can not execute it. It requires level of coordination and cooperation between companies that we are not easily capable of right now.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Battery replacement works only if you make compromises. EVs are currently designed to put batteries where they fit, a standard battery means much less batteries and thus much less range. Second cars come in different sizes, a swappable battery needs to fit in the smallest car, leaving larger cars with a much to small battery. Sure it can work, but overall I have to call it a bad compromise.
PaulRobinson 4y ago
You’re making the mistake of average use cases. Your first idea requires new, expensive infrastructure that will need maintenance due to mechanical parts. Given charging points are regularly broken at the moment, I don’t have high hopes. But even if we overcame that: it’s impractical in almost every major city in the World, because you’d have to drastically alter existing spaces, such as filling stations. This might work in your context, and many others. It might even work for the “average” use case. But for 75% of the developed World (where the EV market is the fastest growing), I’m not convinced. And the electric cargo bike argument - or bikes in general - work great for the “average” journey, but not many people actually take that journey. My most frequent drive is 200+ miles in normally wet or cold weather. My next most frequent is 15+ miles in baking hot Summer sunshine in a heavily congested city where I need aircon. Neither would be pleasant on a bike - electric or not. And I think that’s the point of this discussion: engineering for averages is a terrible idea, and most EVs don’t work for most journey profiles for most of the World’s drivers today, compared to ICE
spoonjim 4y ago
I don’t think this will ever happen. You will need to inventory $30,000 parts to sell them for $30,005 (if $5 is the cost of the charge). And the cars will have to have tons of design compromises.
giaour 4y ago
There was an Israeli startup that tried this out ~10 years ago: https://jalopnik.com/battery-swapping-israeli-startup-better-place-is-dead-510139169 https://jalopnik.com/battery-swapping-israeli-startup-better... One problem was that they had chosen one model of car to simplify battery inventory, but the car was not a good fit for their initial markets.
nradov 4y ago
Nio is doing battery swapping successfully with their EVs in China. https://www.nio.com/blog/current-state-ev-battery-swapping https://www.nio.com/blog/current-state-ev-battery-swapping
Hellbanevil 4y ago

CogitoCogito 4y ago

EVs don't need to entirely displace ICEs. Many zealots think so, but it isn't even necessary from an environmental perspective. But I think the main complication comes to ownership. Are you going to own an EV and an ICE? Or are you doing to own and EV and rent an ICE when needed? Or the other way around? And even if you rent it can become complicated. Last weekend I rented a car and it needed to be an EV since I booked it late and that's all that was late. I personally would rather not have dealt with the extra complexity of charging it compared to just putting gas in the tank. But really I thin the issue is that if we move to EVs it kind of forces some sort of vehicle specialization where it previously didn't feel as necessary. That opens a big can of worms when it comes to changes in lifestyle for many people.

bluGill 4y ago
I'm surprised you can rent an EV. Few hotels have a place to charge them, so there goes the idea of plugging them in overnight, which is the main advantage of EVs
- zoover2020 4y ago
  In the US maybe. Lot's of countries which offer charge capabilities for EVs everywhere, even at hotels (The Netherlands, Norway etc.).
  - hef19898 4y ago
    I've even seen fast chargers at petrol stations in Tunsia this year, all the way down in the South not to far from the Lybian border.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  You can go to a normal super-charger while you have breakfast or whatever.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
You know what else is going to open a big can of worms when it comes to changes in lifestyle for many people? Climate change.

ajconway 4y ago

Alternatively, the charging infrastructure needs to evolve. Even considering the currently available technology, imagine having 150kW chargers in place of every gas station that we have right now. Install ~20 chargers in the most busy locations, and the average time spent at the station will no be much higher than getting gas.

formerly_proven 4y ago

Frankly I do not want to share streets with people who drive 800 km, refuel and drive even more after that in one go.

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
[flagged]
jmillikin 4y ago
There's a joke that goes something like "To an American 200 years is a long time, to a European 200km is a long distance". Driving from San Diego to Sacramento is about 800km; in good weather and light traffic you could cover that in 7 or 8 hours. Get up early, drive that first leg, stop for lunch, then keep going (e.g. towards Portland or Seattle). Of course, an American would usually stop for gas before hitting empty because we're used to the idea of "No food or fuel next 2 hours".
- jfk13 4y ago
  A couple of decades ago, when I was young(er) and (more) foolish, I several times did the drive between Columbia, SC and Dallas, TX in a single day. It was just a touch over a thousand miles. Idiocy.
  - k__ 4y ago
    My grandfather drove us to holiday from Germany to Spain every year. Took 2-3 days. He slept a few hours in the car at night.
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    I once did a whirlwind trip from TN to NM, UT, CO, and back to TN. 5,000+ miles in 5 days. Average speed over 40MPH with some sleep and some meetings included. Idiocy, indeed.
- ghaff 4y ago
  7 or 8 hours is a pretty long day driving for one person. But people do switch off and, even in New England where distances tend to be shorter, a 5 hour drive up to somewhere like Maine is hardly exceptional.

Andys 4y ago

I thought this until I looked at the histogram of private car trip lengths. The vast majority of trips are very short. Its unlikely they're all being done on the same day.

tomohawk 4y ago
Next time you have to bug out because there's a hurricane coming, and it's after your commute, so you haven't had time to charge the car, are you going to be regretting your choice? It's 95F out, humid, and your car AC is going full bore as you creep along in traffic to get out of the area. Yes, that is not an average situation, but there's a lot of peace of mind not having to think about it at all. By the time I get down to 250 miles in my ICE, I can fill up in 5 minutes, but still have a very comfortable margin for anything that may happen. And, worst case, if I run out of gas (never happened in my lifetime)? I can get a gallon of fuel and drive away. How does that work with an EV?
- k__ 4y ago
  Sounds like a very US specific problem to me.
  - seansmccullough 4y ago
    A reasonable US-specific problem. EV limitations like this are are why millions of people aren't currently interested in buying EVs. Compared to ICE, and EV car is more expensive, and essentially has the "road trip" feature removed.

namdnay 4y ago

I think the main mistake as concerns EVS (and many other environmental questions) is the belief that tomorrow will have exactly the same comforts as yesterday. If having to wait 45mn every 400km is the biggest price you’re paying for the carbon transition, you’re very lucky