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I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who just wants a bank to be a bank. I've been with the same relatively small regional bank for 30 years. I have a checki

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who just wants a bank to be a bank. I've been with the same relatively small regional bank for 30 years. I have a checking account, savings account and that's it. They've been stable this entire time, and I've never worried my money was going to disappear. As another sign of being an old man, I'm old enough to remember the phrase "as safe as money in the bank". You see, when I was a kid, the banks had been operating under decades of strong regulation by the FDIC and other agencies, and were widely considered to be a safe place to put your money. Not that the banking sector hasn't seen its share of problems in that time. From the S&L crisis, to the home mortgage lending fraud that lead to the big crash. But in all that time, with just a little effort, you could put at least some of your money in a regular local bank, and expect it to be there tomorrow. Bank local! If you want to speculatively invest, that's fine. But keep some money in a local bank so that you can pay your bills next month.

MarcoZavala 4y ago
[dead]
alexjplant 4y ago
Aren't retail and investment banking separate spaces? Aren't depository accounts insured to the tune of a quarter of a million dollars by the FDIC? Isn't Voyager a crypto exchange? I tend to keep my money in local credit unions as well, but I'm struggling to understand how this discussion is germane to Voyager's actions here. EDIT: See https://www.investvoyager.com/blog/voyager-is-now-fdic-insured/ https://www.investvoyager.com/blog/voyager-is-now-fdic-insur...
- iskander 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bl... >the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999...repealed part of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933, removing barriers in the market among banking companies, securities companies, and insurance companies that prohibited any one institution from acting as any combination of an investment bank, a commercial bank, and an insurance company FDIC insurance ends up being the main guarantee of safety, especially in the modern era of 0% reserve requirements.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    >especially in the modern era of 0% reserve requirements. Total red herring; reserve requirements went away but they were irrelevant because banks were holding massively in excess of the required reserves in any case.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > especially in the modern era of 0% reserve requirements They’ve been replaced with capital requirements, which make a lot more sense in modern finance than reserve requirements.
    - iskander 4y ago
      What's the current state of those capital requirements in US banks? Is this the latest requirement? https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/bcreg20210805a.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/bcre... (4.5%) And how do banks actually measure up to this minimum?
      - tick_tock_tick 4y ago
        The Fed runs stress tests all the time and currently the banks are preforming perfectly during them.
        Jon_Lowtek 4y ago
        which means the tests are not stressing. That is a good thing as they test for conditions that previously resulted in crashes. But it could also be a bad thing if the banks adapted to formally pass tests while straining their business with schemes that are overlooked
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        We do know, at least from the last crisis, that so far the US stress tests have been effective at accurately gauging bank strength. (This is in contrast to the ECB stress tests during the Euro crisis, where repeatedly banks that had passed a stress test ended up needing bailouts or falling over.)
- thr0wawayf00 4y ago
  Because Voyager has tried to position itself as a crypto-based alternative to banking. From the front page: > Build your wealth > Earn up to 12% annual rewards. Beat your bank by earning top rewards each month on 39 digital assets with no lockups. They explicitly touted their benefits over using a traditional bank before they issued this notice. They also issued debit cards that they are now deactivating. Fundamentally, crypto has staked its future on replacing the banking system, citing various issues with the Fed, etc. But the regulatory environment in banking (the FDIC) creates a much more stable environment in which to transact than these platforms do.
  - teraflop 4y ago
    In particular, the Voyager home page says that "USD" and "cash" deposits are FDIC-insured, while the debit card landing page talks about how you can earn rewards while "spend[ing] USD Coin like cash". I can easily imagine a naive consumer coming away from this with the incorrect impression that USD Coin deposits, being equivalent to USD, are insured to the same extent.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- adrr 4y ago
  They can be the same. Voyager looks like they have their sweep account as a brokered deposit with an FDIC insured bank. This similar to other investment firms. I think Etrade lets you have up to $1M for FDIC insurance spread across 4 banks but you have to set it otherwise it sits in a money market or equiv. Good thing is that voyager shouldn't be able to touch money in the sweep accounts.
captainkrtek 4y ago
Couldn’t agree more. Been banking with a not-for-profit credit union for over 15 years. Never been charged unreasonable fees, great customer service, solid and simple app/website. I don’t want banking to be “exciting”
- ansible 4y ago
  > I don’t want banking to be “exciting” Yes, exactly. My bank makes money off of me every month, even though I have the "free" checking account. They offer an historically low interest rate on the savings account, and I know they're making money off that too. But I'm OK with all that.
reaperducer 4y ago
You probably also remember when bank buildings were designed to look like historic buildings, in order to foster a sense of trust and permanence. Today, banks look like coffee shops and low-rent cell phone stores.
- Animats 4y ago
  Or like car dealerships, with all those little glass offices.
clintonb 4y ago
Voyager may have marketed itself as a bank of some form, but it was never a bank.
caiomassan 4y ago
i am not even 40 and got my money robbed from the bank by the government twice. depends where you live, a bank is not that good of a place to keep your savings.
- alangibson 4y ago
  We're definitely going to need details on this.
  - mh- 4y ago
    from the parent comment > depends where you live I infer they live somewhere without a stable financial system and/or government.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      Nah the IRS has frozen bank accounts multiple times merely because people owned cash businesses where they made sub-10k deposits on the regular without any intention to structure it. It's frighteningly easy to lose access to your bank account in the US.
      - mh- 4y ago
        But that's not at all what happened in the thread we're replying to..
        notch656a 4y ago
        >But that's not at all what happened in the thread we're replying to.. Don't think you have the information to say that. OP didn't say what happened. I don't think we can say anything in particular is exactly what did happen without more information. Unless you don't consider the US a place with "a stable financial system and/or government" -- which may be accurate -- then this very well could have taken place in the US. I'm not sure you can infer where this took place.
  - 4y ago
barnbuilder 4y ago
You may feel like your accounts are stable and nothing is disappearing but by CPI inflation calculations (https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm), any money you had in that account 30 years ago has lost half its buying power. If you want to keep the money that you have worked for over the long term, your checking and savings account are not going to cut it.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I don't think the GP is saying that the don't do any investment whatsoever.
- addcninblue 4y ago
  You're saying that the value of your money in real terms is depreciating. OP is saying the nominal value persists. With banking, people care about nominal value.
- EGreg 4y ago
  Half in 30 years? That’s pretty good! Ethereum fell by that much in a couple weeks. On the way up in a bull market it’s all roses, but in a bear market, these things can crash hard. Money losing value gradually — Demurrage — makes people actually spend money rather than hoard it. If you want the money to earn interest, you will have to take some risk. Invest in some assets. Usually, stocks or real estate or (finally thanks to the JOBS act) new startups. I don’t know why people have “fat bank accounts”. Money isn’t meant to be stored. That’s a racket by the banks, along with the idea that you have to buy a home instead of renting. If you can rent and buy other assets that you understand better than real estate, then do that. This is not magic .. money has to come from somewhere. It usually comes from banks themselves — who lend it to people and businesses who believe that they can pay back MORE money ! The only way everyone can pay back more money than is in existence is if the money supply is increased in the meantime. So inflation happens. The only alternative is having lots of people default and restructure their loans to owe less. This is what Ray Dalio says can be “a beautiful deleveraging”. I don’t buy it… Learn how it all works: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0
NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
I invite you to look at the list of failed banks provided by the FDIC: https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/failed-bank-list/ https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/fai... Notice that the vast majority of these are smaller, local or regional banks.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Pointing to the list of failed banks from the website of the government agency that insures them and makes customers whole doesn't convey as strong of a point as you might have intended.
  - AmericanChopper 4y ago
    > makes customers whole *As long as whole is less than $250k.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Yes, that's the worst case - however in the real world the FDIC and the OTS (Office of Thrift Supervision) does their best to ensure nobody loses any amount of money regardless of their account balance. In the case of WaMu in 2008 for instance, the OTS took possession of the bank and sold it to JPMorgan Chase. They didn't draw on the deposit insurance fund and everyone stayed whole. [1] "According to FDIC spokeswoman LaJuan Williams-Young, 'No depositor has ever lost a penny of insured deposits since the FDIC was created in 1933.'" [2, 3] [edit] Looks like I found one case where a bank failed and a total of $500,000 in uninsured deposits (not in a single account, in total) were forfeit. [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Mutual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Mutual [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Deposit_Insurance_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Deposit_Insurance_Corp... [3] https://www.magnifymoney.com/banking/deposits-bank-failures/ https://www.magnifymoney.com/banking/deposits-bank-failures/ [4] https://www.depositaccounts.com/blog/bank-failures/#p21332 https://www.depositaccounts.com/blog/bank-failures/#p21332
      - 4y ago
rootsudo 4y ago
"as safe as money in the bank" I think you're conflating these defi platforms as banks, they are not - they are risk ladden investment platforms as listed on the website itself... "2022 Voyager Digital, LLC. VOYAGER is a trademark of Voyager IP, LLC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Voyager Digital Ltd. All services provided by Voyager Digital, LLC, a FinCEN registered company. Investments are subject to market risk. NMLS ID: 1730854" I also don't see them saying they are a bank, anywhere on their about me investor page: "About Voyager Voyager Digital Ltd. is a fast-growing, publicly traded cryptocurrency platform in the United States founded in 2018 to bring choice, transparency, and cost efficiency to the marketplace. Voyager offers a secure way to trade over 100 different crypto assets using its easy-to-use mobile application, and earn rewards up to 12 percent annually on more than 40 cryptocurrencies. Through its subsidiary Coinify ApS, Voyager provides crypto payment solutions for both consumers and merchants around the globe." https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview/ https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview/ But I do see they link up instantly and have their own bank account setup under a "real bank" https://assets.investvoyager.com/5ykew4idKrAVhJIu https://assets.investvoyager.com/5ykew4idKrAVhJIu tl;dr don't call a bank, a bank when it never was a bank.
- ansible 4y ago
  As /u/thr0wawayf00 mentions, they issued debit cards and allowed people to do direct deposits into their accounts. So people were using it like a bank for their ordinary day-to-day financial transactions. I, personally, would never have considered it a bank (or had any trust for anything crypto-related in general), but other people seemed to treat it like a bank.
phkahler 4y ago
If we get interest rates back up to better levels (IMHO 6 to 7 percent mortgages) they might even be able to pay interest on savings without selling loans! Unfortunately lowering rates is used to "fix" the economy. This is a failed strategy.
- chii 4y ago
  > they might even be able to pay interest on savings without selling loans! loans are the source of revenue. Selling more of it is the goal of a bank.
  - phkahler 4y ago
    "Selling loans" is something that happens after loans are made. Much like you can sell a bond that has already been issued but has not matured.
paulpauper 4y ago
Banks have never been that safe for large sums of money. Not only do banks occasionally get robbed, but also safe deposit boxes get accidentally cleaned, and creditors and the govt. can have your accounts levied.
throw34 4y ago
I get your point but was Voyager a bank? https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview “ Voyager Digital Ltd. is a fast-growing, publicly traded cryptocurrency platform in the United States founded in 2018 to bring choice, transparency, and cost efficiency to the marketplace. ”
- jrumbut 4y ago
  Never heard of them before but they talked about direct deposits and a debit card on the page linked above so if they aren't a bank they are acting a lot like one.
logicalmonster 4y ago
> I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who just wants a bank to be a bank. 1) One big issue is that there's a case of bad incentives that are growing even worse. As I see it, the big problem emerges when you really start to understand what inflation does to your savings and how inflation operates like a stealth tax, particularly on the poor/middle class who have less avenues to shield their wealth through property or other assets that might retain or expand their value in the long term. The paltry ~0.05% (not 5%, but a fraction of a percent) interest rate you might get from your savings account feels like somebody is pissing on your face when inflation is reportedly in high single digits, but probably higher. You end up being robbed of more purchasing power the more responsible you try and be and the more of a saver you are in a high inflation environment. Fix this systemic problem with inflation first. This is why a lot of people are searching out higher and higher returns, even with some risk. You're being robbed no matter what happens unless you beat out inflation. 2) I'm taking a guess here, but as you state you're a bit of an older man, you might be speaking from an advantageous perspective of growing up in an era where buying a home and relative economic success was comparatively easier to achieve. It's a little easier to play it extremely low risk, even if you're losing some money, if you've already achieved a satisfactory outcome in life with home ownership. For many complex reasons, the younger generations here who are taking bigger risks have a far harder time achieving the same level of relative success as the older generations have achieved.
- lottin 4y ago
  I don't think people put money in these crypto high-yield investments because they love risk. The majority of people I have talked to were unsophisticated investors who didn't know what they were doing, and were under the impression that the investment was safe.
Pasorrijer 4y ago
This is a very American thing. As much as our Canadian banks gouge us, and lead to a lack of choice and almost monopolistic conditions... Our banking system is so ridiculously stable compared to the US it's not even funny. I look down south in confusion because I just don't understand how you manage in your system
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  Not sure what you mean. I’ve had the same account with Chase roughly since I became an adult (I’m 32 now). It seems to be perfectly stable and work fine.
sjtindell 4y ago
Personally I think this is an artifact of a time when there were other ways for you to make money.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sytelus 4y ago
I hate to break it to you but vast majority of small regional banks are scams. I learned this hard way trying to support local bank instead of big ones. It turns out these banks are run by bunch of private equity firms for the sole purpose of lone manipulation. After they serve their purpose, they “almost” go out of business until another equity firm picks it up for cheap for another rinse repeat cycle. My local bank changes hands about every 2-3 years. As a bonus you get crappiest website with giant security issues. Your money is safe there only below federal limit. As long as banks are concerned, always chose too big to fail ones.
KronisLV 4y ago
> Bank local! If you want to speculatively invest, that's fine. But keep some money in a local bank so that you can pay your bills next month. Hmm, shouldn't you also consider having accounts in multiple banks, even if they're relatively local ones? For example, in my country there's two banks that I guess are the most popular ones: SEB and Swedbank. While they both have a history of being reliable, it's not unheard of that people's bank details might be compromised, breaches happen, or outages/cyber attacks that might disrupt/slow down service in whatever capacity. While a part of these factors might not be applicable to people who practice good information security, it's not like you cannot write them off entirely. Furthermore, I do think that there was a bank that actually went bankrupt a number of years ago, people couldn't access all of their funds etc. So treating banks like any other system - where avoiding a single point of failure might just be worth it in the face of significant consequences should anything bad happen, seems like the right thing to do. Then again, one might also just buy gold and bury it in their back yard (provided that they own the land), depending on what their risk tolerance is towards certain events. Not even kidding about this. If you can diversify your investments, doing the same for where/how you store your money or other assets just seems smart, even if a bit cumbersome.
ricardobayes 4y ago
Voyager was never a bank, LLCs can't be 'banks'.

MarcoZavala 4y ago

[dead]

alexjplant 4y ago

Aren't retail and investment banking separate spaces? Aren't depository accounts insured to the tune of a quarter of a million dollars by the FDIC? Isn't Voyager a crypto exchange? I tend to keep my money in local credit unions as well, but I'm struggling to understand how this discussion is germane to Voyager's actions here. EDIT: See https://www.investvoyager.com/blog/voyager-is-now-fdic-insured/ https://www.investvoyager.com/blog/voyager-is-now-fdic-insur...

iskander 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bl... >the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999...repealed part of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933, removing barriers in the market among banking companies, securities companies, and insurance companies that prohibited any one institution from acting as any combination of an investment bank, a commercial bank, and an insurance company FDIC insurance ends up being the main guarantee of safety, especially in the modern era of 0% reserve requirements.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  >especially in the modern era of 0% reserve requirements. Total red herring; reserve requirements went away but they were irrelevant because banks were holding massively in excess of the required reserves in any case.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > especially in the modern era of 0% reserve requirements They’ve been replaced with capital requirements, which make a lot more sense in modern finance than reserve requirements.
  - iskander 4y ago
    What's the current state of those capital requirements in US banks? Is this the latest requirement? https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/bcreg20210805a.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/bcre... (4.5%) And how do banks actually measure up to this minimum?
    - tick_tock_tick 4y ago
      The Fed runs stress tests all the time and currently the banks are preforming perfectly during them.
      - Jon_Lowtek 4y ago
        which means the tests are not stressing. That is a good thing as they test for conditions that previously resulted in crashes. But it could also be a bad thing if the banks adapted to formally pass tests while straining their business with schemes that are overlooked
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        We do know, at least from the last crisis, that so far the US stress tests have been effective at accurately gauging bank strength. (This is in contrast to the ECB stress tests during the Euro crisis, where repeatedly banks that had passed a stress test ended up needing bailouts or falling over.)
thr0wawayf00 4y ago
Because Voyager has tried to position itself as a crypto-based alternative to banking. From the front page: > Build your wealth > Earn up to 12% annual rewards. Beat your bank by earning top rewards each month on 39 digital assets with no lockups. They explicitly touted their benefits over using a traditional bank before they issued this notice. They also issued debit cards that they are now deactivating. Fundamentally, crypto has staked its future on replacing the banking system, citing various issues with the Fed, etc. But the regulatory environment in banking (the FDIC) creates a much more stable environment in which to transact than these platforms do.
- teraflop 4y ago
  In particular, the Voyager home page says that "USD" and "cash" deposits are FDIC-insured, while the debit card landing page talks about how you can earn rewards while "spend[ing] USD Coin like cash". I can easily imagine a naive consumer coming away from this with the incorrect impression that USD Coin deposits, being equivalent to USD, are insured to the same extent.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
adrr 4y ago
They can be the same. Voyager looks like they have their sweep account as a brokered deposit with an FDIC insured bank. This similar to other investment firms. I think Etrade lets you have up to $1M for FDIC insurance spread across 4 banks but you have to set it otherwise it sits in a money market or equiv. Good thing is that voyager shouldn't be able to touch money in the sweep accounts.

captainkrtek 4y ago

Couldn’t agree more. Been banking with a not-for-profit credit union for over 15 years. Never been charged unreasonable fees, great customer service, solid and simple app/website. I don’t want banking to be “exciting”

ansible 4y ago
> I don’t want banking to be “exciting” Yes, exactly. My bank makes money off of me every month, even though I have the "free" checking account. They offer an historically low interest rate on the savings account, and I know they're making money off that too. But I'm OK with all that.

reaperducer 4y ago

You probably also remember when bank buildings were designed to look like historic buildings, in order to foster a sense of trust and permanence. Today, banks look like coffee shops and low-rent cell phone stores.

Animats 4y ago
Or like car dealerships, with all those little glass offices.

clintonb 4y ago

Voyager may have marketed itself as a bank of some form, but it was never a bank.

caiomassan 4y ago

i am not even 40 and got my money robbed from the bank by the government twice. depends where you live, a bank is not that good of a place to keep your savings.

alangibson 4y ago
We're definitely going to need details on this.
- mh- 4y ago
  from the parent comment > depends where you live I infer they live somewhere without a stable financial system and/or government.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Nah the IRS has frozen bank accounts multiple times merely because people owned cash businesses where they made sub-10k deposits on the regular without any intention to structure it. It's frighteningly easy to lose access to your bank account in the US.
    - mh- 4y ago
      But that's not at all what happened in the thread we're replying to..
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >But that's not at all what happened in the thread we're replying to.. Don't think you have the information to say that. OP didn't say what happened. I don't think we can say anything in particular is exactly what did happen without more information. Unless you don't consider the US a place with "a stable financial system and/or government" -- which may be accurate -- then this very well could have taken place in the US. I'm not sure you can infer where this took place.
- 4y ago

barnbuilder 4y ago

You may feel like your accounts are stable and nothing is disappearing but by CPI inflation calculations (https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm), any money you had in that account 30 years ago has lost half its buying power. If you want to keep the money that you have worked for over the long term, your checking and savings account are not going to cut it.

woodruffw 4y ago
I don't think the GP is saying that the don't do any investment whatsoever.
addcninblue 4y ago
You're saying that the value of your money in real terms is depreciating. OP is saying the nominal value persists. With banking, people care about nominal value.
EGreg 4y ago
Half in 30 years? That’s pretty good! Ethereum fell by that much in a couple weeks. On the way up in a bull market it’s all roses, but in a bear market, these things can crash hard. Money losing value gradually — Demurrage — makes people actually spend money rather than hoard it. If you want the money to earn interest, you will have to take some risk. Invest in some assets. Usually, stocks or real estate or (finally thanks to the JOBS act) new startups. I don’t know why people have “fat bank accounts”. Money isn’t meant to be stored. That’s a racket by the banks, along with the idea that you have to buy a home instead of renting. If you can rent and buy other assets that you understand better than real estate, then do that. This is not magic .. money has to come from somewhere. It usually comes from banks themselves — who lend it to people and businesses who believe that they can pay back MORE money ! The only way everyone can pay back more money than is in existence is if the money supply is increased in the meantime. So inflation happens. The only alternative is having lots of people default and restructure their loans to owe less. This is what Ray Dalio says can be “a beautiful deleveraging”. I don’t buy it… Learn how it all works: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago

I invite you to look at the list of failed banks provided by the FDIC: https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/failed-bank-list/ https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/fai... Notice that the vast majority of these are smaller, local or regional banks.

woodruffw 4y ago
Pointing to the list of failed banks from the website of the government agency that insures them and makes customers whole doesn't convey as strong of a point as you might have intended.
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  > makes customers whole *As long as whole is less than $250k.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Yes, that's the worst case - however in the real world the FDIC and the OTS (Office of Thrift Supervision) does their best to ensure nobody loses any amount of money regardless of their account balance. In the case of WaMu in 2008 for instance, the OTS took possession of the bank and sold it to JPMorgan Chase. They didn't draw on the deposit insurance fund and everyone stayed whole. [1] "According to FDIC spokeswoman LaJuan Williams-Young, 'No depositor has ever lost a penny of insured deposits since the FDIC was created in 1933.'" [2, 3] [edit] Looks like I found one case where a bank failed and a total of $500,000 in uninsured deposits (not in a single account, in total) were forfeit. [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Mutual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Mutual [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Deposit_Insurance_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Deposit_Insurance_Corp... [3] https://www.magnifymoney.com/banking/deposits-bank-failures/ https://www.magnifymoney.com/banking/deposits-bank-failures/ [4] https://www.depositaccounts.com/blog/bank-failures/#p21332 https://www.depositaccounts.com/blog/bank-failures/#p21332
    - 4y ago

rootsudo 4y ago

"as safe as money in the bank" I think you're conflating these defi platforms as banks, they are not - they are risk ladden investment platforms as listed on the website itself... "2022 Voyager Digital, LLC. VOYAGER is a trademark of Voyager IP, LLC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Voyager Digital Ltd. All services provided by Voyager Digital, LLC, a FinCEN registered company. Investments are subject to market risk. NMLS ID: 1730854" I also don't see them saying they are a bank, anywhere on their about me investor page: "About Voyager Voyager Digital Ltd. is a fast-growing, publicly traded cryptocurrency platform in the United States founded in 2018 to bring choice, transparency, and cost efficiency to the marketplace. Voyager offers a secure way to trade over 100 different crypto assets using its easy-to-use mobile application, and earn rewards up to 12 percent annually on more than 40 cryptocurrencies. Through its subsidiary Coinify ApS, Voyager provides crypto payment solutions for both consumers and merchants around the globe." https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview/ https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview/ But I do see they link up instantly and have their own bank account setup under a "real bank" https://assets.investvoyager.com/5ykew4idKrAVhJIu https://assets.investvoyager.com/5ykew4idKrAVhJIu tl;dr don't call a bank, a bank when it never was a bank.

ansible 4y ago
As /u/thr0wawayf00 mentions, they issued debit cards and allowed people to do direct deposits into their accounts. So people were using it like a bank for their ordinary day-to-day financial transactions. I, personally, would never have considered it a bank (or had any trust for anything crypto-related in general), but other people seemed to treat it like a bank.

phkahler 4y ago

If we get interest rates back up to better levels (IMHO 6 to 7 percent mortgages) they might even be able to pay interest on savings without selling loans! Unfortunately lowering rates is used to "fix" the economy. This is a failed strategy.

chii 4y ago
> they might even be able to pay interest on savings without selling loans! loans are the source of revenue. Selling more of it is the goal of a bank.
- phkahler 4y ago
  "Selling loans" is something that happens after loans are made. Much like you can sell a bond that has already been issued but has not matured.

paulpauper 4y ago

Banks have never been that safe for large sums of money. Not only do banks occasionally get robbed, but also safe deposit boxes get accidentally cleaned, and creditors and the govt. can have your accounts levied.

throw34 4y ago

I get your point but was Voyager a bank? https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview https://www.investvoyager.com/investorrelations/overview “ Voyager Digital Ltd. is a fast-growing, publicly traded cryptocurrency platform in the United States founded in 2018 to bring choice, transparency, and cost efficiency to the marketplace. ”

jrumbut 4y ago
Never heard of them before but they talked about direct deposits and a debit card on the page linked above so if they aren't a bank they are acting a lot like one.

logicalmonster 4y ago

> I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who just wants a bank to be a bank. 1) One big issue is that there's a case of bad incentives that are growing even worse. As I see it, the big problem emerges when you really start to understand what inflation does to your savings and how inflation operates like a stealth tax, particularly on the poor/middle class who have less avenues to shield their wealth through property or other assets that might retain or expand their value in the long term. The paltry ~0.05% (not 5%, but a fraction of a percent) interest rate you might get from your savings account feels like somebody is pissing on your face when inflation is reportedly in high single digits, but probably higher. You end up being robbed of more purchasing power the more responsible you try and be and the more of a saver you are in a high inflation environment. Fix this systemic problem with inflation first. This is why a lot of people are searching out higher and higher returns, even with some risk. You're being robbed no matter what happens unless you beat out inflation. 2) I'm taking a guess here, but as you state you're a bit of an older man, you might be speaking from an advantageous perspective of growing up in an era where buying a home and relative economic success was comparatively easier to achieve. It's a little easier to play it extremely low risk, even if you're losing some money, if you've already achieved a satisfactory outcome in life with home ownership. For many complex reasons, the younger generations here who are taking bigger risks have a far harder time achieving the same level of relative success as the older generations have achieved.

lottin 4y ago
I don't think people put money in these crypto high-yield investments because they love risk. The majority of people I have talked to were unsophisticated investors who didn't know what they were doing, and were under the impression that the investment was safe.

Pasorrijer 4y ago

This is a very American thing. As much as our Canadian banks gouge us, and lead to a lack of choice and almost monopolistic conditions... Our banking system is so ridiculously stable compared to the US it's not even funny. I look down south in confusion because I just don't understand how you manage in your system

School-Cotton 4y ago
Not sure what you mean. I’ve had the same account with Chase roughly since I became an adult (I’m 32 now). It seems to be perfectly stable and work fine.

sjtindell 4y ago

Personally I think this is an artifact of a time when there were other ways for you to make money.

deleted 4y ago

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sytelus 4y ago

I hate to break it to you but vast majority of small regional banks are scams. I learned this hard way trying to support local bank instead of big ones. It turns out these banks are run by bunch of private equity firms for the sole purpose of lone manipulation. After they serve their purpose, they “almost” go out of business until another equity firm picks it up for cheap for another rinse repeat cycle. My local bank changes hands about every 2-3 years. As a bonus you get crappiest website with giant security issues. Your money is safe there only below federal limit. As long as banks are concerned, always chose too big to fail ones.

KronisLV 4y ago

> Bank local! If you want to speculatively invest, that's fine. But keep some money in a local bank so that you can pay your bills next month. Hmm, shouldn't you also consider having accounts in multiple banks, even if they're relatively local ones? For example, in my country there's two banks that I guess are the most popular ones: SEB and Swedbank. While they both have a history of being reliable, it's not unheard of that people's bank details might be compromised, breaches happen, or outages/cyber attacks that might disrupt/slow down service in whatever capacity. While a part of these factors might not be applicable to people who practice good information security, it's not like you cannot write them off entirely. Furthermore, I do think that there was a bank that actually went bankrupt a number of years ago, people couldn't access all of their funds etc. So treating banks like any other system - where avoiding a single point of failure might just be worth it in the face of significant consequences should anything bad happen, seems like the right thing to do. Then again, one might also just buy gold and bury it in their back yard (provided that they own the land), depending on what their risk tolerance is towards certain events. Not even kidding about this. If you can diversify your investments, doing the same for where/how you store your money or other assets just seems smart, even if a bit cumbersome.

ricardobayes 4y ago

Voyager was never a bank, LLCs can't be 'banks'.