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Yeah I've noticed this too. It's basically democracy versus a number of disparate countries that have united over their shared dislike of democracy. As for wha

by im3w1l 4y ago

Yeah I've noticed this too. It's basically democracy versus a number of disparate countries that have united over their shared dislike of democracy. As for what Russia and China can offer, there is no great ideology, but what I think they try to sell to their citizens is some combination of nationalism, wealth and solid pragmatic rule. The west is currently wealthier of course, but China is upwardly mobile so it remains to be seen whether they will eventually manage to eclipse say the US on a gdp/capita basis. If they manage to do that, and can contrast their leader with some unpopular US one, they will have a decent value proposition in many eyes.

vkou 4y ago
> Yeah I've noticed this too. It's basically democracy versus a number of disparate countries that have united over their shared dislike of democracy. Those countries haven't 'united over their shared dislike of democracy', they really can't give two rat's asses about how, say, the US, or France governs itself. "They hate us for our freedoms" is as wrong today as it was 21 years ago. What they are 'united' over is being to one extent or another, surrounded by US-aligned systems, that view them as an enemy. Aircraft carriers floating around just off their coasts, US military bases a few hundred miles from their borders, global trade and financial markets being fully dependent on the forbearance of Washington - that sort of thing. (Also, there are countries like, say, India, who have no dog in this fight, and also don't give a rat's ass about how other countries govern themselves, but see it as an opportunity to improve their trade relations - which is why India currently has no issues with forming closer ties with Russia. But, well, we don't want to piss India off, so for the most part, we quietly ignore that.)
- im3w1l 4y ago
  They very much don't want to turn democratic themselves though.
- imtringued 4y ago
  The list of countries that actively supported the Ukraine was so pathetic and embarrassing that you would think it was a bad joke. It is like you gathered a team of super villains but they were actually homeless people in costumes. >global trade and financial markets being fully dependent on the forbearance of Washington - that sort of thing. This feels very disingenuous. Nothings stops those countries from adopting a demurrage currency and outcompeting the US-aligned systems. Of course there is a reason why they don't do that, because demurrage has anti corruption properties. You can't just stash the money you obtained through corruption and maintain purchasing power and extort interest against the will of the rest of the population. Since capital gains approach zero and monopolies can't form, the only way you can keep your wealth is through honest work. Of course I am also assuming a land value tax.
  - vkou 4y ago
    > This feels very disingenuous. Nothings stops those countries from adopting a demurrage currency and outcompeting the US-aligned systems. 1. Russia currently can't make its outstanding foreign debt payments, because a large part of it has been cut off from the global financial system. :) 2. There's also the occasional bit of regime change and freedom bombing that comes around when you consider shifting away from, say, the petrodollar. (Maybe? [1]) There is some credit to your point, but it's not at all unassailable, especially from the perspective of the 'other'. [1] I'm not entirely sold on the claims for a strong causal link between the two, but it does seem like a somewhat weird sort of coincidence.
alexashka 4y ago
Yeah, it's the freedom and democracy everyone else dislikes so much. I mean, not Saudi Arabia, they love freedom. I mean, Yemen. Yemen doesn't like freedom.

by im3w1l 4y ago

vkou 4y ago

> Yeah I've noticed this too. It's basically democracy versus a number of disparate countries that have united over their shared dislike of democracy. Those countries haven't 'united over their shared dislike of democracy', they really can't give two rat's asses about how, say, the US, or France governs itself. "They hate us for our freedoms" is as wrong today as it was 21 years ago. What they are 'united' over is being to one extent or another, surrounded by US-aligned systems, that view them as an enemy. Aircraft carriers floating around just off their coasts, US military bases a few hundred miles from their borders, global trade and financial markets being fully dependent on the forbearance of Washington - that sort of thing. (Also, there are countries like, say, India, who have no dog in this fight, and also don't give a rat's ass about how other countries govern themselves, but see it as an opportunity to improve their trade relations - which is why India currently has no issues with forming closer ties with Russia. But, well, we don't want to piss India off, so for the most part, we quietly ignore that.)

im3w1l 4y ago
They very much don't want to turn democratic themselves though.
imtringued 4y ago
The list of countries that actively supported the Ukraine was so pathetic and embarrassing that you would think it was a bad joke. It is like you gathered a team of super villains but they were actually homeless people in costumes. >global trade and financial markets being fully dependent on the forbearance of Washington - that sort of thing. This feels very disingenuous. Nothings stops those countries from adopting a demurrage currency and outcompeting the US-aligned systems. Of course there is a reason why they don't do that, because demurrage has anti corruption properties. You can't just stash the money you obtained through corruption and maintain purchasing power and extort interest against the will of the rest of the population. Since capital gains approach zero and monopolies can't form, the only way you can keep your wealth is through honest work. Of course I am also assuming a land value tax.
- vkou 4y ago
  > This feels very disingenuous. Nothings stops those countries from adopting a demurrage currency and outcompeting the US-aligned systems. 1. Russia currently can't make its outstanding foreign debt payments, because a large part of it has been cut off from the global financial system. :) 2. There's also the occasional bit of regime change and freedom bombing that comes around when you consider shifting away from, say, the petrodollar. (Maybe? [1]) There is some credit to your point, but it's not at all unassailable, especially from the perspective of the 'other'. [1] I'm not entirely sold on the claims for a strong causal link between the two, but it does seem like a somewhat weird sort of coincidence.

alexashka 4y ago

Yeah, it's the freedom and democracy everyone else dislikes so much. I mean, not Saudi Arabia, they love freedom. I mean, Yemen. Yemen doesn't like freedom.