5 ms·

#whataboutism

by baxtr 4y ago

#whataboutism

pessimizer 4y ago
Whataboutism is when you accuse your neighbor of making too much noise and he counters by accusing you of beating your kids. It's not when you accuse your neighbor of beating his kids, and he points out that you also beat your kids. The US has the highest rate of imprisonment in the world, it's not even close.
- xdennis 4y ago
  The Economist is British. But in any case, it's whataboutism because police brutality has nothing to do with what is happening in Hong Kong, where the central government is removing local autonomy to impose totalitarianism.
- azinman2 4y ago
  It actually is exactly whataboutism in that case. It’s also known as tu quoque.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Russia is pretty close to the US. China is estimated, it’s obviously impossible to get any real numbers. If you included Uyghurs it would prob exceed the US in total imprisonment but the rate would still be Low Because you’re comparing 1.4b to 350m.
  - sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
    > Russia is pretty close to the US It's not pretty close to the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... Rate per 100k 1 - United States - 639 25 - Russia - 325 129 - China - 121
    - xdennis 4y ago
      Did you see the note next to China? It says the figure doesn't include re-education camps and internment camps.
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_popul... So bbc is a bit out of date so double checked the source. So you’re still wrong as “it’s not even close” is wrong. But my point still stands. We have no real valid data of china, and if you included Uyghurs it would most likely exceed the US in total imprisonment.
      - sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
        I notice you're quiet about Russia.
        philliphaydon 4y ago
        I’m from NZ and live in Asia. I don’t talk about Russia because I know very little about it.
        sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
        > Russia is pretty close to the US > I don’t talk about Russia because I know very little about it. Except to tell lies, apparently.
        philliphaydon 4y ago
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2... No. I looked at your claim and your claims were false. Even with updated data it’s still a false claim.
        sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
        On what basis is your source better than mine?
        4y ago
- markdestouches 4y ago
  In my understanding, whataboutism is when instead of addressing valid criticism you start pointing fingers at your neighbor, as if it somehow makes that criticism not apply to you. It's not OK to pee in the street even if everybody else does.
snapcaster 4y ago
I think this is a very low effort dismissal. If you're american, do you feel like your everyday experience is a police state? we imprison FAR more people, so i think the whataboutism criticism has some merit but it has to be acknowledged what the baseline is right? Just talking about a single country and single metric without being allowed to refer to comparisons is just a shallow or useless conversation right? how would you prefer the people you're accusing of whataboutism discuss the issue? do you have a better idea?
- johnisgood 4y ago
  > do you feel like your everyday experience is a police state? As an European, I do feel scared in the US. Sickos carry a gun, and that includes the cops. They perceive you to be doing something bad, you may resist out of reflex because you know you are innocent, and it can end up pretty badly for you. No thanks. I would rather stay here where we had perhaps 40 murders per year, and have not seen a cop use a gun ever, not even on me while I was resisting arrest. I would probably be dead if this were to happen in the US. You know what is sad? When family members call the cops on their family members because they are mentally sick, probably having a psychosis. Cops do not know how to handle it. It usually ends up with the mentally ill person's death. Why is the US so eager to use the gun then ask later? How is it possible that here in Europe cops can handle mentally sick people without killing them? At any rate, I will never set foot in the US. (It is just my own opinion. My own fears, be it rational or irrational.)
  - throw_nbvc1234 4y ago
    Last time i was in Paris there were (what looked like) armed military on patrol through a park with long rifles. There was an major event in the country at the time but nothing going on in park that day. I'm not sure the military would ever fulfill that role in America outside of a federal or state declared emergency (maybe I'm wrong there). But in general, that's a role the police would be required to fulfill. You can setup a different kind of police force if you're willing to call in the military to patrol your own citizens on a regular basis. I've been curious if this is something that's typical in Europe/France? Or maybe they weren't military but national police force. Personally I'd rather have armed police officers that, in theory, live in the area than having national security that could literally be flying in from 1000's of miles away.
sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

#whataboutism

by baxtr 4y ago

#whataboutism

Whataboutism is when you accuse your neighbor of making too much noise and he counters by accusing you of beating your kids. It's not when you accuse your neighbor of beating his kids, and he points out that you also beat your kids. The US has the highest rate of imprisonment in the world, it's not even close.

xdennis 4y ago
The Economist is British. But in any case, it's whataboutism because police brutality has nothing to do with what is happening in Hong Kong, where the central government is removing local autonomy to impose totalitarianism.
azinman2 4y ago
It actually is exactly whataboutism in that case. It’s also known as tu quoque.
philliphaydon 4y ago
Russia is pretty close to the US. China is estimated, it’s obviously impossible to get any real numbers. If you included Uyghurs it would prob exceed the US in total imprisonment but the rate would still be Low Because you’re comparing 1.4b to 350m.
- sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
  > Russia is pretty close to the US It's not pretty close to the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... Rate per 100k 1 - United States - 639 25 - Russia - 325 129 - China - 121
  - xdennis 4y ago
    Did you see the note next to China? It says the figure doesn't include re-education camps and internment camps.
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_popul... So bbc is a bit out of date so double checked the source. So you’re still wrong as “it’s not even close” is wrong. But my point still stands. We have no real valid data of china, and if you included Uyghurs it would most likely exceed the US in total imprisonment.
    - sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
      I notice you're quiet about Russia.
      - philliphaydon 4y ago
        I’m from NZ and live in Asia. I don’t talk about Russia because I know very little about it.
        sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
        > Russia is pretty close to the US > I don’t talk about Russia because I know very little about it. Except to tell lies, apparently.
        philliphaydon 4y ago
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2... No. I looked at your claim and your claims were false. Even with updated data it’s still a false claim.
        sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
        On what basis is your source better than mine?
        4y ago
markdestouches 4y ago
In my understanding, whataboutism is when instead of addressing valid criticism you start pointing fingers at your neighbor, as if it somehow makes that criticism not apply to you. It's not OK to pee in the street even if everybody else does.

snapcaster 4y ago

I think this is a very low effort dismissal. If you're american, do you feel like your everyday experience is a police state? we imprison FAR more people, so i think the whataboutism criticism has some merit but it has to be acknowledged what the baseline is right? Just talking about a single country and single metric without being allowed to refer to comparisons is just a shallow or useless conversation right? how would you prefer the people you're accusing of whataboutism discuss the issue? do you have a better idea?

johnisgood 4y ago
> do you feel like your everyday experience is a police state? As an European, I do feel scared in the US. Sickos carry a gun, and that includes the cops. They perceive you to be doing something bad, you may resist out of reflex because you know you are innocent, and it can end up pretty badly for you. No thanks. I would rather stay here where we had perhaps 40 murders per year, and have not seen a cop use a gun ever, not even on me while I was resisting arrest. I would probably be dead if this were to happen in the US. You know what is sad? When family members call the cops on their family members because they are mentally sick, probably having a psychosis. Cops do not know how to handle it. It usually ends up with the mentally ill person's death. Why is the US so eager to use the gun then ask later? How is it possible that here in Europe cops can handle mentally sick people without killing them? At any rate, I will never set foot in the US. (It is just my own opinion. My own fears, be it rational or irrational.)
- throw_nbvc1234 4y ago
  Last time i was in Paris there were (what looked like) armed military on patrol through a park with long rifles. There was an major event in the country at the time but nothing going on in park that day. I'm not sure the military would ever fulfill that role in America outside of a federal or state declared emergency (maybe I'm wrong there). But in general, that's a role the police would be required to fulfill. You can setup a different kind of police force if you're willing to call in the military to patrol your own citizens on a regular basis. I've been curious if this is something that's typical in Europe/France? Or maybe they weren't military but national police force. Personally I'd rather have armed police officers that, in theory, live in the area than having national security that could literally be flying in from 1000's of miles away.

sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes