9 ms·

The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

80 points by jbegley 4y ago

lizardactivist 4y ago
Sickening.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Its interesting. Some argued that 9/11 and its aftermath ( Patriot Act, Snowden and so on ) took a lot the American innocence with it, because it took the mask off. This would partially explain low recruiting for various US branches and some of the disregard most citizens seem to have for what their government is doing. What is equally interesting is the inevitable comparison to Russia and 'special operation' happening in Ukraine ( because it certainly is not war ). Then again.. these days you do not want to voice unpopular opinions and it makes me sad.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  almost like the war machines within large nations will not stop, despite their people not for them End This War, not Endless War it says here
- amq 4y ago
  Are you seriously doubting that there is a war in Ukraine?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    <<What is equally interesting is the inevitable comparison to Russia and 'special operation' happening in Ukraine ( because it certainly is not war ). I suppose it was awkwardly phrased on my part, which invited that comment. Russia's act of aggression is an act of war against Ukraine, but Russia calls it special operation, while US is engaged in various conflicts, which it deems 'anti-terrorism' activity. This is what intended to mean by that sentence. What is more interesting is that US is now officially in a proxy war with Russia as well.
    - hahaitsfunny 4y ago
      The US has been in a proxy war in Ukraine since the war broke out in 2014 - we've had CIA training programs since at least 2015 to train Ukranians to fight Russians in the Donbas. The West did not like Putin backing Assad in Syria... Ukraine is a proxy war and has been since it broke out in 2014 - plenty of evidence to suggest the US was nation building there too under the Obama admin (Nuland Pyatt tapes). Biden and Kerry were all over Ukraine as senators / VP since shortly after the fall of the USSR, and don't forget Ukraine had an IMF loan up for renewal (which was predatory to say the least) in 2013 right before Euromaidan, and Russia was going to bankroll their loan instead. Wouldn't be the first time a coup follows an IMF loan. Don't take it from me though... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOBntnuYCMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOBntnuYCMA
philips 4y ago
Are there examples of these dark/classified programs, with zero constitutional backing, being reigned in by any branch of government? The DoD scope creep seems without end.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jaywalk 4y ago
  I can imagine that anybody who even thinks about it gets a visit from some anonymous men in suits who set them straight.
hereme888 4y ago
So we have no idea what the reasons behind these operations are, and yet people criticize them? That's foolishness. Well, the replies and downvotes certainly augment the foolishness. Assuming operations in Africa are for keeping countries repressed rather than promoting freedom and justice for those who can't fight for themselves, etc. The US is not innocent, but through their actions and 100 years of selflessly policing the world it has more good to boast about than any of you. At least it doesn't just sit behind a keyboard judging others and pretending self-righteousness and moral superiority; it demonstrates it. I would prefer the US now focuses on homeland issues, but making your assumptions and wrong judgment is not something I will do.
- lizardactivist 4y ago
  Reasons: 1. to keep African countries divided to further American policies and agendas 2. to thwart development, own exploitation of natural resources, and the possible rise of Africa as another super-power
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    If that was the case, then it's been an abject failure. China owns Africa.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Reasons > 1. to keep African countries divided to further American policies and agendas > 2. to thwart development, own exploitation of natural resources, and the possible rise of Africa as another super-power Those aren't so much reasons as conspiratorial speculation. You might as well include: 3. Harvest Adrenochrome from African Children
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - lizardactivist 4y ago
      Please, explain to us then what the U.S is doing in these countries under these circumstances, why it is kept out of the public's view, and why the motives are entirely good and altruistic.
DisjointedHunt 4y ago
If classified programs hide unpopular foreign policy, how can we say that the US public is going to the polls informed enough to make decisions? One might reasonably argue this is interference in US elections. These sly actions may have good intent, but people deserve to know if, for example, a rogue administration has ever used the authority against someone they might have simply disliked.
albertopv 4y ago
Weird Al already knew [0] [0] https://youtu.be/C-CG5w4YwOI?t=131 https://youtu.be/C-CG5w4YwOI?t=131
ahelwer 4y ago
I recently read the book The Jakarta Method and it was extremely eye-opening. I'd previously heard a very abridged account of what happened in Indonesia in the 60s from Chomsky, but this book goes and examines how the same pattern was intentionally repeated by the US in many countries throughout the world. It is scarcely an exaggeration to say the US successfully inflicted a fourth reich on the global south over the course of the 20th century. Any left-wing or labor movements were threatened or actually put down with shocking fascist violence so that the wealth could keep flowing out of the country to the US. Not even necessarily communist movements, just the same social-democratic policies that all the nordic countries were implementing. Things are very comfortable here in the core; all the really sick shit happens abroad and is never reported until decades later in books by academics. We can be certain it still happens to this day: nobody here ever faced any consequences, and the same faces or schools are still in power. And they benefit greatly.
- lp0_on_fire 4y ago
  > It is scarcely an exaggeration to say the US successfully inflicted a fourth reich on the global south over the course of the 20th century. Any left-wing or labor movements were threatened or actually put down with shocking fascist violence so that the wealth could keep flowing out of the country to the US. I don't know if it's the Chomsky talking but this kind of hyperbole taints your argument. While US involvement in Southeast Asia and South America are _far from_ perfect they're even farther from being like a "fourth reich".
  - ahelwer 4y ago
    The US funded, trained, armed, and supported with propaganda fascist elements in many countries that came to political power and committed mass murders, all for our benefit. Call it whatever you want. "Far from perfect", just lol.
    - lp0_on_fire 4y ago
      I didn't deny that. I just said calling it the "fourth reich" is hyperbole. Do you honestly believe, without hyperbole, that these actions are on the same level as those committed by the Nazis while they were in power. You know they were responsible for the genocide of millions at an industrial scale, yes?
pibechorro 4y ago
End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace. ...let the Russian flag fly over the Baltics.
  - elbigbad 4y ago
    I think we forget over time and become complacent to the strong possibility that the US maintaining its economic and defense hegemony has generally resulted in fewer people doing bad things. So you go from a generation who used the military might to stop literal Nazis and effectively save the world, to more of a lull where people forget that and start calling for a removal of all foreign bases and a reduction in might, to being smacked by the reality again that bad people predictably do bad things, such as russias invasion of ukraine, and it’s good overall that we have this military might, even if not everyone appreciates it.
    - formerkrogemp 4y ago
      Let me fix this for you. > I think we forget over time and become complacent to the strong possibility that the US maintaining its economic and defense hegemony has generally resulted in fewer non-American people doing bad things. American hegemony is mostly good for the US. Let's not lie about doing 'good' elsewhere. American actions have destabilized many countries and governments to secure and advance American interests. Have American citizens benefited? Probably. > So you go from a generation who used the military might to stop literal Nazis and effectively save the world. Follow that up with generations of overthrowing democratically elected governments and fostering civil wars globally. > to more of a lull where people forget that and start calling for a removal of all foreign bases and a reduction in might, to being smacked by the reality again that bad people predictably do bad things, such as russias invasion of ukraine. I don't think people want a removal of all naval bases or military presence, just enough to pay for fucking healthcare, teachers, food, bridges, and housing. You know the usual basic necessities for life. I guess killing and maiming people around the world is just easier to do. > it’s good overall that we have this military might, even if not everyone appreciates it. That remains to be seen. Tell me that in a few years when we have more guns than food and water. As always, unless you're colorblind, the world exists in color, not black and white.
throwawaymanbot 4y ago
helios_invictus 4y ago
The 127E program from my reading of it seems to involve small US SOF team operating in foreign countries with the logistical/security support of the local government as directed by DOD mission planning. This doesn't sound like proxy warfare, its clandestine direct action warfare. The Tongo Tongo Ambush, appears to be a 127E program with bad outcomes for the US military. Frankly I'd rather have US service members pulling triggers in pursuit of direct US goals, then another countries government acting on our behalf. That all being said, and as Ahelwer pointed out the policies and missions that this type of tool are used for are often misguided, imperialistic and short sighted. The oversight chain is not clear to me either. Thus far the citizenry of the US is happily ignorant of many aspect of US policy and actions.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  This sounds like it's overwhelmingly anti-ISIL based on the mission distribution and explanation. Special forces are often NOT in direct action - it's risky - and instead are training local forces as force multipliers. There are exceptions but frankly you don't send Spec Ops to mag dump a terrorist in a fish market.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  What would be non-misguided direct action warfare
hunglee2 4y ago
its not even that secret - US control over narrative formation / amplification are sufficient for entirely counterfactual stories to be held to be true and beyond scrutiny. This is the US strongest asset - control the stories that are told - and supremacy will be assured
yieldcrv 4y ago
The congressional authority is for a current conflict, the undefined global war on terror Nobody is lying here, the wrong questions are being asked
hitovst 4y ago
...while at the same time, being used in proxy wars.
de6u99er 4y ago
I am surprised that the article doesn't mention the current war in Ukraine.
- libertine 4y ago
  Well it ain't a secret operation, maybe it's because of that. The support on Ukraine war is very public, and it's part of the war effort.
  - Adraghast 4y ago
    Providing arms, intelligence, and other forms of support is done in the public eye, yes. They’re more likely referring to the possible deployment of SOF personnel to Ukraine.
  - hahaitsfunny 4y ago
    The US was doing their best to cover up their involvement in the region since 2014, with secret CIA training programs for Ukranian paramilitaries etc... It definitely hasn't been "very public" over the past eight years.
    - dogma1138 4y ago
      https://www.7atc.army.mil/JMTGU/ https://www.7atc.army.mil/JMTGU/
- kelsolaar 4y ago
  MATTERS RELATING TO FOREIGN NATIONS ITEMS OF SPECIAL INTEREST Increasing Special Operations Forces Collaboration with Allies and Partners with Irregular Warfare Programs The committee commends the Department of Defense’s use of the authority for the Support of Special Operations for Irregular Warfare (IW) provided in section 1202 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2018 (Public Law 115-91) and recognizes the ability to increase the capabilities of partner countries special operations forces such as Ukraine’s. https://armedservices.house.gov/_cache/files/a/d/adc17850-ffed-4b43-8672-f76a58bf5ca4/1AD086D2D8349AC6635A8C65E870909C.fy23-ndaa-iso-subcommittee-mark.pdf https://armedservices.house.gov/_cache/files/a/d/adc17850-ff...
pimpampum 4y ago
Everybody heard of the "National Endowment for Democracy" right?
car_analogy 4y ago
Submission already pushed half-way down page 2, while a submission twice as old with half the votes is ranked 13th.

80 points by jbegley 4y ago

Sickening.

Its interesting. Some argued that 9/11 and its aftermath ( Patriot Act, Snowden and so on ) took a lot the American innocence with it, because it took the mask off. This would partially explain low recruiting for various US branches and some of the disregard most citizens seem to have for what their government is doing. What is equally interesting is the inevitable comparison to Russia and 'special operation' happening in Ukraine ( because it certainly is not war ). Then again.. these days you do not want to voice unpopular opinions and it makes me sad.

mistrial9 4y ago
almost like the war machines within large nations will not stop, despite their people not for them End This War, not Endless War it says here
amq 4y ago
Are you seriously doubting that there is a war in Ukraine?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  <<What is equally interesting is the inevitable comparison to Russia and 'special operation' happening in Ukraine ( because it certainly is not war ). I suppose it was awkwardly phrased on my part, which invited that comment. Russia's act of aggression is an act of war against Ukraine, but Russia calls it special operation, while US is engaged in various conflicts, which it deems 'anti-terrorism' activity. This is what intended to mean by that sentence. What is more interesting is that US is now officially in a proxy war with Russia as well.
  - hahaitsfunny 4y ago
    The US has been in a proxy war in Ukraine since the war broke out in 2014 - we've had CIA training programs since at least 2015 to train Ukranians to fight Russians in the Donbas. The West did not like Putin backing Assad in Syria... Ukraine is a proxy war and has been since it broke out in 2014 - plenty of evidence to suggest the US was nation building there too under the Obama admin (Nuland Pyatt tapes). Biden and Kerry were all over Ukraine as senators / VP since shortly after the fall of the USSR, and don't forget Ukraine had an IMF loan up for renewal (which was predatory to say the least) in 2013 right before Euromaidan, and Russia was going to bankroll their loan instead. Wouldn't be the first time a coup follows an IMF loan. Don't take it from me though... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOBntnuYCMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOBntnuYCMA

philips 4y ago

Are there examples of these dark/classified programs, with zero constitutional backing, being reigned in by any branch of government? The DoD scope creep seems without end.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jaywalk 4y ago
I can imagine that anybody who even thinks about it gets a visit from some anonymous men in suits who set them straight.

hereme888 4y ago

So we have no idea what the reasons behind these operations are, and yet people criticize them? That's foolishness. Well, the replies and downvotes certainly augment the foolishness. Assuming operations in Africa are for keeping countries repressed rather than promoting freedom and justice for those who can't fight for themselves, etc. The US is not innocent, but through their actions and 100 years of selflessly policing the world it has more good to boast about than any of you. At least it doesn't just sit behind a keyboard judging others and pretending self-righteousness and moral superiority; it demonstrates it. I would prefer the US now focuses on homeland issues, but making your assumptions and wrong judgment is not something I will do.

lizardactivist 4y ago
Reasons: 1. to keep African countries divided to further American policies and agendas 2. to thwart development, own exploitation of natural resources, and the possible rise of Africa as another super-power
- jaywalk 4y ago
  If that was the case, then it's been an abject failure. China owns Africa.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Reasons > 1. to keep African countries divided to further American policies and agendas > 2. to thwart development, own exploitation of natural resources, and the possible rise of Africa as another super-power Those aren't so much reasons as conspiratorial speculation. You might as well include: 3. Harvest Adrenochrome from African Children
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lizardactivist 4y ago
    Please, explain to us then what the U.S is doing in these countries under these circumstances, why it is kept out of the public's view, and why the motives are entirely good and altruistic.

DisjointedHunt 4y ago

If classified programs hide unpopular foreign policy, how can we say that the US public is going to the polls informed enough to make decisions? One might reasonably argue this is interference in US elections. These sly actions may have good intent, but people deserve to know if, for example, a rogue administration has ever used the authority against someone they might have simply disliked.

albertopv 4y ago

Weird Al already knew [0] [0] https://youtu.be/C-CG5w4YwOI?t=131 https://youtu.be/C-CG5w4YwOI?t=131

ahelwer 4y ago

I recently read the book The Jakarta Method and it was extremely eye-opening. I'd previously heard a very abridged account of what happened in Indonesia in the 60s from Chomsky, but this book goes and examines how the same pattern was intentionally repeated by the US in many countries throughout the world. It is scarcely an exaggeration to say the US successfully inflicted a fourth reich on the global south over the course of the 20th century. Any left-wing or labor movements were threatened or actually put down with shocking fascist violence so that the wealth could keep flowing out of the country to the US. Not even necessarily communist movements, just the same social-democratic policies that all the nordic countries were implementing. Things are very comfortable here in the core; all the really sick shit happens abroad and is never reported until decades later in books by academics. We can be certain it still happens to this day: nobody here ever faced any consequences, and the same faces or schools are still in power. And they benefit greatly.

lp0_on_fire 4y ago
> It is scarcely an exaggeration to say the US successfully inflicted a fourth reich on the global south over the course of the 20th century. Any left-wing or labor movements were threatened or actually put down with shocking fascist violence so that the wealth could keep flowing out of the country to the US. I don't know if it's the Chomsky talking but this kind of hyperbole taints your argument. While US involvement in Southeast Asia and South America are _far from_ perfect they're even farther from being like a "fourth reich".
- ahelwer 4y ago
  The US funded, trained, armed, and supported with propaganda fascist elements in many countries that came to political power and committed mass murders, all for our benefit. Call it whatever you want. "Far from perfect", just lol.
  - lp0_on_fire 4y ago
    I didn't deny that. I just said calling it the "fourth reich" is hyperbole. Do you honestly believe, without hyperbole, that these actions are on the same level as those committed by the Nazis while they were in power. You know they were responsible for the genocide of millions at an industrial scale, yes?

pibechorro 4y ago

End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace.

tablespoon 4y ago
> End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace. ...let the Russian flag fly over the Baltics.
- elbigbad 4y ago
  I think we forget over time and become complacent to the strong possibility that the US maintaining its economic and defense hegemony has generally resulted in fewer people doing bad things. So you go from a generation who used the military might to stop literal Nazis and effectively save the world, to more of a lull where people forget that and start calling for a removal of all foreign bases and a reduction in might, to being smacked by the reality again that bad people predictably do bad things, such as russias invasion of ukraine, and it’s good overall that we have this military might, even if not everyone appreciates it.
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    Let me fix this for you. > I think we forget over time and become complacent to the strong possibility that the US maintaining its economic and defense hegemony has generally resulted in fewer non-American people doing bad things. American hegemony is mostly good for the US. Let's not lie about doing 'good' elsewhere. American actions have destabilized many countries and governments to secure and advance American interests. Have American citizens benefited? Probably. > So you go from a generation who used the military might to stop literal Nazis and effectively save the world. Follow that up with generations of overthrowing democratically elected governments and fostering civil wars globally. > to more of a lull where people forget that and start calling for a removal of all foreign bases and a reduction in might, to being smacked by the reality again that bad people predictably do bad things, such as russias invasion of ukraine. I don't think people want a removal of all naval bases or military presence, just enough to pay for fucking healthcare, teachers, food, bridges, and housing. You know the usual basic necessities for life. I guess killing and maiming people around the world is just easier to do. > it’s good overall that we have this military might, even if not everyone appreciates it. That remains to be seen. Tell me that in a few years when we have more guns than food and water. As always, unless you're colorblind, the world exists in color, not black and white.

throwawaymanbot 4y ago

helios_invictus 4y ago

The 127E program from my reading of it seems to involve small US SOF team operating in foreign countries with the logistical/security support of the local government as directed by DOD mission planning. This doesn't sound like proxy warfare, its clandestine direct action warfare. The Tongo Tongo Ambush, appears to be a 127E program with bad outcomes for the US military. Frankly I'd rather have US service members pulling triggers in pursuit of direct US goals, then another countries government acting on our behalf. That all being said, and as Ahelwer pointed out the policies and missions that this type of tool are used for are often misguided, imperialistic and short sighted. The oversight chain is not clear to me either. Thus far the citizenry of the US is happily ignorant of many aspect of US policy and actions.

vorpalhex 4y ago
This sounds like it's overwhelmingly anti-ISIL based on the mission distribution and explanation. Special forces are often NOT in direct action - it's risky - and instead are training local forces as force multipliers. There are exceptions but frankly you don't send Spec Ops to mag dump a terrorist in a fish market.
wahnfrieden 4y ago
What would be non-misguided direct action warfare

hunglee2 4y ago

its not even that secret - US control over narrative formation / amplification are sufficient for entirely counterfactual stories to be held to be true and beyond scrutiny. This is the US strongest asset - control the stories that are told - and supremacy will be assured

yieldcrv 4y ago

The congressional authority is for a current conflict, the undefined global war on terror Nobody is lying here, the wrong questions are being asked

hitovst 4y ago

...while at the same time, being used in proxy wars.

de6u99er 4y ago

I am surprised that the article doesn't mention the current war in Ukraine.

libertine 4y ago
Well it ain't a secret operation, maybe it's because of that. The support on Ukraine war is very public, and it's part of the war effort.
- Adraghast 4y ago
  Providing arms, intelligence, and other forms of support is done in the public eye, yes. They’re more likely referring to the possible deployment of SOF personnel to Ukraine.
- hahaitsfunny 4y ago
  The US was doing their best to cover up their involvement in the region since 2014, with secret CIA training programs for Ukranian paramilitaries etc... It definitely hasn't been "very public" over the past eight years.
  - dogma1138 4y ago
    https://www.7atc.army.mil/JMTGU/ https://www.7atc.army.mil/JMTGU/
kelsolaar 4y ago
MATTERS RELATING TO FOREIGN NATIONS ITEMS OF SPECIAL INTEREST Increasing Special Operations Forces Collaboration with Allies and Partners with Irregular Warfare Programs The committee commends the Department of Defense’s use of the authority for the Support of Special Operations for Irregular Warfare (IW) provided in section 1202 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2018 (Public Law 115-91) and recognizes the ability to increase the capabilities of partner countries special operations forces such as Ukraine’s. https://armedservices.house.gov/_cache/files/a/d/adc17850-ffed-4b43-8672-f76a58bf5ca4/1AD086D2D8349AC6635A8C65E870909C.fy23-ndaa-iso-subcommittee-mark.pdf https://armedservices.house.gov/_cache/files/a/d/adc17850-ff...

pimpampum 4y ago

Everybody heard of the "National Endowment for Democracy" right?

car_analogy 4y ago

Submission already pushed half-way down page 2, while a submission twice as old with half the votes is ranked 13th.