18 ms·

V 0.3

251 points by amedvednikov 4y ago

colejohnson66 4y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930011
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  It's not a dupe. This submission was falsely mass reported and removed from the front page within minutes. After emailing HN mods, the flags were removed 18 hours later, but it was gone of course. I've asked HN mods for a permission to re-submit this.
  - rvz 4y ago
    I find it funny that as soon as you [0] asked someone to list these major bugs in V especially when it turned out that they haven't used the language, they begin to continue their regular deflection and dodging of the question. It is a pattern I keep seeing here on HN, but its great that V hasn't given up and it is still active and maintained. No idea why this post was flagged. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31943383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31943383
    - forgotpwd16 4y ago
      Wanna know something funnier also posted in previous thread? The hello_world.v has potential memory leaks. I tried it myself and got a similar result. Somehow the creator cannot reproduce this. ==57519== LEAK SUMMARY: ==57519== definitely lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==57519== indirectly lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==57519== possibly lost: 816 bytes in 3 blocks ==57519== still reachable: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==57519== suppressed: 0 bytes in 0 blocks [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31931083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31931083 edit: Got something even better. $ valgrind --leak-check=yes v examples/hello_world.v ... ==58037== LEAK SUMMARY: ==58037== definitely lost: 4,463,772 bytes in 106,561 blocks ==58037== indirectly lost: 5,275,772 bytes in 84,005 blocks ==58037== possibly lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==58037== still reachable: 47,149 bytes in 263 blocks ==58037== suppressed: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ...
      - judge2020 4y ago
        Reproduces on GitHub Actions: https://github.com/judge2020/test-v/runs/7150691976?check_suite_focus=true#step:4:11 https://github.com/judge2020/test-v/runs/7150691976?check_su...
        amedvednikov 4y ago
        Like I thought, this is some minor GC overhead. Wouldn't be there with `v -gc none hello_world.v`.
      - amedvednikov 4y ago
        You can stop spamming this nothingburger. 816 bytes is probably due to some GC overhead. It's nothing.
        forgotpwd16 4y ago
        "Probably" doesn't cut it if someone is going to user your language. Let's agree that this isn't a serious matter though. The compiler leaking is nothing as well?
        amedvednikov 4y ago
        It's not probably anymore, you're too late. See the message below. And no, 800 bytes is not a serious matter.
        mihaigalos 4y ago
        I do think V is amazing and has a bright future. Thank you for putting time in it. If I may, I still believe even 1 byte is a serious matter imho.
        amedvednikov 4y ago
        I'd agree if it was happening in a loop somewhere. And a long running web service would leak memory over time. This doesn't happen, we have V web services running for months without leaks. But since there were several responses with this message, I'll make sure valgrind reports 0 :)
    - amedvednikov 4y ago
      Yeah it's a common pattern :)
  - hunterb123 4y ago
    Interesting to note that this thread was also flagged (now restored) within 40 minutes of it being posted.
    - amedvednikov 4y ago
      Yeah it's happened 4 times in total now.
      - bragr 4y ago
        You do not engage with criticism in good faith. This is a reoccurring problem in all your threads. This is why you get down voted and flagged. It's not a conspiracy against V, it is your own behavior.
        hunterb123 4y ago
        You may want to be specific, all criticisms were addressed by the author in this thread. Also, this thread was flagged before any criticism was posted btw. You'd think those people that wanted their criticisms addressed in good faith wouldn't flag a new release that solves their criticisms.
        amedvednikov 4y ago
        Yeah, please be specific. I've received so many vague accusations like this, and never ever were any actual examples given.
        bragr 4y ago
        Unsupported ad hominem against the person and technical assertions without any evidence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946432 Unsupported conspiratorial assertions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946840 You know what the common thread in all the problems and issues you identify in this post? You communicating poorly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946635 This is not a constructive way to engage with someone, even if they are spamming: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31945932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31945932 I'm not even sure what to say about thread, you got all hostile on someone who was basically on your side because the blogs post you hate made him think something that you yourself agree with which that V is not production ready? This person might have come back to check out your 1.0, but I doubt they will now! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930435 And just the level of cognitive dissidence here. Why are you mad about someone calling your 0.3 not production ready software immature? It's interesting how you can call the language immature without even trying it. 0.3 pretty clearly means it's not production ready software. I'm not even that far back in your comment history. That's all the free emotional labor I'm willing to do for you today. Edit: Also I don't want to be the tone police, but I stepped past a lot of comments that seemed to run afoul of the "it's not what you said it's the way you said it" rule. My last piece of advice would be to read through your comments and ask yourself if the tone of them is best for achieving your (I presume) goal of promoting V.
amedvednikov 4y ago
V's creator here. We're really excited about this release. This is a big one. 5769 commits pushed to master, 1697 bugs closed. The highlights of this release are C2V, a fully automatic C => V source code translator, closures, and no more memory leaks by default. There's a really cool C2V demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oXrz3oRoEg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oXrz3oRoEg Translating DOOM from C to V, building it in under a second and running it!
- ducktective 4y ago
  Thanks for posting. > Translating DOOM from C to V Like, you can literally translate a C project to V without any manual intervention?
  - amedvednikov 4y ago
    Exactly.
    - colejohnson66 4y ago
      This isn't a criticism, but what's the purpose of using c2v? As in, anything outside c2v just to compile it. The example of DOOM is taking the C code, converting it to V, then compiling it (which internally converts V to C before passing it off).
      - abc_lisper 4y ago
        If it works, devs can move to a safer language for future development of the project. Anyways, code as a sacred artifact perspective needs to go - by that I mean, having tools to modify/convert and answer questions about code much more easily. May be with AI that would finally be possible.
      - amedvednikov 4y ago
        Generating V wrappers on top of C libraries in order to use them. Otherwise all functions and types would have to be manually converted. Migrating older projects from C to a nicer newer language. By moving from C to V you get rid of complex makefiles, headers (you get nice clean modules instead), you get a modern stdlib with strings etc (although C strings aren't converted to V strings by C2V yet), much easier cross compilation, etc.
Hamuko 4y ago
So, it's V v0.3? What is with programming languages and terrible names?
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  I think it’s a cool name. Or I guess letter. You can nickname it Victor if you want.
  - czx4f4bd 4y ago
    Except that it's incredibly hard to search for if people just call it "V" and not something like "vlang". I was trying to search for a thread I saw about it on Twitter and failed miserably, even with the "posts by people you follow" filter, because all the results were about various "X v. Y" court cases.
    - Joker_vD 4y ago
      Well, how do people google for C, or D, or R? Normally with a query like "d language", right? And indeed, googling for "v language" gives me vlang.io as the first result.
      - czx4f4bd 4y ago
        I intentionally didn't use Google as an example. Major search engines obviously have tricks to index things like this, though I'll note there are still gaps. For example, googling "v language data structures" produces nothing related to V itself. That said, I'm specifically talking about trying to search things that Google doesn't index, like a Discord server, an internal wiki, or a specific non-textual filter on a public site. As mentioned, I tried searching for a specific Twitter thread about V from people I follow and didn't find it because they just called it "V", which on Twitter returns a ton of results for things like court cases. I'm sure if I spent forever massaging my query I could track it down, but if it was called "vlang" or "VL" or something similarly distinct it wouldn't be a problem. For example, PHP, Perl, OCaml, SQL, Prolog, etc. are all quite easy to find regardless of where and how I'm looking.
bodge5000 4y ago
Feels like so many great languages are coming out at the moment, or at least I'm only just learning about them. Though a language that can be learnt in an hour and has the speed of C might just bump this one up to the top of my todo list
mwexler 4y ago
Requisite: what is this and why should I care? From the Github page: Simple, fast, safe, compiled language for developing maintainable software. Compiles itself in <1s with zero library dependencies. https://vlang.io https://vlang.io I first learned about it from https://simonknott.de/articles/vlang https://simonknott.de/articles/vlang (2019), which was an interesting introduction, if a touch dated now
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  It can be thought of as Go but with faster and easier C interop, and better optimization brought by Clang/GCC's -O2. But also with nice additions like sum types, enums, string interpolation, if expressions etc. Full comparison here: https://vlang.io/compare#go https://vlang.io/compare#go
  - kgeist 4y ago
    >It can be thought of as Go <..> also with nice additions like sum types, enums, string interpolation, if expressions etc. I've noticed the language design itself is rarely criticized, it's mostly about the implementation. So I think you're on the right path here.
christophilus 4y ago
I'm still excited about V and impressed by the progress they've made. It's been a fun language to tinker with.
sjustinas 4y ago
Are there plans for docs to be updated? The 0.3 release notes claim: > Option and Result are now separate types: ?Foo and !Foo respectively. Old code will continue working for 1 year and will result in a warning/hint. Yet, doc/docs.md still states: > V combines Option and Result into one type, so you don't need to decide which one to use. Is there an up-to-date doc, or how does one find out more about these types? I found parts of the RFC overhauling the error handling [0] pretty bizarre, so I'm interested to see how the implementation turned out. [0]: https://github.com/vlang/rfcs/pull/7 https://github.com/vlang/rfcs/pull/7 edit: linked to the wrong RFC initially.
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Good catch, these are supposed to be up-to-date. Will update asap.
- wwalexander 4y ago
  Combining them in general makes sense to me, at least to the extent of having an Optional<T> be an alias of Result<T, ()>. There are some obvious cases where a none optional is separate from failure, like a hash map lookup or an element from an iterator. But I often also see optionals used to signal e.g. an unparseable string, where it would seem equally reasonable to return a Result or throw an error. I’ve been writing a lot of Swift lately, and because it uses `throws` rather than a Result type, it’s made the often arbitrary choice of returning an optional value or raising an error more noticeable to me. Especially when using `async`, as pretty much everything declared `async` also throws, so if an Optional is actually what you want to return, you get some fairly gross boilerplate at the site of use: guard let value = try await getValue() else { … } This has turned into a bit of a ramble but my main point is that implementing Optional as a Result with void error type makes a lot of sense in my head.
  - amedvednikov 4y ago
    Yeah that was my idea initially when I designed the language. I don't think any other language has them merged. There were issues later with the 3 states (Ok, Error, none) instead of a simple binary state. Since the `or {}` block handles the "not Ok", developers had to check whether it was an Error or a `none`, it's not pretty.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Shadonototra 4y ago
What a great surprise this language is Zig looks bloated compared to this one
revskill 4y ago
VLang is genius language. It's less boilerplate than Go, safer than C, simpler than Rust, and it's fun to use. Waiting for a Monad tutorial in V, ahh no, it's built-in. VLang is the best language to me now to develop server-side application.
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Thanks! Glad you like it :)
corford 4y ago
With 30K stars on GH, I feel late to the party but Vlang looks amazing. Given this is the 0.3 release, it's almost shocking how much has already been achieved. The comparison page was very useful to quickly get a feel for V's "aesthetic" and design goals: https://vlang.io/compare https://vlang.io/compare
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Thanks! Indeed, a lot has been done. Almost 14k commits with a clean linear history (no merge commits), 7200 PRs merged, 500+ contributors. We have an amazing team :)
colesantiago 4y ago
It's interesting how the language author of V was bullied and harrassed for his early language [0] and with time V has made very substantial progress with C2V [1], and an OS written in V [2] and various language improvements. This (and many future updates of V) has now rendered pretty much most criticisms in this attack post irrelevant, after all of this V is gaining traction, a community forming around the language and with great backing, It goes to show that programmers are far too quick to jump the gun on languages. I congratulate Alex for persisting on V. [0] https://xeiaso.net/blog/series/v https://xeiaso.net/blog/series/v [1] https://github.com/vlang/c2v https://github.com/vlang/c2v [2] https://github.com/vlang/vinix https://github.com/vlang/vinix
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Thank you! There's also Gitly, which we're launching next week. https://github.com/vlang/gitly https://github.com/vlang/gitly
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  Publishing a few critical articles is not bullying and harassment.
  - colesantiago 4y ago
    Yet we see this harassment continuing on this thread. The article I linked is just a drop in the ocean. Nitpicking over leaking bytes and language features every release is exhausting for the language author when we both know these will be fixed in another release. The fact I see activity in language and that the author is active gives me confidence in V.
    - pseudalopex 4y ago
      > Yet we see this harassment continuing on this thread. The article I linked is just a drop in the ocean. Which comments on this thread were Xe Iaso's? > Nitpicking over leaking bytes and language features every release is exhausting for the language author when we both know these will be fixed in another release. I don't know what will be fixed in another release. Nitpicking to you was useful to decide if V was worth my time now.
jmconfuzeus 4y ago
> performance of C on the web > Simplicity: the language can be learned in less than an hour This sounds like a killer language. Gonna try it out on a small project. Hopefully it lives up to it's promises. Anyway, congrats on 0.3.
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Thanks! To be fair, "in one hour" was updated to "over a weekend" on the home page. I just did the same in README.md. The language has definitely grown as you can see by the size of the docs. But it's definitely not bigger than Go, and that one has always been famous in the industry for being simple. The best thing is that V is always going to stay small. No constant changes and new complexity (looking at you, C#).
ketzu 4y ago
How up-to-date is this [1] review from earlier this year for 0.3? Honestly, the review read nicely but left quite a questionable impression of V. [1] https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  All of the issues there were fixed several days ago, so it's no longer relevant. Since it was another anonymous attack, it's not going to be updated and will stay like this for years. And the issues discussed are questionable at best. Half the article is about a type checker bug, which was a 3 line fix. Then false claims like being able to modify array.len.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    Slightly off-topic but this whole thing made me curious. I keep seeing V being "attacked" by various people with these kind of blogposts (or even HN accounts dedicated to criticizing V), with broad range of claims or counter-claims to what V wants to achieve. While this is maybe not completely absent when other new languages comes up (like Golang or Rust), it feels like V really brings out the people to come up with ways of criticizing it. Do you have any ideas about why or how come? Have you noticed anything in particular that makes people want to (almost) aggressively "prove" V to be wrong? Basically, do you have any guesses to why V seems to have more "enemies" out there, compared to lets say Rust or Go?
    - colejohnson66 4y ago
      IMO, it's pretty simple. At the beginning, V was making huge claims that turned out to be false or misleading. The developer clarified that many of those features were actually goals. Fair enough. There's also the whole issue with blocking people who criticized the language (eg. Xe) because V was being "attacked" as if there's some conspiracy to destroy V. The claims may be outdated, but the response by the developers put many people off. V has made huge strides since then, but people are very resentful.
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
V is slowly becoming a realistic threat to Rust.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Or, if you like to see the world as a playground for collaboration rather than arena for competition: V is slowly becoming yet another language to play with, together with Rust and all the other fun languages that are coming alive
timmy2ply 4y ago
Just found my new hobby, learning V! Love the batteries included approach here. Kuddos :)
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Enjoy! The documentation also works as a tutorial, pretty much.
goingtosleep 4y ago
I'm curious about the status and/or roadmap of REPL for vlang? Do you plan for an expressive experience with the REPL, like in interpreted languages (python, ruby...), or it just compiles each line?
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  REPL compiles each time, but we also have a WIP interpreter. That one is the real thing :) Not finished yet. https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/vlib/v/eval https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/vlib/v/eval
pawelduda 4y ago
Googling anything related to this language must be fun
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  "vlang" works fine :)
  - pawelduda 4y ago
    But probably ommits potentially useful matches where the language is referred to as "v"
    - amedvednikov 4y ago
      Yeah that's true. And searching for it in chats is a pain. Lots of youtube.com?v= links instead...
dimgl 4y ago
Wow. Despite a lot of the negativity here, V looks great. I might take a stab at writing something over the weekend with it. Congratulations on the release.
alephnan 4y ago
The v2048 webassembly game demo crashed not just Chrome browser but my entire IPHone SE causing it to reboot. I reproduced this twice now.
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Thanks, will have a look. wasm is not tested by CI unfortunately (yet).
nurettin 4y ago
Previously on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Ah yes the famous glfw dependency of the V compiler. Complete scam.
  - nurettin 4y ago
    How dare you earn more than zig!?
    - Tozen 4y ago
      The audacity!
u1tron 4y ago
Golang + Rust = Vlang
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  You could say that. A very simplistic way to sum it up. There's no ownership in V and it's not planned. But it does borrow immutability, sum types, some elements of memory handling. V is much closer to Go, about 80% close I'd say: https://vlang.io/compare#go https://vlang.io/compare#go
Linda703 4y ago
[dead]
emblaegh 4y ago
The comments on this thread are suspiciously hyperbolic.
- christophilus 4y ago
  Which ones? The positive ones or the negative ones? I posted one of the positive ones. I've been following V with interest for a while (a few years, maybe?). It got a lot of shade early on, somewhat justifiably-- the initial claims were highly suspect. Past V comment threads on HN leaned very negative. That said, I like V. I'm glad to see the maintainers are still chugging along despite the criticisms. It gets better with each release. I'm still not doing anything in production with it, as it's pre 1.0, and the Postgres performance issues are still a blocker for my production use-cases. But, I really hope to someday have V in my toolbelt for the places where I currently reach for Go.
  - christophilus 4y ago
    Follow up for any future readers. The Postgres perf now seems acceptable. Slower than Go’s pgx library, but within the same ballpark.
frenchie4111 4y ago
Can I suggest: On your github homepage (https://github.com/vlang/v https://github.com/vlang/v) you should put some sample code, I scrolled all the way through it and did see anything.
- trenchgun 4y ago
  There are tons of examples in the examples folder
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  There are indeed lots of examples in the top directory `examples/`. Also there's a big link on vlang.io, top menu.
- gompertz 4y ago
  Also view the Docs link just below the V logo, on the link you provided. It's true quite a bit of projects these days put sample code in the readme... But it probably isn't where code examples belong. Certainly wasn't the trend in 90s or early 00s.
mllllv 4y ago
Great job with the language. I’ve always found the controversy quite interesting. You know you’re doing something right when everyone attacks you. How did you get GitHub to support V just one month after release?
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Thanks! This is how GitHub started to support V: https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/4564 https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/4564
minraws 4y ago
TBH, I have criticized V before, because when it launched things and claims were weird and maybe inflated, honestly don't quite remember looking at V in a good light is still hard for me. But I am willing to give it a try, so here's a shot. Can you pls, explain a few things in short really don't want to read all of the docs to figure out the basics. 1. What platforms are well supported by V and how does it work non traditional or extension based C code? 2. What happens for edge cases where the C compiler quirks are being used for code when you transpile C to V? 3. How safe is V really? Like is it memory safe, if so maybe a quick description as to how, does it provide a memory model? What about an ABI? does it match the platform C ABI or something? 4. What happens to linking to C code, is it as easy as Zig? maybe something like zig cc? 5. How is the multithreading in V? Does it have something like openmp atleast something like rayon or do we use platform threads? 6. What about the C++ interop? anything interesting more than what other languages can do? 7. What's the current state of the compiler in terms of stability? And especially the std lib? 8. Lastly anything you want to point out as a very interesting feature in V that is not hype but so comfy that I would like to atleast use V somewhere in my stack? Maybe something like Zig's cc or Nim's metaprogramming or Haskell's mind bending type system, Idris's dependent types, etc.? Preferrably not like Rust's safety thing, I love Rust but just saying things like it's safer is very weird claim without any context. Just some details are fine no need to waste your time on making a hater change their mind. Personally I am trying to keep open mind to things, I might be harsh because of ignorance or preference or just because of being a young douchey programmer but being mean to something that has stuck around, and where a bunch of people seem to be putting in effort somehow seems worse than just shitty on it, even if it's a scam.
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  Do you actually expect a response to that wall of questions? If you're that interested please read the docs, it's not that hard.
  - minraws 4y ago
    Fixed the formatting, reading the docs takes time and in case of languages they don't give a lot of critical information about it's state in the docs, I have worked from Haskell to Rust to C++ professionally never has the language docs told me all the key details about the language to make a selection I was only able to get into them after months if not years of trial and error. I am not gonna pretend I have any love for V, but I will say I might look into it but spending several months or years with the language when I have such limited free time is not an option for me and many others. I fixed the formatting so it should be more clear as well. If no one wants to answer then fine I didn't ask the questions to get a definite answer as I said I am not entitled to an answer I just would like to know those things. I can wait for V to one day take over the world, die off, or someone to just make more fun memes. I don't really have a dog in this fight.
Xevi 4y ago
V looks interesting, and I wish it the very best. However the attitude of the lead developers toward criticism or negative feedback (even if it's not valid) is highly off-putting imo. Everything negative that people say appear to be taken as an "attack", and as far as I've seen they are quick on the trigger in regards to banning or blocking people that they disagree with. And at the very least they just completely disregard all negative feedback as lies, scams, conspiracies, etc. The responses I've read by the devs are in stark contrast to what I've seen in other languages I use, such as Rust. I hope that as the language evolves, the developers will start reflecting on the way that they interact with others and how it impacts people's view of V. I could never justify using a language like V in production if I couldn't even trust the lead developers to be level-headed during criticism. I'm sorry for ranting, I really wish the best for V and its maintainers.
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Only I can ban, and I haven't banned anyone in 2 years. You can read my comments here about the attacks. There's actual valid criticism and feedback like in https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 But there's also trolling, harassment, and completely baseless attacks.
  - mst 4y ago
    The way Cadey was treated by your community entirely ended my interest in your language.
    - amedvednikov 4y ago
      Who's Cadey? Do you have a link?
      - neven 4y ago
        mst probably meant this: https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17 https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17
kgeist 4y ago
I've been following vlang's GitHub issues lately and it feels like every second issue is about broken codegen in areas which seem so basic you wonder why it was even merged in that state. So I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the list of features/fixes is impressive and there's a growing community, and even a book, on the other hand there are endless edge cases which weren't properly thought out/tested and which break the compiler. Maybe vlang needs some sort of fuzzing?
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Interesting. I have always felt the opposite. It's always been stable for me, that's why I rewrote V in V so early. We also have thousands of tests. Do you have any examples?
  - kgeist 4y ago
    Right now on the very first issues page 5 issues out of 21 (if we skip feature requests) are about broken codegen (i.e. C errors). I'd expect a stable implementation to have very few codegen problems, not like this; I'd expect something like subtle correctness issues or various bugs in the standard library to be much more common (larger surface area). Another interesting example is this: https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/14804 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/14804 Passing a variable to a function works, but passing a string literal doesn't. I wonder why stuff like that even happens, it leaves an impression that the compiler has hardcoded special cases internally and breaks on input which wasn't foreseen by the implementation authors. Your solution is to get rid of the method entirely instead of fixing it, which is also somewhat strange to me. Can you explain? >Interesting. I have always felt the opposite. It's always been stable for me It could be that the patterns you use when writing V code are well-tested but when someone strays from the path and does something you wouldn't do when writing V code it easily breaks the compiler.
    - amedvednikov 4y ago
      strconv.v_sprintf is an internal function only used by the compiler in string interpolation. It should simply be made private.
MildlySerious 4y ago
This looks pretty interesting and I have a few immediate ideas for use cases. I'm getting a 504 from CF when trying to look at the vpm site currently, so I can't look around what the situation with packages is like. I will for sure check back later and play around with it over the weekend, maybe.
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  vpm has been restarted, I'll move it to another server soon, this one is too busy
kennywinker 4y ago
Why is assigning a constant unsafe? struct App { mut: gg &gg.Context = unsafe { 0 } } https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/f0cee25213e25289ae4c60ba9a6a12e4aadf5e9d/examples/2048/2048.v#L10 https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/f0cee25213e25289ae4c60ba9a6a...
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Because it's null (unsafe{0} will be replaced with unsafe {nil}) It needs to be inited recursively with app := App { gg: &gg.Context { ... app } } And that doesn't work yet. It used to work in the initial V, but not right now. It'll be fixed in 0.4.
tayistay 4y ago
I just downloaded V. The following V code segfaults, much like C would: struct Node { val int left &Node right &Node } fn main() { n := Node { 123, 0, 0 } m := *n.left println(m) }
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  That's a bug, the compiler should require `unsafe { n := Node { 123,nil,nil } }`.
danielEM 4y ago
I don't care about all that fuzz-buzz, no nitpicks here as well, all I care about is here: https://github.com/vlang/v/issues https://github.com/vlang/v/issues Lovely language, but above scares me off for now. Respect to all involved and hope one day will be a day where there will be only a super sophisticated bugs left that affects 0.01% of users.
- gompertz 4y ago
  Before using V I had a similar concern. However I then looked at Go and see it has 7.5k issues on GitHub. Granted much bigger user base = more stuff uncovered.... So for right or wrong, 7.5k issues in 100K stars versus 750 issues on 30k stars... It doesn't look so crazy suddenly. Personally I like to see issues as it means people are actually using the language, finding bugs, and driving incremental improvement. A project with 0 issues barely indicates flawless implementation no more than the possibility it simply has 0 users.
  - danielEM 4y ago
    May I ask what for you're using V? And what are your biggest concerns about V at this stage?
    - gompertz 4y ago
      I'm using V mostly for data science related applications (in production). Honestly my biggest fear is that this constant V backlash is going to do serious harm to the community and seriously impede development/adoption... I have no concerns with the language itself or the development thereof - only the consequences of threads such as these, which surface every other week. I entered in with realistic expectations from something that is version 0.3; unlike others who seem to think version 0.3 means "Mars lander ready".
      - Tozen 4y ago
        I think V will persevere, because the community has enough support and momentum to continue, and because the direction and syntax of the language will continually attract as well. Even the outrageous trolling and harsh criticisms also brings attention and curiosity about the language, that other developing languages can't and don't get. V will stay in people's minds and on their lips, keeping it popular. Many critics will say one thing, but will also be trying and using V, and it has been the case they become contributors to the language or are eager to see its next release. As the language makes corrections and continually improves, it's "baptism by fire", will make it even more viable and useful upon each release and in the long run.
Cyberdog 4y ago
I've had my eye on this language for a couple months; in particular, V UI subproject, a SwiftUI-like code-first framework for doing GUIs, caught my eye, since I rather like SwiftUI and I still need to make a human-friendly KyuWeb client for the server to be of any use. Unfortunately V UI doesn't seem to have progressed much since I last had a look on it. Here's hoping it gets the attention it deserves, because from what I've researched of GTK, it looks about as fun as a kidney stone to use, and having a modern low-level language with a closely-integrated, cross-platform modern GUI framework could really put V above the rest (SwiftUI does not have first-class support outside of Apple platforms currently). https://github.com/vlang/ui https://github.com/vlang/ui (I'd also like to see first-class support for the BSDs, but I know better than to hold my breath on that one.)

V 0.3

251 points by amedvednikov 4y ago

colejohnson66 4y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930011

amedvednikov 4y ago
It's not a dupe. This submission was falsely mass reported and removed from the front page within minutes. After emailing HN mods, the flags were removed 18 hours later, but it was gone of course. I've asked HN mods for a permission to re-submit this.
- rvz 4y ago
  I find it funny that as soon as you [0] asked someone to list these major bugs in V especially when it turned out that they haven't used the language, they begin to continue their regular deflection and dodging of the question. It is a pattern I keep seeing here on HN, but its great that V hasn't given up and it is still active and maintained. No idea why this post was flagged. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31943383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31943383
  - forgotpwd16 4y ago
    Wanna know something funnier also posted in previous thread? The hello_world.v has potential memory leaks. I tried it myself and got a similar result. Somehow the creator cannot reproduce this. ==57519== LEAK SUMMARY: ==57519== definitely lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==57519== indirectly lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==57519== possibly lost: 816 bytes in 3 blocks ==57519== still reachable: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==57519== suppressed: 0 bytes in 0 blocks [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31931083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31931083 edit: Got something even better. $ valgrind --leak-check=yes v examples/hello_world.v ... ==58037== LEAK SUMMARY: ==58037== definitely lost: 4,463,772 bytes in 106,561 blocks ==58037== indirectly lost: 5,275,772 bytes in 84,005 blocks ==58037== possibly lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ==58037== still reachable: 47,149 bytes in 263 blocks ==58037== suppressed: 0 bytes in 0 blocks ...
    - judge2020 4y ago
      Reproduces on GitHub Actions: https://github.com/judge2020/test-v/runs/7150691976?check_suite_focus=true#step:4:11 https://github.com/judge2020/test-v/runs/7150691976?check_su...
      - amedvednikov 4y ago
        Like I thought, this is some minor GC overhead. Wouldn't be there with `v -gc none hello_world.v`.
    - amedvednikov 4y ago
      You can stop spamming this nothingburger. 816 bytes is probably due to some GC overhead. It's nothing.
      - forgotpwd16 4y ago
        "Probably" doesn't cut it if someone is going to user your language. Let's agree that this isn't a serious matter though. The compiler leaking is nothing as well?
        amedvednikov 4y ago
        It's not probably anymore, you're too late. See the message below. And no, 800 bytes is not a serious matter.
        mihaigalos 4y ago
        I do think V is amazing and has a bright future. Thank you for putting time in it. If I may, I still believe even 1 byte is a serious matter imho.
        amedvednikov 4y ago
        I'd agree if it was happening in a loop somewhere. And a long running web service would leak memory over time. This doesn't happen, we have V web services running for months without leaks. But since there were several responses with this message, I'll make sure valgrind reports 0 :)
  - amedvednikov 4y ago
    Yeah it's a common pattern :)
- hunterb123 4y ago
  Interesting to note that this thread was also flagged (now restored) within 40 minutes of it being posted.
  - amedvednikov 4y ago
    Yeah it's happened 4 times in total now.
    - bragr 4y ago
      You do not engage with criticism in good faith. This is a reoccurring problem in all your threads. This is why you get down voted and flagged. It's not a conspiracy against V, it is your own behavior.
      - hunterb123 4y ago
        You may want to be specific, all criticisms were addressed by the author in this thread. Also, this thread was flagged before any criticism was posted btw. You'd think those people that wanted their criticisms addressed in good faith wouldn't flag a new release that solves their criticisms.
      - amedvednikov 4y ago
        Yeah, please be specific. I've received so many vague accusations like this, and never ever were any actual examples given.
        bragr 4y ago
        Unsupported ad hominem against the person and technical assertions without any evidence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946432 Unsupported conspiratorial assertions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946840 You know what the common thread in all the problems and issues you identify in this post? You communicating poorly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31946635 This is not a constructive way to engage with someone, even if they are spamming: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31945932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31945932 I'm not even sure what to say about thread, you got all hostile on someone who was basically on your side because the blogs post you hate made him think something that you yourself agree with which that V is not production ready? This person might have come back to check out your 1.0, but I doubt they will now! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31930435 And just the level of cognitive dissidence here. Why are you mad about someone calling your 0.3 not production ready software immature? It's interesting how you can call the language immature without even trying it. 0.3 pretty clearly means it's not production ready software. I'm not even that far back in your comment history. That's all the free emotional labor I'm willing to do for you today. Edit: Also I don't want to be the tone police, but I stepped past a lot of comments that seemed to run afoul of the "it's not what you said it's the way you said it" rule. My last piece of advice would be to read through your comments and ask yourself if the tone of them is best for achieving your (I presume) goal of promoting V.

amedvednikov 4y ago

V's creator here. We're really excited about this release. This is a big one. 5769 commits pushed to master, 1697 bugs closed. The highlights of this release are C2V, a fully automatic C => V source code translator, closures, and no more memory leaks by default. There's a really cool C2V demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oXrz3oRoEg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oXrz3oRoEg Translating DOOM from C to V, building it in under a second and running it!

ducktective 4y ago
Thanks for posting. > Translating DOOM from C to V Like, you can literally translate a C project to V without any manual intervention?
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Exactly.
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    This isn't a criticism, but what's the purpose of using c2v? As in, anything outside c2v just to compile it. The example of DOOM is taking the C code, converting it to V, then compiling it (which internally converts V to C before passing it off).
    - abc_lisper 4y ago
      If it works, devs can move to a safer language for future development of the project. Anyways, code as a sacred artifact perspective needs to go - by that I mean, having tools to modify/convert and answer questions about code much more easily. May be with AI that would finally be possible.
    - amedvednikov 4y ago
      Generating V wrappers on top of C libraries in order to use them. Otherwise all functions and types would have to be manually converted. Migrating older projects from C to a nicer newer language. By moving from C to V you get rid of complex makefiles, headers (you get nice clean modules instead), you get a modern stdlib with strings etc (although C strings aren't converted to V strings by C2V yet), much easier cross compilation, etc.

Hamuko 4y ago

So, it's V v0.3? What is with programming languages and terrible names?

avgcorrection 4y ago
I think it’s a cool name. Or I guess letter. You can nickname it Victor if you want.
- czx4f4bd 4y ago
  Except that it's incredibly hard to search for if people just call it "V" and not something like "vlang". I was trying to search for a thread I saw about it on Twitter and failed miserably, even with the "posts by people you follow" filter, because all the results were about various "X v. Y" court cases.
  - Joker_vD 4y ago
    Well, how do people google for C, or D, or R? Normally with a query like "d language", right? And indeed, googling for "v language" gives me vlang.io as the first result.
    - czx4f4bd 4y ago
      I intentionally didn't use Google as an example. Major search engines obviously have tricks to index things like this, though I'll note there are still gaps. For example, googling "v language data structures" produces nothing related to V itself. That said, I'm specifically talking about trying to search things that Google doesn't index, like a Discord server, an internal wiki, or a specific non-textual filter on a public site. As mentioned, I tried searching for a specific Twitter thread about V from people I follow and didn't find it because they just called it "V", which on Twitter returns a ton of results for things like court cases. I'm sure if I spent forever massaging my query I could track it down, but if it was called "vlang" or "VL" or something similarly distinct it wouldn't be a problem. For example, PHP, Perl, OCaml, SQL, Prolog, etc. are all quite easy to find regardless of where and how I'm looking.

bodge5000 4y ago

Feels like so many great languages are coming out at the moment, or at least I'm only just learning about them. Though a language that can be learnt in an hour and has the speed of C might just bump this one up to the top of my todo list

mwexler 4y ago

Requisite: what is this and why should I care? From the Github page: Simple, fast, safe, compiled language for developing maintainable software. Compiles itself in <1s with zero library dependencies. https://vlang.io https://vlang.io I first learned about it from https://simonknott.de/articles/vlang https://simonknott.de/articles/vlang (2019), which was an interesting introduction, if a touch dated now

amedvednikov 4y ago
It can be thought of as Go but with faster and easier C interop, and better optimization brought by Clang/GCC's -O2. But also with nice additions like sum types, enums, string interpolation, if expressions etc. Full comparison here: https://vlang.io/compare#go https://vlang.io/compare#go
- kgeist 4y ago
  >It can be thought of as Go <..> also with nice additions like sum types, enums, string interpolation, if expressions etc. I've noticed the language design itself is rarely criticized, it's mostly about the implementation. So I think you're on the right path here.

christophilus 4y ago

I'm still excited about V and impressed by the progress they've made. It's been a fun language to tinker with.

sjustinas 4y ago

Are there plans for docs to be updated? The 0.3 release notes claim: > Option and Result are now separate types: ?Foo and !Foo respectively. Old code will continue working for 1 year and will result in a warning/hint. Yet, doc/docs.md still states: > V combines Option and Result into one type, so you don't need to decide which one to use. Is there an up-to-date doc, or how does one find out more about these types? I found parts of the RFC overhauling the error handling [0] pretty bizarre, so I'm interested to see how the implementation turned out. [0]: https://github.com/vlang/rfcs/pull/7 https://github.com/vlang/rfcs/pull/7 edit: linked to the wrong RFC initially.

amedvednikov 4y ago
Good catch, these are supposed to be up-to-date. Will update asap.
wwalexander 4y ago
Combining them in general makes sense to me, at least to the extent of having an Optional<T> be an alias of Result<T, ()>. There are some obvious cases where a none optional is separate from failure, like a hash map lookup or an element from an iterator. But I often also see optionals used to signal e.g. an unparseable string, where it would seem equally reasonable to return a Result or throw an error. I’ve been writing a lot of Swift lately, and because it uses `throws` rather than a Result type, it’s made the often arbitrary choice of returning an optional value or raising an error more noticeable to me. Especially when using `async`, as pretty much everything declared `async` also throws, so if an Optional is actually what you want to return, you get some fairly gross boilerplate at the site of use: guard let value = try await getValue() else { … } This has turned into a bit of a ramble but my main point is that implementing Optional as a Result with void error type makes a lot of sense in my head.
- amedvednikov 4y ago
  Yeah that was my idea initially when I designed the language. I don't think any other language has them merged. There were issues later with the 3 states (Ok, Error, none) instead of a simple binary state. Since the `or {}` block handles the "not Ok", developers had to check whether it was an Error or a `none`, it's not pretty.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Shadonototra 4y ago

What a great surprise this language is Zig looks bloated compared to this one

revskill 4y ago

VLang is genius language. It's less boilerplate than Go, safer than C, simpler than Rust, and it's fun to use. Waiting for a Monad tutorial in V, ahh no, it's built-in. VLang is the best language to me now to develop server-side application.

amedvednikov 4y ago
Thanks! Glad you like it :)

corford 4y ago

With 30K stars on GH, I feel late to the party but Vlang looks amazing. Given this is the 0.3 release, it's almost shocking how much has already been achieved. The comparison page was very useful to quickly get a feel for V's "aesthetic" and design goals: https://vlang.io/compare https://vlang.io/compare

amedvednikov 4y ago
Thanks! Indeed, a lot has been done. Almost 14k commits with a clean linear history (no merge commits), 7200 PRs merged, 500+ contributors. We have an amazing team :)

colesantiago 4y ago

It's interesting how the language author of V was bullied and harrassed for his early language [0] and with time V has made very substantial progress with C2V [1], and an OS written in V [2] and various language improvements. This (and many future updates of V) has now rendered pretty much most criticisms in this attack post irrelevant, after all of this V is gaining traction, a community forming around the language and with great backing, It goes to show that programmers are far too quick to jump the gun on languages. I congratulate Alex for persisting on V. [0] https://xeiaso.net/blog/series/v https://xeiaso.net/blog/series/v [1] https://github.com/vlang/c2v https://github.com/vlang/c2v [2] https://github.com/vlang/vinix https://github.com/vlang/vinix

amedvednikov 4y ago
Thank you! There's also Gitly, which we're launching next week. https://github.com/vlang/gitly https://github.com/vlang/gitly
pseudalopex 4y ago
Publishing a few critical articles is not bullying and harassment.
- colesantiago 4y ago
  Yet we see this harassment continuing on this thread. The article I linked is just a drop in the ocean. Nitpicking over leaking bytes and language features every release is exhausting for the language author when we both know these will be fixed in another release. The fact I see activity in language and that the author is active gives me confidence in V.
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    > Yet we see this harassment continuing on this thread. The article I linked is just a drop in the ocean. Which comments on this thread were Xe Iaso's? > Nitpicking over leaking bytes and language features every release is exhausting for the language author when we both know these will be fixed in another release. I don't know what will be fixed in another release. Nitpicking to you was useful to decide if V was worth my time now.

jmconfuzeus 4y ago

> performance of C on the web > Simplicity: the language can be learned in less than an hour This sounds like a killer language. Gonna try it out on a small project. Hopefully it lives up to it's promises. Anyway, congrats on 0.3.

amedvednikov 4y ago
Thanks! To be fair, "in one hour" was updated to "over a weekend" on the home page. I just did the same in README.md. The language has definitely grown as you can see by the size of the docs. But it's definitely not bigger than Go, and that one has always been famous in the industry for being simple. The best thing is that V is always going to stay small. No constant changes and new complexity (looking at you, C#).

ketzu 4y ago

How up-to-date is this [1] review from earlier this year for 0.3? Honestly, the review read nicely but left quite a questionable impression of V. [1] https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html

amedvednikov 4y ago
All of the issues there were fixed several days ago, so it's no longer relevant. Since it was another anonymous attack, it's not going to be updated and will stay like this for years. And the issues discussed are questionable at best. Half the article is about a type checker bug, which was a 3 line fix. Then false claims like being able to modify array.len.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Slightly off-topic but this whole thing made me curious. I keep seeing V being "attacked" by various people with these kind of blogposts (or even HN accounts dedicated to criticizing V), with broad range of claims or counter-claims to what V wants to achieve. While this is maybe not completely absent when other new languages comes up (like Golang or Rust), it feels like V really brings out the people to come up with ways of criticizing it. Do you have any ideas about why or how come? Have you noticed anything in particular that makes people want to (almost) aggressively "prove" V to be wrong? Basically, do you have any guesses to why V seems to have more "enemies" out there, compared to lets say Rust or Go?
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    IMO, it's pretty simple. At the beginning, V was making huge claims that turned out to be false or misleading. The developer clarified that many of those features were actually goals. Fair enough. There's also the whole issue with blocking people who criticized the language (eg. Xe) because V was being "attacked" as if there's some conspiracy to destroy V. The claims may be outdated, but the response by the developers put many people off. V has made huge strides since then, but people are very resentful.

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

V is slowly becoming a realistic threat to Rust.

capableweb 4y ago
Or, if you like to see the world as a playground for collaboration rather than arena for competition: V is slowly becoming yet another language to play with, together with Rust and all the other fun languages that are coming alive

timmy2ply 4y ago

Just found my new hobby, learning V! Love the batteries included approach here. Kuddos :)

amedvednikov 4y ago
Enjoy! The documentation also works as a tutorial, pretty much.

goingtosleep 4y ago

I'm curious about the status and/or roadmap of REPL for vlang? Do you plan for an expressive experience with the REPL, like in interpreted languages (python, ruby...), or it just compiles each line?

amedvednikov 4y ago
REPL compiles each time, but we also have a WIP interpreter. That one is the real thing :) Not finished yet. https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/vlib/v/eval https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/vlib/v/eval

pawelduda 4y ago

Googling anything related to this language must be fun

amedvednikov 4y ago
"vlang" works fine :)
- pawelduda 4y ago
  But probably ommits potentially useful matches where the language is referred to as "v"
  - amedvednikov 4y ago
    Yeah that's true. And searching for it in chats is a pain. Lots of youtube.com?v= links instead...

dimgl 4y ago

Wow. Despite a lot of the negativity here, V looks great. I might take a stab at writing something over the weekend with it. Congratulations on the release.

alephnan 4y ago

The v2048 webassembly game demo crashed not just Chrome browser but my entire IPHone SE causing it to reboot. I reproduced this twice now.

amedvednikov 4y ago
Thanks, will have a look. wasm is not tested by CI unfortunately (yet).

nurettin 4y ago

Previously on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351

amedvednikov 4y ago
Ah yes the famous glfw dependency of the V compiler. Complete scam.
- nurettin 4y ago
  How dare you earn more than zig!?
  - Tozen 4y ago
    The audacity!

u1tron 4y ago

Golang + Rust = Vlang

amedvednikov 4y ago
You could say that. A very simplistic way to sum it up. There's no ownership in V and it's not planned. But it does borrow immutability, sum types, some elements of memory handling. V is much closer to Go, about 80% close I'd say: https://vlang.io/compare#go https://vlang.io/compare#go

Linda703 4y ago

[dead]

emblaegh 4y ago

The comments on this thread are suspiciously hyperbolic.

christophilus 4y ago
Which ones? The positive ones or the negative ones? I posted one of the positive ones. I've been following V with interest for a while (a few years, maybe?). It got a lot of shade early on, somewhat justifiably-- the initial claims were highly suspect. Past V comment threads on HN leaned very negative. That said, I like V. I'm glad to see the maintainers are still chugging along despite the criticisms. It gets better with each release. I'm still not doing anything in production with it, as it's pre 1.0, and the Postgres performance issues are still a blocker for my production use-cases. But, I really hope to someday have V in my toolbelt for the places where I currently reach for Go.
- christophilus 4y ago
  Follow up for any future readers. The Postgres perf now seems acceptable. Slower than Go’s pgx library, but within the same ballpark.

frenchie4111 4y ago

Can I suggest: On your github homepage (https://github.com/vlang/v https://github.com/vlang/v) you should put some sample code, I scrolled all the way through it and did see anything.

trenchgun 4y ago
There are tons of examples in the examples folder
amedvednikov 4y ago
There are indeed lots of examples in the top directory `examples/`. Also there's a big link on vlang.io, top menu.
gompertz 4y ago
Also view the Docs link just below the V logo, on the link you provided. It's true quite a bit of projects these days put sample code in the readme... But it probably isn't where code examples belong. Certainly wasn't the trend in 90s or early 00s.

mllllv 4y ago

Great job with the language. I’ve always found the controversy quite interesting. You know you’re doing something right when everyone attacks you. How did you get GitHub to support V just one month after release?

amedvednikov 4y ago
Thanks! This is how GitHub started to support V: https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/4564 https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/4564

minraws 4y ago

TBH, I have criticized V before, because when it launched things and claims were weird and maybe inflated, honestly don't quite remember looking at V in a good light is still hard for me. But I am willing to give it a try, so here's a shot. Can you pls, explain a few things in short really don't want to read all of the docs to figure out the basics. 1. What platforms are well supported by V and how does it work non traditional or extension based C code? 2. What happens for edge cases where the C compiler quirks are being used for code when you transpile C to V? 3. How safe is V really? Like is it memory safe, if so maybe a quick description as to how, does it provide a memory model? What about an ABI? does it match the platform C ABI or something? 4. What happens to linking to C code, is it as easy as Zig? maybe something like zig cc? 5. How is the multithreading in V? Does it have something like openmp atleast something like rayon or do we use platform threads? 6. What about the C++ interop? anything interesting more than what other languages can do? 7. What's the current state of the compiler in terms of stability? And especially the std lib? 8. Lastly anything you want to point out as a very interesting feature in V that is not hype but so comfy that I would like to atleast use V somewhere in my stack? Maybe something like Zig's cc or Nim's metaprogramming or Haskell's mind bending type system, Idris's dependent types, etc.? Preferrably not like Rust's safety thing, I love Rust but just saying things like it's safer is very weird claim without any context. Just some details are fine no need to waste your time on making a hater change their mind. Personally I am trying to keep open mind to things, I might be harsh because of ignorance or preference or just because of being a young douchey programmer but being mean to something that has stuck around, and where a bunch of people seem to be putting in effort somehow seems worse than just shitty on it, even if it's a scam.

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
Do you actually expect a response to that wall of questions? If you're that interested please read the docs, it's not that hard.
- minraws 4y ago
  Fixed the formatting, reading the docs takes time and in case of languages they don't give a lot of critical information about it's state in the docs, I have worked from Haskell to Rust to C++ professionally never has the language docs told me all the key details about the language to make a selection I was only able to get into them after months if not years of trial and error. I am not gonna pretend I have any love for V, but I will say I might look into it but spending several months or years with the language when I have such limited free time is not an option for me and many others. I fixed the formatting so it should be more clear as well. If no one wants to answer then fine I didn't ask the questions to get a definite answer as I said I am not entitled to an answer I just would like to know those things. I can wait for V to one day take over the world, die off, or someone to just make more fun memes. I don't really have a dog in this fight.

Xevi 4y ago

V looks interesting, and I wish it the very best. However the attitude of the lead developers toward criticism or negative feedback (even if it's not valid) is highly off-putting imo. Everything negative that people say appear to be taken as an "attack", and as far as I've seen they are quick on the trigger in regards to banning or blocking people that they disagree with. And at the very least they just completely disregard all negative feedback as lies, scams, conspiracies, etc. The responses I've read by the devs are in stark contrast to what I've seen in other languages I use, such as Rust. I hope that as the language evolves, the developers will start reflecting on the way that they interact with others and how it impacts people's view of V. I could never justify using a language like V in production if I couldn't even trust the lead developers to be level-headed during criticism. I'm sorry for ranting, I really wish the best for V and its maintainers.

amedvednikov 4y ago
Only I can ban, and I haven't banned anyone in 2 years. You can read my comments here about the attacks. There's actual valid criticism and feedback like in https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 But there's also trolling, harassment, and completely baseless attacks.
- mst 4y ago
  The way Cadey was treated by your community entirely ended my interest in your language.
  - amedvednikov 4y ago
    Who's Cadey? Do you have a link?
    - neven 4y ago
      mst probably meant this: https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17 https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17

kgeist 4y ago

I've been following vlang's GitHub issues lately and it feels like every second issue is about broken codegen in areas which seem so basic you wonder why it was even merged in that state. So I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the list of features/fixes is impressive and there's a growing community, and even a book, on the other hand there are endless edge cases which weren't properly thought out/tested and which break the compiler. Maybe vlang needs some sort of fuzzing?

amedvednikov 4y ago
Interesting. I have always felt the opposite. It's always been stable for me, that's why I rewrote V in V so early. We also have thousands of tests. Do you have any examples?
- kgeist 4y ago
  Right now on the very first issues page 5 issues out of 21 (if we skip feature requests) are about broken codegen (i.e. C errors). I'd expect a stable implementation to have very few codegen problems, not like this; I'd expect something like subtle correctness issues or various bugs in the standard library to be much more common (larger surface area). Another interesting example is this: https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/14804 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/14804 Passing a variable to a function works, but passing a string literal doesn't. I wonder why stuff like that even happens, it leaves an impression that the compiler has hardcoded special cases internally and breaks on input which wasn't foreseen by the implementation authors. Your solution is to get rid of the method entirely instead of fixing it, which is also somewhat strange to me. Can you explain? >Interesting. I have always felt the opposite. It's always been stable for me It could be that the patterns you use when writing V code are well-tested but when someone strays from the path and does something you wouldn't do when writing V code it easily breaks the compiler.
  - amedvednikov 4y ago
    strconv.v_sprintf is an internal function only used by the compiler in string interpolation. It should simply be made private.

MildlySerious 4y ago

This looks pretty interesting and I have a few immediate ideas for use cases. I'm getting a 504 from CF when trying to look at the vpm site currently, so I can't look around what the situation with packages is like. I will for sure check back later and play around with it over the weekend, maybe.

amedvednikov 4y ago
vpm has been restarted, I'll move it to another server soon, this one is too busy

kennywinker 4y ago

Why is assigning a constant unsafe? struct App { mut: gg &gg.Context = unsafe { 0 } } https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/f0cee25213e25289ae4c60ba9a6a12e4aadf5e9d/examples/2048/2048.v#L10 https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/f0cee25213e25289ae4c60ba9a6a...

amedvednikov 4y ago
Because it's null (unsafe{0} will be replaced with unsafe {nil}) It needs to be inited recursively with app := App { gg: &gg.Context { ... app } } And that doesn't work yet. It used to work in the initial V, but not right now. It'll be fixed in 0.4.

tayistay 4y ago

I just downloaded V. The following V code segfaults, much like C would: struct Node { val int left &Node right &Node } fn main() { n := Node { 123, 0, 0 } m := *n.left println(m) }

amedvednikov 4y ago
That's a bug, the compiler should require `unsafe { n := Node { 123,nil,nil } }`.

danielEM 4y ago

I don't care about all that fuzz-buzz, no nitpicks here as well, all I care about is here: https://github.com/vlang/v/issues https://github.com/vlang/v/issues Lovely language, but above scares me off for now. Respect to all involved and hope one day will be a day where there will be only a super sophisticated bugs left that affects 0.01% of users.

gompertz 4y ago
Before using V I had a similar concern. However I then looked at Go and see it has 7.5k issues on GitHub. Granted much bigger user base = more stuff uncovered.... So for right or wrong, 7.5k issues in 100K stars versus 750 issues on 30k stars... It doesn't look so crazy suddenly. Personally I like to see issues as it means people are actually using the language, finding bugs, and driving incremental improvement. A project with 0 issues barely indicates flawless implementation no more than the possibility it simply has 0 users.
- danielEM 4y ago
  May I ask what for you're using V? And what are your biggest concerns about V at this stage?
  - gompertz 4y ago
    I'm using V mostly for data science related applications (in production). Honestly my biggest fear is that this constant V backlash is going to do serious harm to the community and seriously impede development/adoption... I have no concerns with the language itself or the development thereof - only the consequences of threads such as these, which surface every other week. I entered in with realistic expectations from something that is version 0.3; unlike others who seem to think version 0.3 means "Mars lander ready".
    - Tozen 4y ago
      I think V will persevere, because the community has enough support and momentum to continue, and because the direction and syntax of the language will continually attract as well. Even the outrageous trolling and harsh criticisms also brings attention and curiosity about the language, that other developing languages can't and don't get. V will stay in people's minds and on their lips, keeping it popular. Many critics will say one thing, but will also be trying and using V, and it has been the case they become contributors to the language or are eager to see its next release. As the language makes corrections and continually improves, it's "baptism by fire", will make it even more viable and useful upon each release and in the long run.

Cyberdog 4y ago

I've had my eye on this language for a couple months; in particular, V UI subproject, a SwiftUI-like code-first framework for doing GUIs, caught my eye, since I rather like SwiftUI and I still need to make a human-friendly KyuWeb client for the server to be of any use. Unfortunately V UI doesn't seem to have progressed much since I last had a look on it. Here's hoping it gets the attention it deserves, because from what I've researched of GTK, it looks about as fun as a kidney stone to use, and having a modern low-level language with a closely-integrated, cross-platform modern GUI framework could really put V above the rest (SwiftUI does not have first-class support outside of Apple platforms currently). https://github.com/vlang/ui https://github.com/vlang/ui (I'd also like to see first-class support for the BSDs, but I know better than to hold my breath on that one.)