10 ms·

To summarize: If you use a Logitech bluetooth device, it creates enough interference that high-bandwidth products like the Airpods will not function correctly.

To summarize: If you use a Logitech bluetooth device, it creates enough interference that high-bandwidth products like the Airpods will not function correctly. If you switch the Logitech device to use their "unifying" adapter, which doesn't use bluetooth but a different proprietary wireless protocol, the problem goes away. Logitech acknowledged the problem about six months ago but thus far have deflected any further questions about a fix.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
SicSemperUranus 4y ago
They're probably staying silent because here in Canada at least, this could be violating federal laws. I must assume this is also true of the USA, which is usually quite comparable in these areas.
- wronglyprepaid 4y ago
  > They're probably staying silent because here in Canada at least, this could be violating federal laws. Could you elaborate?
  - neither_color 4y ago
    I think he's referring to some Canadian equivalent to the "this device may not cause harmful interference" FCC warning label we have on wireless devices.
    - glitchc 4y ago
      Harm in the spec specifically means personal injury or leading to personal injury. Headphones not working is an inconvenience. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.
      - danachow 4y ago
        No. The FCC definition of harmful is easily searchable but it is basically the same as the Canadian (Industry Canada) definition - the FCC definition is more specific about safety-related systems including radio navigation systems: "endangers the use or functioning of a safety-related radiocommunications system, or significantly degrades or obstructs, or repeatedly interrupts, the use or functioning of radio apparatus or radio-sensitive equipment."
        diroussel 4y ago
        The whole reason that these systems (Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and unifying) use 2.4GHz is because it’s unregulated. So if one Bluetooth device interferes with another, but not other bands, then it won’t be breaking any laws. But it might be breaking a contract about the use of the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi logos.
        p_l 4y ago
        The whole point of 2.4GHz band is to be a "dump" band due to interference from microwave ovens, and happens to be a global band because of microwave ovens on airliners.
        MereInterest 4y ago
        I'd love to hear the history of it, because my understanding was that the 2.4 GHz band would be useless for long-distance communication even without microwave ovens, due to atmospheric attenuation. That is, 2.4 GHz is useful for microwave ovens and useless for long-distance radio for the same reason, because they are easily absorbed by water.
        p_l 4y ago
        Essentially when microwaves were introduced the 2.4GHz spectrum wasn't allocated from my understanding, and USA proposed the current allocation as global one so that nobody would try to depend on it and then suddenly face interference from airliner's microwave oven (for example while on the ground) - this move preempted various legal issues of including the devices in airplane equipment and probably made for easier spread of microwave ovens in general as they got cheaper (because less certification etc.)
pram 4y ago
It’s annoying they still don’t make a usb-c unifying receiver.
- al_borland 4y ago
  Also annoying that the unifying receiver doesn't work with a Thunderbolt dock. I tried using it for a while and got a lot of lag and stuttering. It was really bad. So now I have a Thunderbolt dock that everything else uses, and a single USB-C to USB-A adapter hanging off the laptop just for the precious unifying receiver. I'd be less annoyed if it was USB-C plugged in directly, but still not happy. Previously I used a wired mouse, plugged into the dock, which worked great. However, I needed a new mouse as that one started to fail and the only options available through my company were wireless.
  - dt2m 4y ago
    I’ve found that if I use it on an extension lead on a USB 2.0 port (i.e. via another hub) it works fine thru a TB dock
    - Godel_unicode 4y ago
      This is a well enough known problem that a company I used to work for had warning labels on their TB docks telling you how to avoid this.
  - CTDOCodebases 4y ago
    Was it the fact that it was connected to your dock that caused the lagging and stuttering issue or was it the location of the receiver when it is plugged into the dock? The reason I ask is I have noticed this issue too when too many things are placed between the receiver and the device.
    - al_borland 4y ago
      From the other comments here it sounds like an issue with USB 3 that can be resolved with a USB extension cable. I didn't have anything other than the laptop between the receiver and the mouse. I was going to try and move it closer to see if it helped, but with some of the other cables plugged into it, I can't really move it much.
Gelob 4y ago
This has been know with Logitech products forever. Same happens with Bose qc35
ghaff 4y ago
It seems to be situational. I use an MX Master 3 with AirPods semi-regularly with Bluetooth. I won't say I never have Bluetooth peculiarities on that computer--but I have transitory Bluetooth issues on other computers as well. It's not a general incompatibility problem in my experience. (Doesn't mean it's not an issue.)
BHSPitMonkey 4y ago
Is this a flaw/weakness in the Bluetooth spec, or is one of these products misbehaving in a way that means it should have its Bluetooth qualification revoked?
- rob_c 4y ago
  I suspect both
- technick 4y ago
  I suspect it's physics, airpods don't have a high power transmitter and can't handle the congestion of another closer (closer to computer and maybe higher powered) bluetooth device using the same band.
- rodgerd 4y ago
  It's pretty suspicious that people can't reproduce the problem with other products; I kind of wonder if Logitech have been upping the power on their devices to overcome 2.4 Ghz congestion.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  Bluetooth is designed for devices backing off in response to congestion for scalability, not devices trying to shout louder than other devices.
SECProto 4y ago
My favourite part about wires is that there's never interference or poor connectivity. Aux headphones, ethernet cables, wired mouse and keyboard - all so much more painless.
- noirbot 4y ago
  I dunno, if you haven't run into audio or video interference on a wired device, you're lucky or have quality cables. I've definitely picked up radio stations on headphones or had nearby electrical currents induce an annoying buzz in a microphone or distort a video signal.
  - jakear 4y ago
    > I've definitely picked up radio stations on headphones Not exactly the same, but makes me reminisce the days of the iPod nano. It offered FM radio using the headphone cables as an antenna. I haven’t seen that supported anywhere since, which is a shame because I’d really like to get local stations on my phone.
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      Check Chinese phones brands like Xiaomi or Ulephone: https://www.amazon.com/Ulefone-Power-Armor-13-Smartphone/dp/B09B9YRFD2 https://www.amazon.com/Ulefone-Power-Armor-13-Smartphone/dp/... https://crgsoft.com/the-list-of-2019-smartphones-that-have-fm-radio/ https://crgsoft.com/the-list-of-2019-smartphones-that-have-f...
    - toast0 4y ago
      FM radio using headphones/headset as antenna is a common feature in phones. I've seen it on feature phones in 200x, and on some Androids as well. Only you can decide if it's important enough to outweigh other must have features though. There are also lots of apps to stream local radio if you have a consistent data connection (doesn't need to be fast, though)
      - SoftTalker 4y ago
onetimename 4y ago
Hijacking top comment to share a workaround I found on Reddit: 16” MBP Intel on Monterey 1. Connect headphones, assuming mouse is already connected. 2. Turn off mouse. 3. Join call. 4. Turn mouse back on.
ubertaco 4y ago
I've also found that if I used the Logitech "unifying" adapter, I _still_ had significant 2.4Ghz spectrum interference -- the Logitech adapter was causing my bluetooth headset (also in the 2.4Ghz spectrum) to have significant connectivity issues, and was also causing interference with some game controllers that operated on the 2.4Ghz spectrum in the same room. The Logitech devices connected to that dongle (an MX Master 2S and a K780) both also had frequent lag/stutter issues. You might ask, "how do you know that the Logitech devices were to blame and not one of those other devices?" Because I tested one-by-one removing each of the culprits and observing the results: - Just removing the game controllers from the room made no change - Just switching to a wired headset made no change - Switching the Logitech devices to bluetooth changed how _often_ the problems surfaced, but didn't remove the problems - Swapping the Logitech devices out for wired replacements solved the problem -- no more interference issues. I've gone all wired and dumped my Logitech wireless peripherals and not looked back. It was actually what got me into mechanical keyboards anyways, and that's a fun rabbit-hole I've been enjoying.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  I don't understand how Logitech mice are so popular given how frequently they fail due to switch problems. Everyone I know, from casual users to gamers, has had problems with logitech mouse button failures. Sometimes within months of purchase, even on their high end gaming mice that cost well north of $100, the buttons will stop working or start double-clicking.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    I've used Logitech mice for the last 20 years or more and have never had a button fail.
    - tempestn 4y ago
      I've had multiple buttons fail on my Logitech mice. It is an issue, even if not everyone experiences it. (And yet I still buy them because they have some of the best ergonomics and buttons layouts I've found in wireless mice.)
deviantbit 4y ago
I have never experienced this problem at all. I have MX Keys, MX Mouse and Airpod Pro's.
- cjdoc29 4y ago
  Which Mac are you using?
- radley 4y ago
  Same here. M1 Mac Mini with an MX Master 3.
jamesboehmer 4y ago
I found that I also had terrible problems when using any bluetooth headset in voice mode on zoom calls along with MX keys. The entire computer would stutter, keys would lag, the mouse would lag, and I'd sound like a robot on calls. The headset would also get stuck in voice mode after calls, and I'd have to forcibly restart bluetoothaudiod. The unifying receiver is unusable through a hub or connected monitor, and I don't have enough USB-A ports on the dongle to keep the unifying receiver connected all the time. Switched to an apple keyboard, and never experienced the problem with the MX mouse connected.
throwntoday 4y ago
This is good to know. I was just thinking of buying a new MX keyboard. Was planning to use it with a USB anyway but if it's gonna cause trouble for my Airpods it's gonna be a pass.
steinuil 4y ago
I suspect I have a similar problem with my WH-1000XM4, the wifi hotspot on my Pixel 4a. Whenever I was listening to music from my phone connected while also using it as a hotspot for the laptop I would start losing tons of packets and couldn't reliably connect to a work VPN, and turning the headphones off would fix those issues. I'm not sure if it was interference or if they share the same antenna on the phone or something like that though.
- gambiting 4y ago
  Yes, in many devices Wi-Fi and Bluetooth share the same antenna. It's one of the reasons why bluetooth mice haven't really caught on, because in a lot of laptops the mouse would start jumping around as soon as you used wifi at all.
2-718-281-828 4y ago
Well, my Bose QC35 and EarBuds both work via bluetooth while also using a Logitech MX Anywhere 3 also via bluetooth. So, I'd conclude that Apple is the culprit here.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

SicSemperUranus 4y ago

They're probably staying silent because here in Canada at least, this could be violating federal laws. I must assume this is also true of the USA, which is usually quite comparable in these areas.

wronglyprepaid 4y ago
> They're probably staying silent because here in Canada at least, this could be violating federal laws. Could you elaborate?
- neither_color 4y ago
  I think he's referring to some Canadian equivalent to the "this device may not cause harmful interference" FCC warning label we have on wireless devices.
  - glitchc 4y ago
    Harm in the spec specifically means personal injury or leading to personal injury. Headphones not working is an inconvenience. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.
    - danachow 4y ago
      No. The FCC definition of harmful is easily searchable but it is basically the same as the Canadian (Industry Canada) definition - the FCC definition is more specific about safety-related systems including radio navigation systems: "endangers the use or functioning of a safety-related radiocommunications system, or significantly degrades or obstructs, or repeatedly interrupts, the use or functioning of radio apparatus or radio-sensitive equipment."
      - diroussel 4y ago
        The whole reason that these systems (Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and unifying) use 2.4GHz is because it’s unregulated. So if one Bluetooth device interferes with another, but not other bands, then it won’t be breaking any laws. But it might be breaking a contract about the use of the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi logos.
        p_l 4y ago
        The whole point of 2.4GHz band is to be a "dump" band due to interference from microwave ovens, and happens to be a global band because of microwave ovens on airliners.
        MereInterest 4y ago
        I'd love to hear the history of it, because my understanding was that the 2.4 GHz band would be useless for long-distance communication even without microwave ovens, due to atmospheric attenuation. That is, 2.4 GHz is useful for microwave ovens and useless for long-distance radio for the same reason, because they are easily absorbed by water.
        p_l 4y ago
        Essentially when microwaves were introduced the 2.4GHz spectrum wasn't allocated from my understanding, and USA proposed the current allocation as global one so that nobody would try to depend on it and then suddenly face interference from airliner's microwave oven (for example while on the ground) - this move preempted various legal issues of including the devices in airplane equipment and probably made for easier spread of microwave ovens in general as they got cheaper (because less certification etc.)

pram 4y ago

It’s annoying they still don’t make a usb-c unifying receiver.

al_borland 4y ago
Also annoying that the unifying receiver doesn't work with a Thunderbolt dock. I tried using it for a while and got a lot of lag and stuttering. It was really bad. So now I have a Thunderbolt dock that everything else uses, and a single USB-C to USB-A adapter hanging off the laptop just for the precious unifying receiver. I'd be less annoyed if it was USB-C plugged in directly, but still not happy. Previously I used a wired mouse, plugged into the dock, which worked great. However, I needed a new mouse as that one started to fail and the only options available through my company were wireless.
- dt2m 4y ago
  I’ve found that if I use it on an extension lead on a USB 2.0 port (i.e. via another hub) it works fine thru a TB dock
  - Godel_unicode 4y ago
    This is a well enough known problem that a company I used to work for had warning labels on their TB docks telling you how to avoid this.
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  Was it the fact that it was connected to your dock that caused the lagging and stuttering issue or was it the location of the receiver when it is plugged into the dock? The reason I ask is I have noticed this issue too when too many things are placed between the receiver and the device.
  - al_borland 4y ago
    From the other comments here it sounds like an issue with USB 3 that can be resolved with a USB extension cable. I didn't have anything other than the laptop between the receiver and the mouse. I was going to try and move it closer to see if it helped, but with some of the other cables plugged into it, I can't really move it much.

Gelob 4y ago

This has been know with Logitech products forever. Same happens with Bose qc35

ghaff 4y ago

It seems to be situational. I use an MX Master 3 with AirPods semi-regularly with Bluetooth. I won't say I never have Bluetooth peculiarities on that computer--but I have transitory Bluetooth issues on other computers as well. It's not a general incompatibility problem in my experience. (Doesn't mean it's not an issue.)

BHSPitMonkey 4y ago

Is this a flaw/weakness in the Bluetooth spec, or is one of these products misbehaving in a way that means it should have its Bluetooth qualification revoked?

rob_c 4y ago
I suspect both
technick 4y ago
I suspect it's physics, airpods don't have a high power transmitter and can't handle the congestion of another closer (closer to computer and maybe higher powered) bluetooth device using the same band.
rodgerd 4y ago
It's pretty suspicious that people can't reproduce the problem with other products; I kind of wonder if Logitech have been upping the power on their devices to overcome 2.4 Ghz congestion.
kzrdude 4y ago
Bluetooth is designed for devices backing off in response to congestion for scalability, not devices trying to shout louder than other devices.

SECProto 4y ago

My favourite part about wires is that there's never interference or poor connectivity. Aux headphones, ethernet cables, wired mouse and keyboard - all so much more painless.

noirbot 4y ago
I dunno, if you haven't run into audio or video interference on a wired device, you're lucky or have quality cables. I've definitely picked up radio stations on headphones or had nearby electrical currents induce an annoying buzz in a microphone or distort a video signal.
- jakear 4y ago
  > I've definitely picked up radio stations on headphones Not exactly the same, but makes me reminisce the days of the iPod nano. It offered FM radio using the headphone cables as an antenna. I haven’t seen that supported anywhere since, which is a shame because I’d really like to get local stations on my phone.
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    Check Chinese phones brands like Xiaomi or Ulephone: https://www.amazon.com/Ulefone-Power-Armor-13-Smartphone/dp/B09B9YRFD2 https://www.amazon.com/Ulefone-Power-Armor-13-Smartphone/dp/... https://crgsoft.com/the-list-of-2019-smartphones-that-have-fm-radio/ https://crgsoft.com/the-list-of-2019-smartphones-that-have-f...
  - toast0 4y ago
    FM radio using headphones/headset as antenna is a common feature in phones. I've seen it on feature phones in 200x, and on some Androids as well. Only you can decide if it's important enough to outweigh other must have features though. There are also lots of apps to stream local radio if you have a consistent data connection (doesn't need to be fast, though)
    - SoftTalker 4y ago

onetimename 4y ago

Hijacking top comment to share a workaround I found on Reddit: 16” MBP Intel on Monterey 1. Connect headphones, assuming mouse is already connected. 2. Turn off mouse. 3. Join call. 4. Turn mouse back on.

ubertaco 4y ago

I've also found that if I used the Logitech "unifying" adapter, I _still_ had significant 2.4Ghz spectrum interference -- the Logitech adapter was causing my bluetooth headset (also in the 2.4Ghz spectrum) to have significant connectivity issues, and was also causing interference with some game controllers that operated on the 2.4Ghz spectrum in the same room. The Logitech devices connected to that dongle (an MX Master 2S and a K780) both also had frequent lag/stutter issues. You might ask, "how do you know that the Logitech devices were to blame and not one of those other devices?" Because I tested one-by-one removing each of the culprits and observing the results: - Just removing the game controllers from the room made no change - Just switching to a wired headset made no change - Switching the Logitech devices to bluetooth changed how _often_ the problems surfaced, but didn't remove the problems - Swapping the Logitech devices out for wired replacements solved the problem -- no more interference issues. I've gone all wired and dumped my Logitech wireless peripherals and not looked back. It was actually what got me into mechanical keyboards anyways, and that's a fun rabbit-hole I've been enjoying.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
I don't understand how Logitech mice are so popular given how frequently they fail due to switch problems. Everyone I know, from casual users to gamers, has had problems with logitech mouse button failures. Sometimes within months of purchase, even on their high end gaming mice that cost well north of $100, the buttons will stop working or start double-clicking.
- dekhn 4y ago
  I've used Logitech mice for the last 20 years or more and have never had a button fail.
  - tempestn 4y ago
    I've had multiple buttons fail on my Logitech mice. It is an issue, even if not everyone experiences it. (And yet I still buy them because they have some of the best ergonomics and buttons layouts I've found in wireless mice.)

deviantbit 4y ago

I have never experienced this problem at all. I have MX Keys, MX Mouse and Airpod Pro's.

cjdoc29 4y ago
Which Mac are you using?
radley 4y ago
Same here. M1 Mac Mini with an MX Master 3.

jamesboehmer 4y ago

I found that I also had terrible problems when using any bluetooth headset in voice mode on zoom calls along with MX keys. The entire computer would stutter, keys would lag, the mouse would lag, and I'd sound like a robot on calls. The headset would also get stuck in voice mode after calls, and I'd have to forcibly restart bluetoothaudiod. The unifying receiver is unusable through a hub or connected monitor, and I don't have enough USB-A ports on the dongle to keep the unifying receiver connected all the time. Switched to an apple keyboard, and never experienced the problem with the MX mouse connected.

throwntoday 4y ago

This is good to know. I was just thinking of buying a new MX keyboard. Was planning to use it with a USB anyway but if it's gonna cause trouble for my Airpods it's gonna be a pass.

steinuil 4y ago

I suspect I have a similar problem with my WH-1000XM4, the wifi hotspot on my Pixel 4a. Whenever I was listening to music from my phone connected while also using it as a hotspot for the laptop I would start losing tons of packets and couldn't reliably connect to a work VPN, and turning the headphones off would fix those issues. I'm not sure if it was interference or if they share the same antenna on the phone or something like that though.

gambiting 4y ago
Yes, in many devices Wi-Fi and Bluetooth share the same antenna. It's one of the reasons why bluetooth mice haven't really caught on, because in a lot of laptops the mouse would start jumping around as soon as you used wifi at all.

2-718-281-828 4y ago

Well, my Bose QC35 and EarBuds both work via bluetooth while also using a Logitech MX Anywhere 3 also via bluetooth. So, I'd conclude that Apple is the culprit here.