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> "Today just 0.2% of all ships are U.S.-flagged. Many ships now fly under the flags of Panama, Liberia and the Marshall Islands — countries that allow ocean ca

> "Today just 0.2% of all ships are U.S.-flagged. Many ships now fly under the flags of Panama, Liberia and the Marshall Islands — countries that allow ocean carriers to bypass a slew of safety regulations, labor laws and taxes. " > The US has basically regulated itself out of the shipping business. Think about that for a second and then wonder if the issue is really greed. The US regulations has made it insanely more expensive to have a US flagged ship. > How do we compete in a global market when the regulatory atmosphere is so lopsided? IMHO: pass a law that prevents ships that aren't required to follow reasonable standards for "safety regulations, labor law" from unloading cargo at US ports. That'll reduce the perverse incentives for these flags-of-convenience pretty quick.

kokanator 4y ago
You are assuming all regulations are reasonable. In the case of safety it is possible some are not reasonable. There is actually a level of safety vs risk we are willing to take for a given activity. ( Think actually getting into a car ). Mike Rowe has a great take on this and it seems like an interesting way to look at risk intersections as they pertain to 'reasonable' regulations. Regardless if those regulations are safety, environment, financial, etc. https://mikerowe.com/2020/03/walk-me-through-this-safety-third-thing/ https://mikerowe.com/2020/03/walk-me-through-this-safety-thi... Should we have regulations? Without a doubt. Can we regulate ourselves out of existence? Absolutely.
tempnow987 4y ago
The major law involved here that you claim is safety related is this: All officers have to be US Citizens and "(1)Except as otherwise provided in this section, on a documented vessel— (A)each unlicensed seaman must be— (i)a citizen of the United States; (ii)an alien lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence; or (iii)a foreign national who is enrolled in the United States Merchant Marine Academy; and (B) not more than 25 percent of the total number of unlicensed seamen on the vessel may be aliens lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence." What's interesting is that US Officers who meet standard international standards can serve on all these other ships / cruise ships flagged overseas and much more. But international crew cannot serve on a US flagged vessel, even one working entirely overseas. So there is your reason why so few folks do US flag. You could instead require safety (actual safety) and actual labor rules that simply applied to everyone, regardless of nationality. But nope, you've chosen to focus on citizenship instead. We actually have an international standard for safety - STCW – Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers. But your UK wiper (a very junior grade) with totally current STCW can't work on a us flagged ship AT ALL.
treeman79 4y ago
Empty shelves. Empty shelves everywhere.
mwint 4y ago
And, necessarily, will mean I pay more for imported goods as a US citizen. No thanks.
- eggsmediumrare 4y ago
  You already pay higher prices because of minimum wage, domestic regulations, and, to really hamfist it, laws against slavery.
- rapind 4y ago
  You’re presenting price as though that’s the only relevant point. I mean you can get an even better deal if you just stole all your neighbour’s stuff, if price is all that matters. Let’s just make that legal, and to hell with the side effects. Any discussion about regulations has to actually involve the regulations and what they are trying to achieve. Maybe some of these are overzealous? Maybe the way it was implemented was crap (one sided while allowing others to circumvent), etc.
  - oceanplexian 4y ago
    The way I see it in the workplace or any other facet of life: Any activity between two adults, where both adults are of sound mind and consent to the activity should be legal. If someone wants to sign up to work in a dangerous environment for $1/hr, so be it, as long as the risks and terms of payment were communicated and understood by both parties. Theft is not consensual, therefore it wouldn’t be legal in a laissez-faire regulatory environment. Worker exploitation also would be illegal, if the employer broke the terms of their agreement with the worker.
    - rapind 4y ago
      What are the specific regulations you’re arguing against though? Regulations aren’t just about labour, but also externalities, like dumping chemicals in the water. The Jones law cited in the article is about protecting local labour and manufacturing. Is that what we’re discussing or something else?
    - 4y ago
aunty_helen 4y ago
You’re making the assumption that all of the regulations are just, required and proportional. If 1 additional person falls overboard every million man hours worked but everyone gets cheaper shipping, do I care? No, not really. If your answer is yes, then do you care about the safety conditions of the factories of the goods being transported? How far are you willing to take this?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Do you care if the ship is crewed by slaves who were stolen from their homes?
  - aunty_helen 4y ago
    Nope. It’s sad. Would you avoid buying Nike shoes because their factories have slave labor?
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Yeah I would and do avoid that. And no, I’m not doing research to make maximally ethical decisions. I would greatly prefer if it were either outlawed or at least clearly labeled
      - nobodyandproud 4y ago
        > And no, I’m not doing research to make maximally ethical decisions. I would greatly prefer if it were either outlawed or at least clearly labeled That’s a problem. A law doesn’t mean much unless people are both willing to uncover violations and also enforce the laws.
        oneoff786 4y ago
        It is not feasible for an individual to stay maximally informed on all things. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

kokanator 4y ago

You are assuming all regulations are reasonable. In the case of safety it is possible some are not reasonable. There is actually a level of safety vs risk we are willing to take for a given activity. ( Think actually getting into a car ). Mike Rowe has a great take on this and it seems like an interesting way to look at risk intersections as they pertain to 'reasonable' regulations. Regardless if those regulations are safety, environment, financial, etc. https://mikerowe.com/2020/03/walk-me-through-this-safety-third-thing/ https://mikerowe.com/2020/03/walk-me-through-this-safety-thi... Should we have regulations? Without a doubt. Can we regulate ourselves out of existence? Absolutely.

tempnow987 4y ago

The major law involved here that you claim is safety related is this: All officers have to be US Citizens and "(1)Except as otherwise provided in this section, on a documented vessel— (A)each unlicensed seaman must be— (i)a citizen of the United States; (ii)an alien lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence; or (iii)a foreign national who is enrolled in the United States Merchant Marine Academy; and (B) not more than 25 percent of the total number of unlicensed seamen on the vessel may be aliens lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence." What's interesting is that US Officers who meet standard international standards can serve on all these other ships / cruise ships flagged overseas and much more. But international crew cannot serve on a US flagged vessel, even one working entirely overseas. So there is your reason why so few folks do US flag. You could instead require safety (actual safety) and actual labor rules that simply applied to everyone, regardless of nationality. But nope, you've chosen to focus on citizenship instead. We actually have an international standard for safety - STCW – Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers. But your UK wiper (a very junior grade) with totally current STCW can't work on a us flagged ship AT ALL.

treeman79 4y ago

Empty shelves. Empty shelves everywhere.

mwint 4y ago

And, necessarily, will mean I pay more for imported goods as a US citizen. No thanks.

eggsmediumrare 4y ago
You already pay higher prices because of minimum wage, domestic regulations, and, to really hamfist it, laws against slavery.
rapind 4y ago
You’re presenting price as though that’s the only relevant point. I mean you can get an even better deal if you just stole all your neighbour’s stuff, if price is all that matters. Let’s just make that legal, and to hell with the side effects. Any discussion about regulations has to actually involve the regulations and what they are trying to achieve. Maybe some of these are overzealous? Maybe the way it was implemented was crap (one sided while allowing others to circumvent), etc.
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  The way I see it in the workplace or any other facet of life: Any activity between two adults, where both adults are of sound mind and consent to the activity should be legal. If someone wants to sign up to work in a dangerous environment for $1/hr, so be it, as long as the risks and terms of payment were communicated and understood by both parties. Theft is not consensual, therefore it wouldn’t be legal in a laissez-faire regulatory environment. Worker exploitation also would be illegal, if the employer broke the terms of their agreement with the worker.
  - rapind 4y ago
    What are the specific regulations you’re arguing against though? Regulations aren’t just about labour, but also externalities, like dumping chemicals in the water. The Jones law cited in the article is about protecting local labour and manufacturing. Is that what we’re discussing or something else?
  - 4y ago

aunty_helen 4y ago

You’re making the assumption that all of the regulations are just, required and proportional. If 1 additional person falls overboard every million man hours worked but everyone gets cheaper shipping, do I care? No, not really. If your answer is yes, then do you care about the safety conditions of the factories of the goods being transported? How far are you willing to take this?

oneoff786 4y ago
Do you care if the ship is crewed by slaves who were stolen from their homes?
- aunty_helen 4y ago
  Nope. It’s sad. Would you avoid buying Nike shoes because their factories have slave labor?
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Yeah I would and do avoid that. And no, I’m not doing research to make maximally ethical decisions. I would greatly prefer if it were either outlawed or at least clearly labeled
    - nobodyandproud 4y ago
      > And no, I’m not doing research to make maximally ethical decisions. I would greatly prefer if it were either outlawed or at least clearly labeled That’s a problem. A law doesn’t mean much unless people are both willing to uncover violations and also enforce the laws.
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        It is not feasible for an individual to stay maximally informed on all things. The perfect is the enemy of the good.