5 ms·

What happens if I don't want to identify myself? What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet

by iasay 4y ago

What happens if I don't want to identify myself? What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet or it is compromised? Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care.

d8c6c050cb0a4d7 4y ago
> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? It is already an offence in several EU countries to fail to present official ID documents when asked by the police. If you don't want to identity yourself the outcome will likely depend on the mood of the police office. They may give you a verbal warning and send you on your way or they may choose to arrest you until they can ascertain your identity.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- iasay 4y ago
  Yes the police for sure, but this is normalising full ID verification everywhere. At some point there will be a situation where you cannot do anything because you are in the 0.01% of the system that is broken.
  - xxs 4y ago
    >Yes the police for sure, but this is normalising full ID verification everywhere. The UK is not a part of the EU any longer, for pretty much all of the rest member states, that has not been an issue for quite some time... save for Ireland. >At some point there will be a situation where you cannot do anything because you are in the 0.01% of the system that is broken. The issued ID plastic cards would be as useful when you are present in person.
  - d8c6c050cb0a4d7 4y ago
    That's already the case. Since you must be able to identify yourself when asked, you have an obligation to carry your identification with you. I believe the obligation to carry identification, and to have identification are enforced differently in different countries / states. But there is more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_of_identification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_of_identification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area#Overview_of_national_identity_cards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the... > At some point there will be a situation where you cannot do anything because you are in the 0.01% of the system that is broken. Not wanting to identify yourself and not being able to identify yourself are two seperate topics. I sympathise with people who fall outside of the system, but e-identity is currently a matter of convenience for people who already have identity documents and are seeking easier ways of accessing services online.
misja111 4y ago
Replace 'digital ID' with 'passport' in any of your questions and you will find the answer. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. The EU digital ID is based on EIDAS, a technology that is already in use by banks in the entire EU. You can be sure it is safe, otherwise any bank in the EU would have been hacked already.
- wfn 4y ago
  Just to clarify, eIDAS is an EU regulation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIDAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIDAS). Regulation means it's law in all EU member states. Organisations can implement eIDAS-conforming technology to provide eID services if they get certified; e.g. our company provides such services (remote onboarding without video conference need + qualified electronic signature signing): https://www.zealid.com/en/ https://www.zealid.com/en/
yourusername 4y ago
>What happens if I don't want to identify myself? That's already illegal in many countries. You'll be fined and possibly arrested until you can prove who you are.
- iasay 4y ago
  When you book a hotel you will be fined and arrested until you can prove who you are? That's the use case being promoted.
  - Keirmot 4y ago
    That's a strawman if I ever saw one. If you don't provide ID to the hotel they may refuse sell you their services. If you don't provide ID to the police, however, that's another issue altogether.
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      The poster is probably just trying to build a cases tree. "What if I will not have electronic devices to buy prescribed medicines? // Then you will probably present a paper copy of the presctiption // Will it be allowed tough?".
  - sofixa 4y ago
    In some countries/cities it's already mandatory to provide ID when booking.
threeseed 4y ago
None of these questions are new. Verifying your identity without a global ID is done today through a combination of primary and secondary identifiers. For example a passport and bank statement. Or a driver's license and recent tenancy agreement. So if you don't want to verify yourself using the above combination then companies and the government will simply not choose to interact with you. And not sure if you've used a phone before. But you don't need the full iCloud password to unlock your phone and access a digital ID. You just need FaceID, TouchID or a 4/6-digit PIN.
- iasay 4y ago
  The issue is more what happens when you buy a new phone or lose the old one. Then you need the full iCloud details and password. More than one person I know has got to that state and have no idea what it was. They don't even know what their own email address is to start with. Incidentally I know how it works. I work next to the sector. The issue is that these are all legitimate questions that we have to work with daily and the abstract "we will arrest you until you ID yourself" does not work when you book a hotel...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ranguna 4y ago
> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? That's a non issue in the EU. > What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? Governments will probably pay this for you. > What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet or it is compromised? Same as the current EU eIDs in use right now or a passport. Revoke and reissue. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. True, but that's probably something that needs to be improved with education.
- closewith 4y ago
  > That's a non issue in the EU. Maybe in your EU country. ID cards are not mandatory in mine (Ireland) - a national ID card has been rejected by the electorate multiple times. Be careful not to generalise your own experience to the entire bloc - it's not a homogeneous entity.
  - ranguna 4y ago
    You are right, apologies.
  - xxs 4y ago
    Actually I can think of only Ireland...
    - dalke 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_Sweden: "There are several identity documents used in Sweden. None are compulsory by law, meaning that there is no formal penalty for not possessing one." In practice things are more difficult without one one. (Mine expired in January. I didn't notice until I needed to pick up a package a few weeks ago. Ended up using my US passport instead.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document says "A number of countries have voluntary identity card schemes. These include Austria, Belize, Finland, France (see France section), Hungary (however, all citizens of Hungary must have at least one of: valid passport, photo-based driving licence, or the National ID card), Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Saint Lucia, Sweden, Switzerland and the United States." Checking Finland, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card says it's about the same as Sweden: "Possession of an ID card or any ID document is non-compulsory in Finland, though interactions with officials and companies, like voting, picking up a parcel from Posti offices or buying alcohol when a salesperson suspects buyer to be under 18 or 30 years old, can be difficult or impossible without an ID card, a passport or a driving licence." As I recall, in Sweden to vote without id you need someone who does have an id and knows you to vouch for you.
Keirmot 4y ago
Please forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions here, but I'm guessing you're American. > What happens if I don't want to identify myself? In some countries that is not an option. For example, in Portugal when in a public space, the police has the ability to ask for ID if they have a reason. They must first identify themselves, and list the reasons to ask for identification. If you have no valid ID with name and photo, someone that knows you and can attest to your ID can do it, IF they themselves have ID. If you're alone, you can either ask someone to take your documents to where you are, or ask the police to go with you to where you have them. If that is still not possible for whatever reason, they you can be taken into a police station until you're properly identified and your fingerprints are taken. After all that, if the reason why you were identified lead to nothing you can request for the info on you to be eliminated. > What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? Most countries have state issued ID cards. Note, I wrote most, not all. > What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet or it is compromised? Same thing that happens when you lose your wallet, I guess. Go to the nearest police station, tell what happened. Then go on from there. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. People take government stuff more seriously than they do other things. For example, my mother that can't remember her router password knows her hexadecimal password to the IRS website by heart. My in-laws kept the letters from the IRS with the password in a well known place just to use it once a year when they need to fill their forms. I'm not saying there's implicit trust in governments in the EU, but from the discourse on the internet, it's clear to me that most (western) european citizens trust their government more than Americans, overall.
- iasay 4y ago
  I'm actually from UK and travel a lot in the EU. Having been in a police station in Portugal they'd probably laugh at you for getting your wallet ripped off and run you to the airport. And then there's the smaller towns in Germany. They don't even accept cards out there yet. Cash or fuck off. I think this is far off the status quo across Europe.
- verisimi 4y ago
  > I'm not saying there's implicit trust in governments in the EU, but from the discourse on the internet, it's clear to me that most (western) european citizens trust their government more than Americans, overall. This is absolutely right. And they are fools to do so! The government can write legislation such as the police have the right to see your id, and everyone is meant to show it! This is nothing to do with right or wrong. It can be couched as 'protecting people' whilst being tyrannical. At least in the US they have access to weaponry to give those government officials pause for thought of they attempt to implement tyranny. Europe is already defanged though - who could fight back, even if they wanted to? The prospect is rigid stasis - governed by an unelected elite, who have the mechanism of fine grained control over every citizen. Its neo-feudalism via technocracy.
kabes 4y ago
> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? The same thing as what happens in the offline world when you try to open a bank account or board a plane without ID: You're refused. Like it or not, for some services you need to identify yourself. > What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? While this is an issue, the issue is with a service being available only online. That issue already exists. Most governmental stuff is obligated by law to be available offline as well, but for private companies its more difficult. E.g. If I want to open a bank account and I don't have a phone or computer, some banks already make it hard to do it in person. > What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet or it is compromised? The same thing as what happens in the offline world. Procedure depends on where you live. Here you have to file a record to the local police and you get a new ID card a couple of days later. Now it can probably actually be blocked and you get a new id immediately. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. It's up to the government to educate people and make a foolproof system. That's easier said than done but a lot of countries already have digital ID systems and it's worked well for almost 2 decades now.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > some banks already make it hard to do it in person It is called a good market that you avoid them.
onion2k 4y ago
What happens if I don't want to identify myself? This is the proposed solution. The point is that the ID system only gives someone the information that they need. If you only want to prove something like "age > 18" then you can do that without giving up your name, address, ethnicity, etc. Every existing solution to that requires you have over more than a boolean answer that your age is above a minimum threshold. This is effectively "attribute-based access control" (eg IAM) for the real world.
raverbashing 4y ago
The digital ID is optional Requirement of carrying ID varies country by country
moffkalast 4y ago
> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? You get arrested until the police can figure out who you are, at least that's how it works presently in most of the EU.

by iasay 4y ago

d8c6c050cb0a4d7 4y ago

> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? It is already an offence in several EU countries to fail to present official ID documents when asked by the police. If you don't want to identity yourself the outcome will likely depend on the mood of the police office. They may give you a verbal warning and send you on your way or they may choose to arrest you until they can ascertain your identity.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
iasay 4y ago
Yes the police for sure, but this is normalising full ID verification everywhere. At some point there will be a situation where you cannot do anything because you are in the 0.01% of the system that is broken.
- xxs 4y ago
  >Yes the police for sure, but this is normalising full ID verification everywhere. The UK is not a part of the EU any longer, for pretty much all of the rest member states, that has not been an issue for quite some time... save for Ireland. >At some point there will be a situation where you cannot do anything because you are in the 0.01% of the system that is broken. The issued ID plastic cards would be as useful when you are present in person.
- d8c6c050cb0a4d7 4y ago
  That's already the case. Since you must be able to identify yourself when asked, you have an obligation to carry your identification with you. I believe the obligation to carry identification, and to have identification are enforced differently in different countries / states. But there is more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_of_identification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_of_identification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area#Overview_of_national_identity_cards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the... > At some point there will be a situation where you cannot do anything because you are in the 0.01% of the system that is broken. Not wanting to identify yourself and not being able to identify yourself are two seperate topics. I sympathise with people who fall outside of the system, but e-identity is currently a matter of convenience for people who already have identity documents and are seeking easier ways of accessing services online.

misja111 4y ago

Replace 'digital ID' with 'passport' in any of your questions and you will find the answer. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. The EU digital ID is based on EIDAS, a technology that is already in use by banks in the entire EU. You can be sure it is safe, otherwise any bank in the EU would have been hacked already.

wfn 4y ago
Just to clarify, eIDAS is an EU regulation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIDAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIDAS). Regulation means it's law in all EU member states. Organisations can implement eIDAS-conforming technology to provide eID services if they get certified; e.g. our company provides such services (remote onboarding without video conference need + qualified electronic signature signing): https://www.zealid.com/en/ https://www.zealid.com/en/

yourusername 4y ago

>What happens if I don't want to identify myself? That's already illegal in many countries. You'll be fined and possibly arrested until you can prove who you are.

iasay 4y ago
When you book a hotel you will be fined and arrested until you can prove who you are? That's the use case being promoted.
- Keirmot 4y ago
  That's a strawman if I ever saw one. If you don't provide ID to the hotel they may refuse sell you their services. If you don't provide ID to the police, however, that's another issue altogether.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    The poster is probably just trying to build a cases tree. "What if I will not have electronic devices to buy prescribed medicines? // Then you will probably present a paper copy of the presctiption // Will it be allowed tough?".
- sofixa 4y ago
  In some countries/cities it's already mandatory to provide ID when booking.

threeseed 4y ago

None of these questions are new. Verifying your identity without a global ID is done today through a combination of primary and secondary identifiers. For example a passport and bank statement. Or a driver's license and recent tenancy agreement. So if you don't want to verify yourself using the above combination then companies and the government will simply not choose to interact with you. And not sure if you've used a phone before. But you don't need the full iCloud password to unlock your phone and access a digital ID. You just need FaceID, TouchID or a 4/6-digit PIN.

iasay 4y ago
The issue is more what happens when you buy a new phone or lose the old one. Then you need the full iCloud details and password. More than one person I know has got to that state and have no idea what it was. They don't even know what their own email address is to start with. Incidentally I know how it works. I work next to the sector. The issue is that these are all legitimate questions that we have to work with daily and the abstract "we will arrest you until you ID yourself" does not work when you book a hotel...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ranguna 4y ago

> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? That's a non issue in the EU. > What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? Governments will probably pay this for you. > What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet or it is compromised? Same as the current EU eIDs in use right now or a passport. Revoke and reissue. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. True, but that's probably something that needs to be improved with education.

closewith 4y ago
> That's a non issue in the EU. Maybe in your EU country. ID cards are not mandatory in mine (Ireland) - a national ID card has been rejected by the electorate multiple times. Be careful not to generalise your own experience to the entire bloc - it's not a homogeneous entity.
- ranguna 4y ago
  You are right, apologies.
- xxs 4y ago
  Actually I can think of only Ireland...
  - dalke 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_Sweden: "There are several identity documents used in Sweden. None are compulsory by law, meaning that there is no formal penalty for not possessing one." In practice things are more difficult without one one. (Mine expired in January. I didn't notice until I needed to pick up a package a few weeks ago. Ended up using my US passport instead.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document says "A number of countries have voluntary identity card schemes. These include Austria, Belize, Finland, France (see France section), Hungary (however, all citizens of Hungary must have at least one of: valid passport, photo-based driving licence, or the National ID card), Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Saint Lucia, Sweden, Switzerland and the United States." Checking Finland, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card says it's about the same as Sweden: "Possession of an ID card or any ID document is non-compulsory in Finland, though interactions with officials and companies, like voting, picking up a parcel from Posti offices or buying alcohol when a salesperson suspects buyer to be under 18 or 30 years old, can be difficult or impossible without an ID card, a passport or a driving licence." As I recall, in Sweden to vote without id you need someone who does have an id and knows you to vouch for you.

Keirmot 4y ago

Please forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions here, but I'm guessing you're American. > What happens if I don't want to identify myself? In some countries that is not an option. For example, in Portugal when in a public space, the police has the ability to ask for ID if they have a reason. They must first identify themselves, and list the reasons to ask for identification. If you have no valid ID with name and photo, someone that knows you and can attest to your ID can do it, IF they themselves have ID. If you're alone, you can either ask someone to take your documents to where you are, or ask the police to go with you to where you have them. If that is still not possible for whatever reason, they you can be taken into a police station until you're properly identified and your fingerprints are taken. After all that, if the reason why you were identified lead to nothing you can request for the info on you to be eliminated. > What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? Most countries have state issued ID cards. Note, I wrote most, not all. > What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet or it is compromised? Same thing that happens when you lose your wallet, I guess. Go to the nearest police station, tell what happened. Then go on from there. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. People take government stuff more seriously than they do other things. For example, my mother that can't remember her router password knows her hexadecimal password to the IRS website by heart. My in-laws kept the letters from the IRS with the password in a well known place just to use it once a year when they need to fill their forms. I'm not saying there's implicit trust in governments in the EU, but from the discourse on the internet, it's clear to me that most (western) european citizens trust their government more than Americans, overall.

iasay 4y ago
I'm actually from UK and travel a lot in the EU. Having been in a police station in Portugal they'd probably laugh at you for getting your wallet ripped off and run you to the airport. And then there's the smaller towns in Germany. They don't even accept cards out there yet. Cash or fuck off. I think this is far off the status quo across Europe.
verisimi 4y ago
> I'm not saying there's implicit trust in governments in the EU, but from the discourse on the internet, it's clear to me that most (western) european citizens trust their government more than Americans, overall. This is absolutely right. And they are fools to do so! The government can write legislation such as the police have the right to see your id, and everyone is meant to show it! This is nothing to do with right or wrong. It can be couched as 'protecting people' whilst being tyrannical. At least in the US they have access to weaponry to give those government officials pause for thought of they attempt to implement tyranny. Europe is already defanged though - who could fight back, even if they wanted to? The prospect is rigid stasis - governed by an unelected elite, who have the mechanism of fine grained control over every citizen. Its neo-feudalism via technocracy.

kabes 4y ago

> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? The same thing as what happens in the offline world when you try to open a bank account or board a plane without ID: You're refused. Like it or not, for some services you need to identify yourself. > What happens if poverty does not allow me to carry a digital ID? While this is an issue, the issue is with a service being available only online. That issue already exists. Most governmental stuff is obligated by law to be available offline as well, but for private companies its more difficult. E.g. If I want to open a bank account and I don't have a phone or computer, some banks already make it hard to do it in person. > What happens if I lose my digital ID wallet or it is compromised? The same thing as what happens in the offline world. Procedure depends on where you live. Here you have to file a record to the local police and you get a new ID card a couple of days later. Now it can probably actually be blocked and you get a new id immediately. > Also judging by dealing with the average citizen on a daily basis, even securing an iOS device and remembering the iCloud password is beyond their level of care. It's up to the government to educate people and make a foolproof system. That's easier said than done but a lot of countries already have digital ID systems and it's worked well for almost 2 decades now.

mdp2021 4y ago
> some banks already make it hard to do it in person It is called a good market that you avoid them.

onion2k 4y ago

What happens if I don't want to identify myself? This is the proposed solution. The point is that the ID system only gives someone the information that they need. If you only want to prove something like "age > 18" then you can do that without giving up your name, address, ethnicity, etc. Every existing solution to that requires you have over more than a boolean answer that your age is above a minimum threshold. This is effectively "attribute-based access control" (eg IAM) for the real world.

raverbashing 4y ago

The digital ID is optional Requirement of carrying ID varies country by country

moffkalast 4y ago

> What happens if I don't want to identify myself? You get arrested until the police can figure out who you are, at least that's how it works presently in most of the EU.