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Interview with the author of “Buy Now”, a book about Amazon

42 points by axiomdata316 4y ago

Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
Amazon has a monopoly over commerce in the same way Aquafina has a monopoly over water. Water is everywhere, much like commerce. Aquafina like Amazon might be the leader but the 2 companies global marketshare in their respective businesses is maybe 1%, probably even less when measured in volume/quantities exchanged and not in dollars
- willnonya 4y ago
  This aeticle/book seem not to grasp what a monopoly really is. It wasn't long ago when people levied these same claims against Walmart only to see that evaporate as competition arose.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    Ironically, the big anti-Amazon campaign in 2020-21 coincided with Walmart launching their competing Walmart+. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Walton family themselves orchestrated/fueled a lot of this misinformation.
jmyeet 4y ago
It's fashionable in some corners to pontificate on breaking up Big Tech these days. On Facebook, I'm honestly not concerned. Just look at the last few years where facebook.com fades into irrelevance (with IG not that far behind) while TikTok has surged and honestly poses an existential threat to FB's business (IMHO). That problem, if you consider it one, will take care of it self. On Google, I'm not concerned either. Google dominates search because it's quite simply better than everyone else. Using another search engine is easy. Making that alternative search engine obviously isn't but the modern doctrine of US antitrust is not to protect competitors from competition; it's to protect consumers from anticompetitive behaviour. You can argue all sorts of anticompetitive behaviour. I'm not yet convinced by any of it. As an aside, it'd be foolish to engage in killing our own golden geese while Chinese competitors rise in influence, especially given the deep ties between Chinese companies and the CCP and the fact that the Chinese market is typically barred to competitors while Western markets aren't barred to Chinese companies. And then there's Amazon. To me, Amazon is the clearest case for government action for it's effective monopoly over distribution. Yes you can sell stuff on your own website. You can ship physical products. But in doing so you cannot compete with Amazon's price-points, speed and overall logistics. On this the Chinese too have had an advantage by taking advantage of the postage union in a way that a domestic supplier cannot. I'm not sure this has yet reached the level that warrants government action. When it does I'm honestly not sure what we'd even do.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >It's fashionable in some corners to pontificate on breaking up Big Tech these days. [...] >As an aside, it'd be foolish to engage in killing our own golden geese while Chinese competitors rise in influence Harry Truman said in 1945 about the atomic bomb, "We thank God that it has come to us, instead of to our enemies". I feel the same way about FAANG (including Amazon) and Silicon Valley as a whole (and Wall Street, and Hollywood, and SpaceX/Tesla, and the Ivy League), that they are in the United States. That doesn't mean I approve of everything they do. That doesn't mean I can't or won't decry their putting thumbs on scales toward a certain type of bien-pensant ideology. That does mean that, overall, I am very, very glad that they are American instead of Russian, Chinese, or even British, French, or German.
  - waynesonfire 4y ago
    You're absolutely right. We were at war in 1945, we are at war now, and will be in the future. The world is a savage place and will destroy you. Fact. Now, let's talk about abortion.. yawn life is good you see.
- mr_toad 4y ago
  > effective monopoly over distribution Around 50-60% of US e-commerce isn’t a very effective monopoly. What would more competition do? Drive down already thin margins?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Amazon is not even the biggest US retailer (though it’s forecast to pass Walmart within a few years). Online commerce is only 19-ish percent of total retail sales. Amazon is a formidable competitor, but it’s hard for me to conclude they have an effective monopoly on distribution in their retail business.
  - kwatsonafter 4y ago
    Reasonable people like you give me faith in the world.
- 4y ago
superb-owl 4y ago
After months of deliberation, I've just cancelled my Prime membership. I'm not so much concerned about the abstract idea of Amazon as a monopoly, as I am about my complicity in creating terrible, coercive working conditions for a huge number of people. I'm sure I'll still order the occasional hard to find item from them, but I'm going to at least make it harder for myself.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Do you buy electronic hardware - from any company? Or do “terrible working conditions” only matter if the workers are in the US?
  - superb-owl 4y ago
    It absolutely matters elsewhere. I don't buy much electronic equipment but I try to make sure I know where my clothes and food come from.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You don’t buy phones or computers?
- LegitShady 4y ago
  its really not worth months of deliberation. Not only does it not matter, the next time you try to order something from amazon they're going to try to trick you 3 times in the checkout process to opt back into prime. You can go back easily. Myself I noticed without prime I'm a lot less likely to randomly decide to buy things, and often when I look on amazon a local retailer is the same or cheaper. If I do order something its ok to not get it the next day. Its convenient but its really not the end of the world.
  - superb-owl 4y ago
    No joke. It took me at least 5 clicks to cancel. Still easier than cancelling my NYT subscription though.
huitzitziltzin 4y ago
Claims that Amazon has a monopoly on anything need at a bare minimum to engage carefully with antitrust literature on market definition. If you are going to say they monopolize X, then X needs to be a plausibly defined market. Example: they have a 40% share of online retail and you want to assert that that constitutes a monopoly. Is “online retail” a relevant market as consumers see it? (Probably not, bc they retain the ability to go to stores in person!) Is it a relevant market in the sense that Amazon has the ability to exert upward pressure on prices in that market? (Surely not. The search costs in online goods markets are zero.) You are going to have a very hard time arguing that they monopolize that market (or any other) if you can’t at least define it, show that your definition is credible, and show that they exert some market power in that market. When you fail to engage with the issue of market definition seriously, you run into the problem the government did recently when they made a monopolization claim against Facebook. The judge specifically called them out for failing to define the market they were going to accuse Facebook of monopolizing. That was in this field an embarrassingly basic error to make. (They did file an amended complaint but I still expect they will lose this case.) Needless to say this author is totally ignorant of this literature. Source: economics professor who teaches antitrust to undergrads and grads.
- pwillia7 4y ago
  To run afoul of antitrust law you don't need to be a monopoly though, you only need to engage in monopolistic behavior to harm competition and/or consumers -- at least if you buy another company.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  I think you are right, and that makes it scarier. Either, as you say, high profile year long researched lawsuits are directed by incompetent people, either the standard set to define a monopoly has become irrelevant (which could also be because of the companies adjusting for them to make them irrelevant to their activities). Which could explain why these kind of regulation only seem to be coming from the EU and a bit from SEA. Your insights reads to me like the US doesn't have a clear path forward at this point.
  - 4y ago
avl999 4y ago
The only thing Amazon monopolized is a great product for its customers at an excellent price-point. Very few services come to match the value proposition that Amazon provides.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mrkramer 4y ago
It was bound to happen; monopoly is an emergent property of capitalism and the end goal of any for-profit corporation.

42 points by axiomdata316 4y ago

Amazon has a monopoly over commerce in the same way Aquafina has a monopoly over water. Water is everywhere, much like commerce. Aquafina like Amazon might be the leader but the 2 companies global marketshare in their respective businesses is maybe 1%, probably even less when measured in volume/quantities exchanged and not in dollars

willnonya 4y ago
This aeticle/book seem not to grasp what a monopoly really is. It wasn't long ago when people levied these same claims against Walmart only to see that evaporate as competition arose.
- pphysch 4y ago
  Ironically, the big anti-Amazon campaign in 2020-21 coincided with Walmart launching their competing Walmart+. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Walton family themselves orchestrated/fueled a lot of this misinformation.

jmyeet 4y ago

It's fashionable in some corners to pontificate on breaking up Big Tech these days. On Facebook, I'm honestly not concerned. Just look at the last few years where facebook.com fades into irrelevance (with IG not that far behind) while TikTok has surged and honestly poses an existential threat to FB's business (IMHO). That problem, if you consider it one, will take care of it self. On Google, I'm not concerned either. Google dominates search because it's quite simply better than everyone else. Using another search engine is easy. Making that alternative search engine obviously isn't but the modern doctrine of US antitrust is not to protect competitors from competition; it's to protect consumers from anticompetitive behaviour. You can argue all sorts of anticompetitive behaviour. I'm not yet convinced by any of it. As an aside, it'd be foolish to engage in killing our own golden geese while Chinese competitors rise in influence, especially given the deep ties between Chinese companies and the CCP and the fact that the Chinese market is typically barred to competitors while Western markets aren't barred to Chinese companies. And then there's Amazon. To me, Amazon is the clearest case for government action for it's effective monopoly over distribution. Yes you can sell stuff on your own website. You can ship physical products. But in doing so you cannot compete with Amazon's price-points, speed and overall logistics. On this the Chinese too have had an advantage by taking advantage of the postage union in a way that a domestic supplier cannot. I'm not sure this has yet reached the level that warrants government action. When it does I'm honestly not sure what we'd even do.

TMWNN 4y ago
>It's fashionable in some corners to pontificate on breaking up Big Tech these days. [...] >As an aside, it'd be foolish to engage in killing our own golden geese while Chinese competitors rise in influence Harry Truman said in 1945 about the atomic bomb, "We thank God that it has come to us, instead of to our enemies". I feel the same way about FAANG (including Amazon) and Silicon Valley as a whole (and Wall Street, and Hollywood, and SpaceX/Tesla, and the Ivy League), that they are in the United States. That doesn't mean I approve of everything they do. That doesn't mean I can't or won't decry their putting thumbs on scales toward a certain type of bien-pensant ideology. That does mean that, overall, I am very, very glad that they are American instead of Russian, Chinese, or even British, French, or German.
- waynesonfire 4y ago
  You're absolutely right. We were at war in 1945, we are at war now, and will be in the future. The world is a savage place and will destroy you. Fact. Now, let's talk about abortion.. yawn life is good you see.
mr_toad 4y ago
> effective monopoly over distribution Around 50-60% of US e-commerce isn’t a very effective monopoly. What would more competition do? Drive down already thin margins?
sokoloff 4y ago
Amazon is not even the biggest US retailer (though it’s forecast to pass Walmart within a few years). Online commerce is only 19-ish percent of total retail sales. Amazon is a formidable competitor, but it’s hard for me to conclude they have an effective monopoly on distribution in their retail business.
- kwatsonafter 4y ago
  Reasonable people like you give me faith in the world.
4y ago

superb-owl 4y ago

After months of deliberation, I've just cancelled my Prime membership. I'm not so much concerned about the abstract idea of Amazon as a monopoly, as I am about my complicity in creating terrible, coercive working conditions for a huge number of people. I'm sure I'll still order the occasional hard to find item from them, but I'm going to at least make it harder for myself.

scarface74 4y ago
Do you buy electronic hardware - from any company? Or do “terrible working conditions” only matter if the workers are in the US?
- superb-owl 4y ago
  It absolutely matters elsewhere. I don't buy much electronic equipment but I try to make sure I know where my clothes and food come from.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You don’t buy phones or computers?
LegitShady 4y ago
its really not worth months of deliberation. Not only does it not matter, the next time you try to order something from amazon they're going to try to trick you 3 times in the checkout process to opt back into prime. You can go back easily. Myself I noticed without prime I'm a lot less likely to randomly decide to buy things, and often when I look on amazon a local retailer is the same or cheaper. If I do order something its ok to not get it the next day. Its convenient but its really not the end of the world.
- superb-owl 4y ago
  No joke. It took me at least 5 clicks to cancel. Still easier than cancelling my NYT subscription though.

huitzitziltzin 4y ago

Claims that Amazon has a monopoly on anything need at a bare minimum to engage carefully with antitrust literature on market definition. If you are going to say they monopolize X, then X needs to be a plausibly defined market. Example: they have a 40% share of online retail and you want to assert that that constitutes a monopoly. Is “online retail” a relevant market as consumers see it? (Probably not, bc they retain the ability to go to stores in person!) Is it a relevant market in the sense that Amazon has the ability to exert upward pressure on prices in that market? (Surely not. The search costs in online goods markets are zero.) You are going to have a very hard time arguing that they monopolize that market (or any other) if you can’t at least define it, show that your definition is credible, and show that they exert some market power in that market. When you fail to engage with the issue of market definition seriously, you run into the problem the government did recently when they made a monopolization claim against Facebook. The judge specifically called them out for failing to define the market they were going to accuse Facebook of monopolizing. That was in this field an embarrassingly basic error to make. (They did file an amended complaint but I still expect they will lose this case.) Needless to say this author is totally ignorant of this literature. Source: economics professor who teaches antitrust to undergrads and grads.

pwillia7 4y ago
To run afoul of antitrust law you don't need to be a monopoly though, you only need to engage in monopolistic behavior to harm competition and/or consumers -- at least if you buy another company.
makeitdouble 4y ago
I think you are right, and that makes it scarier. Either, as you say, high profile year long researched lawsuits are directed by incompetent people, either the standard set to define a monopoly has become irrelevant (which could also be because of the companies adjusting for them to make them irrelevant to their activities). Which could explain why these kind of regulation only seem to be coming from the EU and a bit from SEA. Your insights reads to me like the US doesn't have a clear path forward at this point.
- 4y ago

avl999 4y ago

The only thing Amazon monopolized is a great product for its customers at an excellent price-point. Very few services come to match the value proposition that Amazon provides.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mrkramer 4y ago

It was bound to happen; monopoly is an emergent property of capitalism and the end goal of any for-profit corporation.