4 ms·

At some point, AirBnB will let hosts assign cleanup fees that are specified upfront and these will end up being deterrents. Most hotels seem to ask for a $150-3

At some point, AirBnB will let hosts assign cleanup fees that are specified upfront and these will end up being deterrents. Most hotels seem to ask for a $150-300 cleaning fee for smoking in the room and I'm guessing they're able to make it stick because I just don't smell tobacco smoke anymore.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
Fewer people smoke, and fewer people have a problem with stepping outside to smoke nowadays. Payment card networks specifically forbid merchants from taking payment for damages that the customer has not specifically agreed to pay (via chip or tap to pay), so any chargeback is easily lost by the hotel. Technically, the smoking fee can be pursued in court, but no hotel is going through the effort of proving it, and even if they could, the legal fees would be huge. Smoking fees are mostly just a deterrent, and the real consequence is you get put on a “do not rent” list at the hotel. I am waiting for Hilton/Hyatt/Marriott/IHG/choice/Wyndham to roll out company wide do not rent lists. They might not have much motivation, however, since they just franchise hotel brands and the hotel owners are the ones that pay for all the damage.
- 1123581321 4y ago
  Hotels get either a deposit or pre-auth on your credit card and have you sign an agreement that you're on the hook for damages. Yes, they are probably not going to pursue you in excess of the pre-auth, but they're largely covered in typical cases, and you won't win a chargeback if you damaged a room or even the linen. Also, there are already shared DNR lists hotels use for egregious misbehavior. Within hotel chains, there are more extensive lists.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I know from personal experience the hotel will lose the chargeback. The message from the opposing bank will be something like “merchant agreements does not cover damages” or something. Basically, unless the customer agreed to pay a specific number, and you have proof of it, I would not expect to win the chargeback. The security deposit pre auth at check serves more of a credit check purpose. Generally, if you are getting too many problem customers, you increase the security deposit because you are betting most problem causers will have fewer funds available at any given time. A couple hundred dollars is not going to cover any real damage costs. The other problem is proving the damage was caused by the guest, as you are not typically going over all the existing damage in a room prior to giving the guest a key. The way to get people to pay, however, was to threaten to go to small claims court, and most people will choose to avoid that hassle and simply pay. I have never seen an official shared DNR list by any of the major hotel brands shared with individual hotel owners. If an owner/management company has multiple hotels, then I have seen shared lists.
    - 1123581321 4y ago
      Sorry, yes, you're right about the DNR. The rest, I like your comment and don't doubt your personal experience, but we will have to disagree on the typical experience. Hotels do win chargebacks for damages and get most people to go along with them. Those contracts aren't toothless and you've probably noticed communication about responsibility for damages and required signatures has improved over the last couple decades. At the same time, they're of course good at waiving accidents, small expenses if requested, etc. The room renter has always been responsible for damage. The room in most chains is checked between stays and, outside of unusual scenarios, it's customary for the guest to let the front desk know about existing problems as soon as possible to avoid assuming some responsibility.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        The customer might be responsible, but their credit cards’ bank is going to tell the hotel to pound sand. They want clear proof of the customers’ willingness to engage in that specific transaction, including the amount, and an agreement stating customer is liable for unspecified damages is not sufficient. Some hotel guests will not contest it, but I bet if they did, they would easily win the chargeback. How is the hotel even going to prove that smoking occurred in the room and by that guest? Ability to collect payment is the problem, even if you have a binding contract with a customer. > The room in most chains is checked between stays and, outside of unusual scenarios, it's customary for the guest to let the front desk know about existing problems as soon as possible to avoid assuming some responsibility. Ideally, and it might work in small claims court to state the hotel guest is responsible because they did not report the existing damage at check in. But the customer’s credit card bank is not going to care, and their burden of proof is pretty high. And as I wrote earlier, they can always just say “our merchant agreement prohibits charges for damage and non sales related transactions”.
        1123581321 4y ago
        It goes back to the contract making the guest signing the paperwork, and handing over the credit card, responsible for damage, as well as managing evidence of details of the stay. The clear proof of that willingness is readily supplied by the hotel which has the paperwork. The verbal and visual presentation walkthrough of the paperwork creates expectations which reduce chargeback rates, but documentation those processes also accompany the chargeback documentation to build a case for the charge being previously agreed. Hotels don't have a "pound sound" relationship with banks, issuers and merchant accounts, but rather work together to come up with policies and paperwork that are more clear to customers so work better for everyone. Again, I understand that you have personally been successful with some chargebacks.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

Fewer people smoke, and fewer people have a problem with stepping outside to smoke nowadays. Payment card networks specifically forbid merchants from taking payment for damages that the customer has not specifically agreed to pay (via chip or tap to pay), so any chargeback is easily lost by the hotel. Technically, the smoking fee can be pursued in court, but no hotel is going through the effort of proving it, and even if they could, the legal fees would be huge. Smoking fees are mostly just a deterrent, and the real consequence is you get put on a “do not rent” list at the hotel. I am waiting for Hilton/Hyatt/Marriott/IHG/choice/Wyndham to roll out company wide do not rent lists. They might not have much motivation, however, since they just franchise hotel brands and the hotel owners are the ones that pay for all the damage.

1123581321 4y ago
Hotels get either a deposit or pre-auth on your credit card and have you sign an agreement that you're on the hook for damages. Yes, they are probably not going to pursue you in excess of the pre-auth, but they're largely covered in typical cases, and you won't win a chargeback if you damaged a room or even the linen. Also, there are already shared DNR lists hotels use for egregious misbehavior. Within hotel chains, there are more extensive lists.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I know from personal experience the hotel will lose the chargeback. The message from the opposing bank will be something like “merchant agreements does not cover damages” or something. Basically, unless the customer agreed to pay a specific number, and you have proof of it, I would not expect to win the chargeback. The security deposit pre auth at check serves more of a credit check purpose. Generally, if you are getting too many problem customers, you increase the security deposit because you are betting most problem causers will have fewer funds available at any given time. A couple hundred dollars is not going to cover any real damage costs. The other problem is proving the damage was caused by the guest, as you are not typically going over all the existing damage in a room prior to giving the guest a key. The way to get people to pay, however, was to threaten to go to small claims court, and most people will choose to avoid that hassle and simply pay. I have never seen an official shared DNR list by any of the major hotel brands shared with individual hotel owners. If an owner/management company has multiple hotels, then I have seen shared lists.
  - 1123581321 4y ago
    Sorry, yes, you're right about the DNR. The rest, I like your comment and don't doubt your personal experience, but we will have to disagree on the typical experience. Hotels do win chargebacks for damages and get most people to go along with them. Those contracts aren't toothless and you've probably noticed communication about responsibility for damages and required signatures has improved over the last couple decades. At the same time, they're of course good at waiving accidents, small expenses if requested, etc. The room renter has always been responsible for damage. The room in most chains is checked between stays and, outside of unusual scenarios, it's customary for the guest to let the front desk know about existing problems as soon as possible to avoid assuming some responsibility.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      The customer might be responsible, but their credit cards’ bank is going to tell the hotel to pound sand. They want clear proof of the customers’ willingness to engage in that specific transaction, including the amount, and an agreement stating customer is liable for unspecified damages is not sufficient. Some hotel guests will not contest it, but I bet if they did, they would easily win the chargeback. How is the hotel even going to prove that smoking occurred in the room and by that guest? Ability to collect payment is the problem, even if you have a binding contract with a customer. > The room in most chains is checked between stays and, outside of unusual scenarios, it's customary for the guest to let the front desk know about existing problems as soon as possible to avoid assuming some responsibility. Ideally, and it might work in small claims court to state the hotel guest is responsible because they did not report the existing damage at check in. But the customer’s credit card bank is not going to care, and their burden of proof is pretty high. And as I wrote earlier, they can always just say “our merchant agreement prohibits charges for damage and non sales related transactions”.
      - 1123581321 4y ago
        It goes back to the contract making the guest signing the paperwork, and handing over the credit card, responsible for damage, as well as managing evidence of details of the stay. The clear proof of that willingness is readily supplied by the hotel which has the paperwork. The verbal and visual presentation walkthrough of the paperwork creates expectations which reduce chargeback rates, but documentation those processes also accompany the chargeback documentation to build a case for the charge being previously agreed. Hotels don't have a "pound sound" relationship with banks, issuers and merchant accounts, but rather work together to come up with policies and paperwork that are more clear to customers so work better for everyone. Again, I understand that you have personally been successful with some chargebacks.