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A security researcher wrote an article while back and it was shocking to see how much data TikTok was collecting: - biometrics - what words are mentioned in

• Krasnol 4y ago
  It could become hard to argument since the rest of the US digital industry is collecting the same data. So why prevent it with one while allowing it with others?
• chii 4y ago
  would you not make the same argument for google?
  • BobbyJo 4y ago
    Doesn't Google not operate in China for just this reason?
  • crmd 4y ago
    Google is banned in China
  • asimpletune 4y ago
    If you’re china then absolutely
  • runjake 4y ago
    Yes, but Google is on our, well "my" side. I would expect an "adversary" nationstate, like China, to respond with similar alarm.
    • SkyMarshal 4y ago
      China has, they’ve banned most Western social media.
      • hunglee2 4y ago
        not quite true, most Western social media companies withdraw from China market in order not be subject to govt request for information
    • salt-thrower 4y ago
      Google is on nobody’s “side” but their own. They’re an amoral bureaucracy trying to make money. Nothing more or less.
      • runjake 4y ago
        Hence my use of quotes.
    • Sebb767 4y ago
      Depends on what you do. As long as you don't plan on visiting China, them knowing your sexual orientation, whether you do drugs is or where you were is pretty irrelevant, while it might be quite interesting for you government (and therefore Google, if you're in the US).
      • andreilys 4y ago
        Except when it does matter, say for example you become a politican or work in a corporation that has valuable IP. All of the sudden, private details about you can be weaponized and used as blackmail in order to carry out the will of a state actor. It really doesn't take much creativity to think about how this information can be weaponized against you.
        • Sebb767 4y ago
          That's why I said > Depends on what you do. It's not great if a foreign intelligence has data on you, but depending on your threat scenario, it _might_ be better than your government having it.
  • aurelius83 4y ago
    Is Google an American company?
    • itake 4y ago
      How many of their employees in critical roles are not American citizens?
    • SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      I swear this is a trick question... but they are headquartered in America, yes.
    • earth_walker 4y ago
      I could have sworn they were Irish just a few years ago...
  • dspillett 4y ago
    Many would, yes. But Google can use the “but we are an American company, so you are threatening to harm American industry” argument and can afford to pay for a large army of lobbyists to push that agenda if America tries to reign them in.
  • kube-system 4y ago
    The legal environment is wildly different. Google doesn’t have an internal board of government officials controlling it. All large software companies in China do. Google doesn’t operate in China for this reason. Apple divested their cloud operations to the Guizhou government for this reason. In the US is it normal and routine for corporations to dispute government demands. In China, If you don’t play ball with the party, your company ceases to exist and you are put behind the great firewall.
    • theplumber 4y ago
      >> In the US is it normal and routine for corporations to dispute government demands. But we already know that's just somescreen and the U.S gov/NSA gets the data. Poor Snowden ruined his life for almost nothing.
      • kube-system 4y ago
        The difference is that there is a non-zero amount of friction in the US. We also know that many companies in the US say “no” and have the legal ability to do it. For example, when the FBI asked Apple to unlock a phone for them, they said no, and they never did. In China, your company doesn’t say “no” because the CCP members forcibly installed on your company’s board always vote “yes”. And in fact, the CCP holds the iCloud keys for all Chinese iCloud users. (As well as the entire data center)
        • AlexandrB 4y ago
          > The difference is that there is a non-zero amount of friction in the US. This kind of statement should always end with "for now". Data lives forever, laws change. Just take a look at Roe v. Wade and how formerly benign data now has potential legal implications for users.
          • orangepurple 4y ago
            Thankfully we have a statute of limitations for many legal matters
• xbar 4y ago
  TikTok is a spectacular example of both human- and democracy-hacking. It's like an authoritarian regime saw facebook in 2012 and said, "hold my beverage of choice."
  • mistrial9 4y ago
    my intellectual colleagues loudly decried Facebook on Day One; Facebook itself is the original darkness here. ill winds blow
  • rjzzleep 4y ago
    > authoritarian regime saw facebook in 2012 and said What a weird statement. Facebook has been taking all of that data for a long time. Some of the protections in Android and iOS were specifically added to inhibit Facebook from recording the surroundings in the background. TikTok just does more of the same partly because they just have more audio and video data to work with. Remember how Uber showed how cool they can track hookup dates? All of that is potentially blackmail-able information. Are you somehow insinuating that Facebook is somehow okay because they are in a "democratic" country?
    • geerlingguy 4y ago
      I think the comment is insinuating that any country that wants deep personal data on a huge subset of the population should make sure it has a popular social network, so its citizens (and in some cases, citizens from around the world) willingly sit there inputting any and every detail about their lives and relationships into the database.
    • nhinck 4y ago
      That's not the insinuation at all
    • lucakiebel 4y ago
      I think the „2012“ comes from the notion that Facebook was somehow more widely used in the past. I also think it’s the case from time to time since my family &friends don‘t use FB, but they have quadrupled their DAUs since 2012
• aaomidi 4y ago
  And something it does that nearly nothing else does (twitter has started, but in a less shitty way). The share links are unique per user, not unique per content. This gives them full graph of relationships building technology.
  • jodrellblank 4y ago
    Stackoverflow does this; your shares are tagged with your user id so they can be tracked around the web.
• guessbest 4y ago
  It was a politically untenable situation to ban data collecting software applications as the courts overruled the federal decision. >After Trump proposed to ban TikTok in the U.S on July 31, 2020, security researchers expressed their concern about limitations of freedom. In one article, PCMag quoted Jennifer Granick of the American Civil Liberties Union Surveillance and Cybersecurity Counsel who said that "banning an app that millions of Americans use to communicate with each other is a danger to free expression and is technologically impractical." > On 23 September 2020, TikTok filed a request for a preliminary injunction to prevent the app from being banned by the Trump administration.[62] This request was filed with the District Court for the District of Columbia. Just a week prior, a different preliminary injunction from WeChat users filed with the United States District Court for the Northern District of California was approved by Magistrate Judge Laurel Beeler.[63] > The preliminary injunction was approved by Judge Carl J. Nichols on September 27 > The following June, new president Joe Biden signed an executive order revoking the Trump administration ban on TikTok https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_controversy#Biden_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_co...
  • bombcar 4y ago
    And today we hear: FCC Commissioner Calls for Apple and Google to Ban TikTok Over 'Surreptitious' Data Practices https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31921200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31921200
    • guessbest 4y ago
      Unfortunately regulating tech companies is politically untenable since he was nominated by the previous administration. They will replace him with someone who will toe the line. > Commissioner Carr was nominated to the FCC by President Trump and confirmed unanimously by the United States Senate. https://www.fcc.gov/about/leadership/brendan-carr https://www.fcc.gov/about/leadership/brendan-carr > His term runs from July 1, 2018 to June 30, 2023. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Carr_(lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Carr_(lawyer)
      • 4y ago
• hammock 4y ago
  Is this collection different from, say, Meta? I believe they collect all the same information via Instagram. And before someone says Meta is an American company, not controlled by an adversary, let me recall that it’s controlled by Zuckerberg who spent $419 million to influence US election administration in a seemingly partisan way (“democracy hacking” as another commenter said). Meta may not be YOUR adversary, but that fact is not necessarily true of all (or even most) Americans
  • sebast_bake 4y ago
    No, it’s not different. That’s why Meta is blocked in the PRC. The west should do the same for TikTok.
  • rglullis 4y ago
    Do you think that any of it is acceptable?
    • eric__cartman 4y ago
      It should be unacceptable regardless of country of origin.
      • rglullis 4y ago
        I agree. But until then, what do you think the people should do?
        • CyanBird 4y ago
          Or rather, which system is more actionable for the local public, the answer to that is ofc the US, if you can't even get your own country to not spy on its citizens either through corporate espionage or through direct gov espionage, what hope do you hold of tangling with foreign countries to coerce them to also not spy? If anything it seems hypocrite to do that!
          • 4y ago
• sAbakumoff 4y ago
  I think that people like are actually glad that TikTok and others collect your data because it makes you feel much more important and needed than you really are!
• wongarsu 4y ago
  Apart from biometrics all of these are things you would more or less expect them to collect. Words mentioned in the video and the videos popularity are important for the recommendation algorithm, and the censorship of "age inappropriate content". Location data similarly goes into the recommendation algo. Any social app asks for contacts nowadays (as much as I despise it). The insidious thing is how the data is used. For example knowing the exact content of each video allows them to filter certain topics and promote others. Knowing your location allows them to use this geopolitically (showing content about the Ukraine war in some places, but not in others). Whether intentional or unintentional, their recommendation engine infers demographic information. I'm pretty sure TikTok thought for a while that I was gay; videos with reasonably accurate predictions like "if this is recommended to you, you are a male between 25 and 30 who is introverted. You like to start projects but never finish them" were a trend for a while. All of this gives TikTok and by extension China a great tool to influence opinions and moods in a finely targeted way. Take all the scandals about what Facebook experimented with, and how targeted ads influenced elections and votes, and give that power to one party with no oversight. That's TikTok.
• ProAm 4y ago
  > I just can't believe that a powerful country like America is letting a not-so-friendly military/civilian complex infiltrate it for somewhat unknown purpose This is 100% why their US data is now stored in Oracle cloud storage. So the US can mine it too now for free. [1] [H] https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/17/tiktok-oracle-us-traffic-china-access/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/17/tiktok-oracle-us-traffic-c...
• juanani 4y ago
• lizardactivist 4y ago
  It's TikTok. Funny jokes and dance videos. And they're collecting no more than American IT companies are doing. "I just can't believe that a powerful country like America is letting a not-so-friendly military/civilian complex infiltrate it for somewhat unknown purpose." Are you for real? The one country that fits the description of not-so-friendly military-complex is the U.S. itself. A more pressing problem and question is that despite everything we learned from the CIA and NSA leaks, American companies and their software is inside every country, government, business and IT infrastructure, and is collecting vast amounts of sensitive data still to this day. All while people like you are drawing attention to TikTok.
  • vanillax 4y ago
    Exactly. Plus the product is free. What do you expect? Oh no im gonna get targeted for ads on another site because of tiktok. What an uproar!
  • mean_pigeon 4y ago
    This comment makes it pretty clear you don't use tiktok or have a very clear understanding of its content. A huge portion of content is political, and especially divisive. People are constantly targeted with content that either reinforces or insults their more extreme political beliefs. This is exactly how personal data is being used against individuals - to target divisive political content and maximize political angst. It's clearly working.
    • posterboy 4y ago
      Yah nuh, it's not as if youtube don't do the same. More to the point, ycombinator is infamous for being a neoliberal silicon valley poster child. Nobody forced me to come here, or to tik tok
    • hellomyguys 4y ago
      You're literally describing every major user generated content platform.
  • fortuna86 4y ago
• mariodiana 4y ago
  I'm going to guess that the purpose is to use the data to eventually build life-like, AI-generated social media influencers. The data will show what kind of faces, voices, inflections, word choice, etc. is most influential. I don't think the technology is quite there yet, but very soon it will be possible, with a little hand tweaking, to fake "cool" people — video bots. It will be used as a psy-op.
  • Arrath 4y ago
    Reminds me of the AI popstar/persona in Deus Ex 2.
  • posterboy 4y ago
    > I'm going to guess that the purpose is to use the data to eventually build life-like, AI-generated social media influencers. You think? > very soon it will be possible, with a little hand tweaking, to fake "cool" people If your worst thread is being out-done by a bot in the ... what domain is "cool" in. And whom are you quoting from? PS: What can I say, you got my goat. Vain people are very vulnerable in it (think that's the definition of "vain", but I still want to know what "it" is)
  • lattalayta 4y ago
    Already starting to happen! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huqNdRj16FQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huqNdRj16FQ
    • mariodiana 4y ago
      Yes. I wasn't aware of that, so thank you. The Uncanny Valley is still there — right now. That won't last forever though.
• lloydatkinson 4y ago
  Meanwhile last time I brought this up typical HN contrarians denied it!
• gonzo41 4y ago
  I look forward to the blazing success of "Just say no" to tick tok campaigns. Because people are so good with self control these days.
• jasonlotito 4y ago
  biometrics: Anything involving face scanning for any filter based stuff needs access to biometric data words mentioned in the video: creating captions location data: helping to recommend people near you, also ability to enforce laws based on regions your contacts: this is something you give them permission to access. This is so you can connect with your friends who also setup TikToks. You do not have opt into this. These are just the things I thought off the top of my head. Does this mean China can't influence the populace? No. But the previous administration didn't think that external influence into elections was an issue. And the majority of Americans didn't seem to care, either. So you have at least one party that generally doesn't care. And don't pretend that FB doesn't matter. FB might be American, but it doesn't limit itself to only working with American companies.
  • omniglottal 4y ago
    Having an ostensibly valid use does not preclude also having nefarious uses. A majority with apathy should not circumvent the efforts of those who do care.
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• bogomipz 4y ago
  Might you or someone else have a link to that article?
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• favourable 4y ago
  iOS' App Store has a good breakdown of what's collected too. It's sort of like a nutritional label of what's collected. It's why I won't install this app. It's a data grab by TikTok to turn personal info into gold ingots. One thing I do though, since missing out on TikTok bothers me, is to watch YouTube clips of TikTok videos which have been downloaded and shared on YT. Not that YT is better in terms on privacy, but it's better than having a Chinese malware app on your phone.
• dannyphantom 4y ago
  I recently saw that TikTok is moving all US traffic to Oracle servers [0] as to mitigate any potential claims of the app being a threat. Would appreciate anyone expanding on the implications. [0]: https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/17/tiktok-oracle-us-traffic-china-access/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/17/tiktok-oracle-us-traffic-c... My view of TikTok isn't so much that it's purpose is to be used as an threat; but rather a way to create an (insanely) lucrative e-commerce market in the same what it's being used in China. [1] [1]: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-tech/Move-over-Alibaba-here-comes-TikTok-s-live-shopping https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-tech/Move-over-Alibab...
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• ranger_danger 4y ago
  > I just can't believe that a powerful country like America is letting a not-so-friendly military/civilian complex infiltrate it for somewhat unknown purpose. You mean the same country that also just overturned Roe v Wade AND Miranda rights ?
• winternett 4y ago
  Twitter is doing exactly the same things.. So is Instagram, Google, Microsoft, etc... It's no different for many other social apps. Even user accounts are often linked to individuals that harvest and scape data from most of these platforms routinely. I'm not saying that TikTok isn't nefariously aligned with political agendas, but we've really got to ask ourselves at this point just what exactly ALL of these social app platforms are doing. They make so much money and share so little with the creators on them which of course creates a windfall of funding for them to integrate complex tracking and manipulation into the platforms year over year. Right now, the only reason why these sites are beginning to come under scrutiny is because people who are considered "High value assets" (i.e. congress people and government leadership) are realizing that these apps, and the phones that run them exist within their homes now, listening to vital conversations that these people have.... How? Because their children use the apps, even if their parents don't. There is a mesh network everywhere now, based on the devices we've purchased that provides intel to anyone who knows how it works and it's gone widely ignored for years... Phones with lidar that can scan rooms for occupants, multiple pictures and selfies saved under real names of individuals, voice recordings galore, etc... All content provided by children and adults alike in the quest for social media popularity. If we're worried about just TikTok weaponizing this data, we're worried about water on a duck's back. The types of information that can be collected by apps now has completely crossed the line in terms of privacy. The biggest offense is that personal devices (the only ones we CAN purchase any more, and the devices we're supposed to be owners of) all allow this data to be gathered and shared with apps, not that apps are harvesting the data. Two factor authentication alone often forces users of services (considered vital to their work) to share their phone numbers with private companies, and from there it's sold to others, and used to track users across the web. Now private companies collect more data on individuals than the US government, and it can be easily accessed to determine anything from credit and insurance-worthiness for individuals to being used in deepfake content (potentially by BOTH companies and by individual users on platforms) all without our knowledge, and with our unwitting consent -- buried deep into EULA agreements everywhere. Congress has dropped the ball, too busy being enthralled into public theatre, and many congresspeople actually being invested into many of these tech companies profit-wise themselves. It's a tragic game of "shoot yourself in the foot" because most of the profiteers from the data mining game never realize the damage they do until they find out their own children become victims of it. It's not really about TikTok in my opinion, it's about get rich schemes and all of the corrupt Ponzi schemes we keep fostering and permitting to run freely in this country. It's been going on forever, and that's the thing undermining America most, our domestic impulse to both salute and coddle those that make profit without accountability or morality.
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• NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
  >I just can't believe that a powerful country like America is letting a not-so-friendly military/civilian complex infiltrate it for somewhat unknown purpose. Because it provides a very convenient back door for our three letter agencies? Speculation, but the data that True the Vote was able to simply purchase on the open market legally was pretty shocking in its detail. What's to prevent our government from doing that? They haven't respected the 4th amendment for decades.
• sakutea 4y ago
  maybe you need to ask the President of US why.
  • leaflets2 4y ago
    TikTok is a Chinese company not a US company
• sakutea 4y ago
  they only care about money
• kwatsonafter 4y ago
  From an IR realist perspective this doesn't matter so much; wars aren't fought between the people of nations-- they're fought between the armies of different nations. Historically the financial class doesn't really care so much about things like, "people's expectation of privacy" and the like (...) I'm one of the few people that studies this that would kind of say, "who cares?" I state this rhetorically.
• powerapple 4y ago
  - biometrics video analysis - words are mentioned in the video video content analysis ^^^^ these are for videos uploaded, which I do not upload any - wifi and location probably user modeling for recommendation for Location I always say NO - contacts I always say NO to any app Basically it collects very little information from me. I did register an account though, otherwise it wouldn't collect any