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Yes, OP also misses the fact that Visa and MC can gate-keep legal activities as well. Selling smoking accessories is legal under US law, but good luck getting a

Yes, OP also misses the fact that Visa and MC can gate-keep legal activities as well. Selling smoking accessories is legal under US law, but good luck getting a payment processor that'll let you sell those goods online. You can get a high risk processor, but they hold your funds for longer, charge a higher rate, and you can lose processing ability at any time. If you're established, Visa and MC will make exceptions, but who decided to make Visa and MC the deciders on what people can and cannot sell. That's what US laws are for. In my opinion, this is the only use case for crypto that I can see playing out, decentralized payments. Sure fees maybe higher, but at least a private company can't restrict what you can sell online while whitelisting some competitors.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
> Sure fees maybe higher, but at least a private company can't restrict what you can sell online while whitelisting some competitors. Until exchanges turn around and do the same thing as Visa/Mastercard once they have enough market share...and they aren't subject to anywhere near as many regulations.
- theturtletalks 4y ago
  Sure that could happen, but I'd hope there's enough competition in crypto payment processing that keeps them honest. Visa and MC have too big of a strong hold right now.
tiffanyh 4y ago
> OP also misses the fact that Visa and MC can gate-keep legal activities as well. Selling smoking accessories is legal under US law, but good luck getting a payment processor that'll let you sell those goods online Visa & MC are not processors.
- theturtletalks 4y ago
  Yes, but Stripe or Paypal adhere to their rules. Visa and MC are the reason those processors don't allow high risk businesses. For example, OnlyFans last year nearly banned adult content because their processor was going to drop them. Visa/MC were blamed for that, but they ended up making an exception. If you go out to build an OnlyFans alternative, you won't get a processor.
  - tiffanyh 4y ago
    So are you suggesting Visa/MC shouldn’t comply with laws & regulation? Visa/MC aren’t the “bad guys” here. They are just trying to adhere to the required laws & regulations impose on them. EDIT: I can’t reply to your comment below, so I’m going to reply here. > If selling adult services or goods is "illegal," then the US law should codify it, not leave it up Visa/MC/processors to decide. This is where I think you’re confusing matters. Visa/MC aren’t “deciding”. They are simply asking a merchant to prove if unknown activity is NOT illegal. If the merchant can’t prove its not illegal, then correct - that merchant can’t continue to transact. But they aren’t deciding. And that’s the big difference. EDIT2: > Now, it’s within Visa and MC’s prerogative to operate how they see fit. A government-backed or decentralized network would bring some needed competition. The merchant doesn’t have to accept those card networks. They could accept cash, check, ACH, bitcoin, bank transfer, PayPal, WePay, Zelle, etc.
    - digisign 4y ago
      "Can't prove a negative." Law is too vague and extensive to work this way.
    - theturtletalks 4y ago
      >> So are you suggesting Visa/MC shouldn’t comply with laws & regulation? Of course Visa/MC should stop payments for illegal activities, but they go after legal activities as well. That's the issue. If selling adult services or goods is "illegal," then the US law should codify it, not leave it up Visa/MC/processors to decide. And it Visa/MC straight up banned these sort of payments, it wouldn't be an issue, but they play favoritism for some companies and ban others out right. Not to mention, many legal businesses lose payment processing ability without even a reason. They claim that even giving a reason will give violators too much information about their internal security. The EU is actually building their own payment system to combat this [0] and I really think the US should as well. 0. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directive-eu-2015-2366_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directi...
    - theturtletalks 4y ago
      >> This is where I think you’re confusing matters. Visa/MC aren’t “deciding”. They are simply asking a merchant to prove if unknown activity is NOT illegal. This is the fundamental difference. Why is the burden of proof on the merchant of wrongdoing? And in reality, payment processors don’t ask for proof, they ban without recourse. Just google getting banned on PayPal and you’ll see thousands of merchants selling legal non-adult goods getting banned. Now, it’s within Visa and MC’s prerogative to operate how they see fit. A government-backed or decentralized network would bring some needed competition.
atlasunshrugged 4y ago
Why hasn't crypto made inroads into this world yet? Porn is historically an early adopting industry (online payments, thumbnail play w/scroll, VR, etc.) and this seems like a theoretically optimal use case where someone would desire some level of anonymity or at least some obfuscation as to their identity
- theturtletalks 4y ago
  I was very excited about Solana Pay[0] when it dropped last year, but it doesn't seem to have gotten much traction. 0. https://solanapay.com/ https://solanapay.com/
  - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
    Interesting, will they have a TOS similar to Coinbase Commerce (which bans porn as a business category) https://commerce.coinbase.com/legal/terms-of-service/ https://commerce.coinbase.com/legal/terms-of-service/
    - theturtletalks 4y ago
      Hmmmm, maybe because both of them allow people to pay with credit card and send crypto. True decentralized payments would be crypto to crypto but that would force users to hold that crypto in a wallet.
  - TimJRobinson 4y ago
    Solana still regularly goes down because it has little rate limiting or DDoS protection. Until that is fixed it's unlikely many will adopt it for payments.
- redox99 4y ago
  > Why hasn't crypto made inroads into this world yet? Why do you assume it hasn't? If I try to purchase premium on PornHub[1], it ONLY shows cryptocurrency as an option, and says: "Unfortunately we are unable to accept credit cards at this moment" (Maybe in other regions it's different) And I'm sure almost all porn websites accept crypto. Also 4chan pass[2], can ONLY be purchased with crypto as well. [1] Not linked in case it violates HN guidelines [2] https://www.4channel.org/pass https://www.4channel.org/pass

KennyBlanken 4y ago

> Sure fees maybe higher, but at least a private company can't restrict what you can sell online while whitelisting some competitors. Until exchanges turn around and do the same thing as Visa/Mastercard once they have enough market share...and they aren't subject to anywhere near as many regulations.

theturtletalks 4y ago
Sure that could happen, but I'd hope there's enough competition in crypto payment processing that keeps them honest. Visa and MC have too big of a strong hold right now.

tiffanyh 4y ago

> OP also misses the fact that Visa and MC can gate-keep legal activities as well. Selling smoking accessories is legal under US law, but good luck getting a payment processor that'll let you sell those goods online Visa & MC are not processors.

theturtletalks 4y ago
Yes, but Stripe or Paypal adhere to their rules. Visa and MC are the reason those processors don't allow high risk businesses. For example, OnlyFans last year nearly banned adult content because their processor was going to drop them. Visa/MC were blamed for that, but they ended up making an exception. If you go out to build an OnlyFans alternative, you won't get a processor.
- tiffanyh 4y ago
  So are you suggesting Visa/MC shouldn’t comply with laws & regulation? Visa/MC aren’t the “bad guys” here. They are just trying to adhere to the required laws & regulations impose on them. EDIT: I can’t reply to your comment below, so I’m going to reply here. > If selling adult services or goods is "illegal," then the US law should codify it, not leave it up Visa/MC/processors to decide. This is where I think you’re confusing matters. Visa/MC aren’t “deciding”. They are simply asking a merchant to prove if unknown activity is NOT illegal. If the merchant can’t prove its not illegal, then correct - that merchant can’t continue to transact. But they aren’t deciding. And that’s the big difference. EDIT2: > Now, it’s within Visa and MC’s prerogative to operate how they see fit. A government-backed or decentralized network would bring some needed competition. The merchant doesn’t have to accept those card networks. They could accept cash, check, ACH, bitcoin, bank transfer, PayPal, WePay, Zelle, etc.
  - digisign 4y ago
    "Can't prove a negative." Law is too vague and extensive to work this way.
  - theturtletalks 4y ago
    >> So are you suggesting Visa/MC shouldn’t comply with laws & regulation? Of course Visa/MC should stop payments for illegal activities, but they go after legal activities as well. That's the issue. If selling adult services or goods is "illegal," then the US law should codify it, not leave it up Visa/MC/processors to decide. And it Visa/MC straight up banned these sort of payments, it wouldn't be an issue, but they play favoritism for some companies and ban others out right. Not to mention, many legal businesses lose payment processing ability without even a reason. They claim that even giving a reason will give violators too much information about their internal security. The EU is actually building their own payment system to combat this [0] and I really think the US should as well. 0. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directive-eu-2015-2366_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directi...
  - theturtletalks 4y ago
    >> This is where I think you’re confusing matters. Visa/MC aren’t “deciding”. They are simply asking a merchant to prove if unknown activity is NOT illegal. This is the fundamental difference. Why is the burden of proof on the merchant of wrongdoing? And in reality, payment processors don’t ask for proof, they ban without recourse. Just google getting banned on PayPal and you’ll see thousands of merchants selling legal non-adult goods getting banned. Now, it’s within Visa and MC’s prerogative to operate how they see fit. A government-backed or decentralized network would bring some needed competition.

atlasunshrugged 4y ago

Why hasn't crypto made inroads into this world yet? Porn is historically an early adopting industry (online payments, thumbnail play w/scroll, VR, etc.) and this seems like a theoretically optimal use case where someone would desire some level of anonymity or at least some obfuscation as to their identity

theturtletalks 4y ago
I was very excited about Solana Pay[0] when it dropped last year, but it doesn't seem to have gotten much traction. 0. https://solanapay.com/ https://solanapay.com/
- atlasunshrugged 4y ago
  Interesting, will they have a TOS similar to Coinbase Commerce (which bans porn as a business category) https://commerce.coinbase.com/legal/terms-of-service/ https://commerce.coinbase.com/legal/terms-of-service/
  - theturtletalks 4y ago
    Hmmmm, maybe because both of them allow people to pay with credit card and send crypto. True decentralized payments would be crypto to crypto but that would force users to hold that crypto in a wallet.
- TimJRobinson 4y ago
  Solana still regularly goes down because it has little rate limiting or DDoS protection. Until that is fixed it's unlikely many will adopt it for payments.
redox99 4y ago
> Why hasn't crypto made inroads into this world yet? Why do you assume it hasn't? If I try to purchase premium on PornHub[1], it ONLY shows cryptocurrency as an option, and says: "Unfortunately we are unable to accept credit cards at this moment" (Maybe in other regions it's different) And I'm sure almost all porn websites accept crypto. Also 4chan pass[2], can ONLY be purchased with crypto as well. [1] Not linked in case it violates HN guidelines [2] https://www.4channel.org/pass https://www.4channel.org/pass