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For someone who hates the Lord of the Rings, that's surprisingly well researched. And yet, a lot of his reasoning doesn't make sense. Because population levels

by mcv 4y ago

For someone who hates the Lord of the Rings, that's surprisingly well researched. And yet, a lot of his reasoning doesn't make sense. Because population levels in Middle Earth are far lower than in 18th century England, labour costs should be high? Population levels in Middle Earth strike me as closer to those of Siberia or the eastern European steppe (perhaps with the Ural in the role of the Misty Mountains?) than to those of western Europe. And I think everybody agrees that Siberia was never going to be a good spot for the industrial revolution to start. To have high labour costs, you need high productivity; you need industry. Most of the industry in Middle Earth seems to be involved in making weapons and jewelry, and not much else. To have high inventiveness, you need a lot of people. I suppose the industrial revolution could start in England because it was both fairly densely populated, but also highly productive. Perhaps because they had the trade network to sell their goods all over the world? There doesn't seem to be much trade in Middle Earth. There barely are any cities! I mean, Gondor seems to be by far the largest and richest country, and what cities do they have beyond Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and Erech? The rest of Middle Earth seems to be almost completely empty. The various travelling groups would frequently walk for days without encountering any farms or villages. I don't know why Middle Earth is so empty, but given that it is, it seems like a very unlikely place for the industrial revolution to take place.

matkoniecz 4y ago
> I don't know why Middle Earth is so empty Literal force of evil repeatedly maliciously sabotaging things or waging warfare has not helped. (also, on different level - it was fitting aesthetics wanted by Tolkien, partially reaction to industrial and heavily populated UK - see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_o... )
jltsiren 4y ago
The parts of Middle-earth we see in the books are empty, because Sauron has been fighting a war against the Numenoreans and their allies for 2000 years. He has also been winning the war. Northern Eriador, roughly the area between Shire and Rivendell, used to be Arnor. The northern counterpart to Gondor was first weakened in civil wars and then destroyed by the armies of the Witch King. People don't return to the area, because they believe the ruins of the cities are haunted. The Misty Mountains are infested with orcs. Few people live near the mountains, except in Dunland in the south. Anduin runs between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood. Few people are willing to live near them. Particularly because Sauron built his fortress in the southern Mirkwood and spent most of the last 2000 years there. Further south, the lands west of the river are near Lorien and Fangorn, and people are afraid of the beings living in those forests. On the eastern side, the lands between Mirkwood and Mordor are either barren or were ruined in the battles at the end of the Second Age. Osgiliath, Minas Anor/Tirith, and Minas Ithil/Morgul used to be three great cities of Gondor. However, Minas Ithil was lost and Osgiliath abandoned long ago. At the end of the Third Age, most of the population of Gondor lives in the coastal areas protected by the White Mountains and Minas Tirith. Pelargir is a major port near the mouth of Anduin, and Dol Amroth is another major city. We know little of the lands to the east and to the south, except that they were capable of sending large armies against Gondor.

by mcv 4y ago

matkoniecz 4y ago

> I don't know why Middle Earth is so empty Literal force of evil repeatedly maliciously sabotaging things or waging warfare has not helped. (also, on different level - it was fitting aesthetics wanted by Tolkien, partially reaction to industrial and heavily populated UK - see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_o... )

jltsiren 4y ago

The parts of Middle-earth we see in the books are empty, because Sauron has been fighting a war against the Numenoreans and their allies for 2000 years. He has also been winning the war. Northern Eriador, roughly the area between Shire and Rivendell, used to be Arnor. The northern counterpart to Gondor was first weakened in civil wars and then destroyed by the armies of the Witch King. People don't return to the area, because they believe the ruins of the cities are haunted. The Misty Mountains are infested with orcs. Few people live near the mountains, except in Dunland in the south. Anduin runs between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood. Few people are willing to live near them. Particularly because Sauron built his fortress in the southern Mirkwood and spent most of the last 2000 years there. Further south, the lands west of the river are near Lorien and Fangorn, and people are afraid of the beings living in those forests. On the eastern side, the lands between Mirkwood and Mordor are either barren or were ruined in the battles at the end of the Second Age. Osgiliath, Minas Anor/Tirith, and Minas Ithil/Morgul used to be three great cities of Gondor. However, Minas Ithil was lost and Osgiliath abandoned long ago. At the end of the Third Age, most of the population of Gondor lives in the coastal areas protected by the White Mountains and Minas Tirith. Pelargir is a major port near the mouth of Anduin, and Dol Amroth is another major city. We know little of the lands to the east and to the south, except that they were capable of sending large armies against Gondor.