9 ms·

Golden Gate Bridge construction – and indignation (2012)

45 points by notlukesky 4y ago

basedgod 4y ago
a bridge to nowhere, that's a blight on that neighborhood in SF (in the middle of a beautiful park), and has served to fuel and encourage car culture, and does not integrate with public transit in the slightest few civic minded people celebrate the freeways that have torn 20th century cities apart, and this bridge is (a very pretty) extension of this
- xivzgrev 4y ago
  Not sure what you mean by lack of integration with public transit. The Golden Gate Bridge does not have a subway. But it does carry a lot of buses. It also has biking and walking lanes, unlike other Bay Area bridges. Is your ideal to have no bridges, or at least bridges closed to individual cars (Like market st)?
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    The biking and walking lanes on golden gate leave much to be desired. I would not consider them functional for non leisure travel.
    - mhb 4y ago
      Yes. Biking across is not fun at all.
  - bluejekyll 4y ago
    A huge loss is that when Bart was built Marin voted against extending it north. The Bridge that we need foot and bike traffic access on is the Bay Bridge. That’s far more disappointing as it would better connect Oakland and SF (and Treasure Island!). With ebikes so popular now, that could actually displace cars significantly in the Bay Area.
    - bcrosby95 4y ago
      The eastern span has one. Mostly useless without one on the western span though. They seem to have a project up for it, but i'm not sure what the status is: https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestrian-micromobility/bay-bridge-west-span-path https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestria...
      - bluejekyll 4y ago
        Yeah I’ve seen all of the options for the western span, I think it’s going to require a lot of pressure on Sacramento to get any progress on this.
    - nullc 4y ago
      > A huge loss is that when Bart was built Marin voted against extending it north. Marin was kicked out, as a result of San Mateo pulling out leaving Bart under funded. As they said at the time, "We are withdrawing involuntarily and upon request,". A 1956 poll found that 87.7 percent of Marin residents wanted a BART line. https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/How-BART-almost-connected-to-Marin-by-way-of-the-16309661.php https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/How-BART-almost-connect...
      - bluejekyll 4y ago
        That is much better context, definitely conflicts with the common understanding people have of why the Marin portion failed.
    - duskwuff 4y ago
      > The Bridge that we need foot and bike traffic access on is the Bay Bridge. I'm not sure how useful that would be. The Bay Bridge is quite long, at ~4.5 miles end-to-end, and the east span terminates in a huge toll plaza in an industrial area of Oakland which is neither bike- nor pedestrian-friendly. I wouldn't realistically expect any significant number of bikers to use the bridge, and those that did would probably be using it more for recreation than transport. Like it or not, the Bay Bridge was built as a highway connector.
- kaycebasques 4y ago
  If I imagine it as an ugly bridge then I can see your points well. But I really think you have to figure the beauty of it into the equation. It draws unbelievable tourism to the city. My wife (a Brazilian) has a tattoo of it - that's how strong the allure is for some people (although of course there are people all around the world who have a tattoo of whatever architectural icon that drew them to their adopted city). $35M to make your city an international icon is a bargain. Of course the creators probably had no idea it would have that kind of impact but my only point is that when talking about the GGB the beauty is an inextricable part of the equation.
  - basedgod 4y ago
    it's a bargain for the city but still a blight on it's residents that does not serve them in any way it makes the lives of a few rich people better as they can commute to their yachts better, but that's about it sf would have been completely fine as a city without this bridge
    - boulos 4y ago
      Do you feel that reaching Point Reyes and other areas in the north does not "serve them in any way"? Bridges have existed for millennia because they're useful to both sides of the bridge.
      - basedgod 4y ago
        this garbage bridge does not serve it's residents above replacement. ferries already existed, as well as other ways to get to the areas north of the city. the main issue with this bridge is that it is the enemy of better, and a bridge/tunnel with forward thinking infrastructure and transit can now never be built, now that we have this antiquated garbage bridge built, merely for the myth of car ownership the civil planning doesn't even extend to the rest of the city, it's merely plopped down onto an arbitrary section of it. it would have been better to not have been built at all. a more ugly bridge built later on wouldn't have had the nimbys we have today, and could have been torn down and retrofitted without it being sacrilegious
- humanistbot 4y ago
  When I lived in SF, I really enjoyed taking the Muni 76X express bus from downtown SF across the Golden Gate Bridge to Muir Woods. It only runs on the weekends, but that's not the bridge's fault.
- Johnny555 4y ago
  and does not integrate with public transit in the slightest I used to live in SF and commuted to Sausalito daily, either by GGT bus or bike (or rarely, took the ferry but riding home from the ferry wasn't much shorter than just riding to Sausalito).
- pengaru 4y ago
  Of all the bridges in the bay area, the Golden Gate is the least deserving of such contempt IMHO. At least pedestrians and cyclists can make use of it, I've done multiple bike rides from The Sunset to Marin/Sausalito/Larkspur via the GGB. Never a bad time. The Bay Bridge however, now that's a bridge I can get behind hating on. Lots of lost opportunity.
gumby 4y ago
The BART counterexample is great. However what this reminds me of most is the transition (or lack thereof) to clean power.
tomcam 4y ago
You can walk across it. Took me way too long to do so. Even up close it’s an aesthetic and engineering treat.
- bombcar 4y ago
  A surprising amount of bridges are walkable - and almost always a treat, even if you just park near one end and walk out and back.
  - Fatnino 4y ago
    You can walk across the Dumbarton bridge. It's... not to everyone's taste.
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
  Something to note is they have “automatic gates” that are supposed to prevent overnight pedestrian access while allowing overnight bicycle access. Can anyone share how these gates work in practice? https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-pedestrians/ https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-...
  - udit99 4y ago
    " Cyclists press the "buzzer" located near the closed security gate. After security staff locates the cyclist on a security camera, the gate is opened remotely. "
    - CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
      Ty! I took too literally the word “automatic” and stopped reading. Wonder how long before they try to use ML instead of the human judgment..
  - ginja 4y ago
    Interesting. What's the point in differentiating between pedestrians and cyclists? Is it an attempt at preventing suicide for non-bikers?
tingletech 4y ago
2012
goatcode 4y ago
It's so easy to look at decades old successes and scoff at opponents, but without hindsight it's easy to appreciate criticism. We're no smarter or more sophisticated than anyone back then, and shouldn't use a story like this to justify making fun of opponents of new projects, today. I'm certain that there are 10 boondoggles to every success like this, and if we took those into account, maybe we'd be a bit more sober about our criticism of people whom we've never met who healthily question everything.
- Cupertino95014 4y ago
  > who healthily question everything leave out the adverb. If you question everything you're not adding any information. If you support some things and question others, then people tend to listen to you.
  - goatcode 4y ago
    By "question," I mean "question," not "detract." Questioning is never unhealthy, because questioning is looking critically (which also has no natively negative connotation).
anewpersonality 4y ago
The craziest thing is the zipper. Surprised other bridges, like Sydney Harbour, don't do the same thing.
knoxa2511 4y ago
I'm pretty surprised to see all this bridge hate. I use the bridge multiple times a week to mountain bike or surf in north bay. I picked my spot in the city in part because of it's proximity to the bridge.
ginja 4y ago
Cool article! The Golden Gate is so iconic that Portugal contracted American companies to build a similar one in Lisbon and painted it the same color: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_de_Abril_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_de_Abril_Bridge Originally it had only 4 car lanes (2 in each direction), but was designed to be expanded and some 30 years later two new lanes were added and two sets of train tracks were built in the lower deck, which now carry both intercity and suburban trains that are much faster than driving during rush hour. An interesting unique feature is that 2 of the lanes are made of steel grating instead of asphalt in order to reduce aerodynamic forces in high winds. The other bridge across the Tagus is also remarkable, given that it is the longest in the EU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama_Bridge
- Lammy 4y ago
  > The other bridge across the Tagus is also remarkable I love how it looks like we just copied them back :p https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_the_San_Francisco%E2%80%93Oakland_Bay_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_th...
cheesy_luigi 4y ago
It's funny seeing that people's attitudes haven't changed in 100 years. Today in San Francisco you still see a small minority of NIMBYs protesting every little change. But the difference is, now they actually have the power to completely block projects. What changed? If I had to wager, I would say CEQA making it much harder to build, and much easier to block any construction.
- seoaeu 4y ago
  Tons of laws changed, particularly in response to the construction of urban highways and “slum clearance” both of which involved the demolition of entire neighborhoods
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bsimpson 4y ago
Based on the date, I'm guessing this was for the 75th anniversary of the bridge. That was the coolest fireworks show I've ever seen.
divbzero 4y ago
Traffic projections were “over-optimistic” is the anti-bridge argument that could have swayed me the most. I’ve always been struck by the contrast in population density north and south of the Golden Gate. Perhaps because Marin is more mountainous than the mildly hilly San Francisco?

45 points by notlukesky 4y ago

a bridge to nowhere, that's a blight on that neighborhood in SF (in the middle of a beautiful park), and has served to fuel and encourage car culture, and does not integrate with public transit in the slightest few civic minded people celebrate the freeways that have torn 20th century cities apart, and this bridge is (a very pretty) extension of this

xivzgrev 4y ago
Not sure what you mean by lack of integration with public transit. The Golden Gate Bridge does not have a subway. But it does carry a lot of buses. It also has biking and walking lanes, unlike other Bay Area bridges. Is your ideal to have no bridges, or at least bridges closed to individual cars (Like market st)?
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  The biking and walking lanes on golden gate leave much to be desired. I would not consider them functional for non leisure travel.
  - mhb 4y ago
    Yes. Biking across is not fun at all.
- bluejekyll 4y ago
  A huge loss is that when Bart was built Marin voted against extending it north. The Bridge that we need foot and bike traffic access on is the Bay Bridge. That’s far more disappointing as it would better connect Oakland and SF (and Treasure Island!). With ebikes so popular now, that could actually displace cars significantly in the Bay Area.
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    The eastern span has one. Mostly useless without one on the western span though. They seem to have a project up for it, but i'm not sure what the status is: https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestrian-micromobility/bay-bridge-west-span-path https://mtc.ca.gov/planning/transportation/bicycle-pedestria...
    - bluejekyll 4y ago
      Yeah I’ve seen all of the options for the western span, I think it’s going to require a lot of pressure on Sacramento to get any progress on this.
  - nullc 4y ago
    > A huge loss is that when Bart was built Marin voted against extending it north. Marin was kicked out, as a result of San Mateo pulling out leaving Bart under funded. As they said at the time, "We are withdrawing involuntarily and upon request,". A 1956 poll found that 87.7 percent of Marin residents wanted a BART line. https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/How-BART-almost-connected-to-Marin-by-way-of-the-16309661.php https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/How-BART-almost-connect...
    - bluejekyll 4y ago
      That is much better context, definitely conflicts with the common understanding people have of why the Marin portion failed.
  - duskwuff 4y ago
    > The Bridge that we need foot and bike traffic access on is the Bay Bridge. I'm not sure how useful that would be. The Bay Bridge is quite long, at ~4.5 miles end-to-end, and the east span terminates in a huge toll plaza in an industrial area of Oakland which is neither bike- nor pedestrian-friendly. I wouldn't realistically expect any significant number of bikers to use the bridge, and those that did would probably be using it more for recreation than transport. Like it or not, the Bay Bridge was built as a highway connector.
kaycebasques 4y ago
If I imagine it as an ugly bridge then I can see your points well. But I really think you have to figure the beauty of it into the equation. It draws unbelievable tourism to the city. My wife (a Brazilian) has a tattoo of it - that's how strong the allure is for some people (although of course there are people all around the world who have a tattoo of whatever architectural icon that drew them to their adopted city). $35M to make your city an international icon is a bargain. Of course the creators probably had no idea it would have that kind of impact but my only point is that when talking about the GGB the beauty is an inextricable part of the equation.
- basedgod 4y ago
  it's a bargain for the city but still a blight on it's residents that does not serve them in any way it makes the lives of a few rich people better as they can commute to their yachts better, but that's about it sf would have been completely fine as a city without this bridge
  - boulos 4y ago
    Do you feel that reaching Point Reyes and other areas in the north does not "serve them in any way"? Bridges have existed for millennia because they're useful to both sides of the bridge.
    - basedgod 4y ago
      this garbage bridge does not serve it's residents above replacement. ferries already existed, as well as other ways to get to the areas north of the city. the main issue with this bridge is that it is the enemy of better, and a bridge/tunnel with forward thinking infrastructure and transit can now never be built, now that we have this antiquated garbage bridge built, merely for the myth of car ownership the civil planning doesn't even extend to the rest of the city, it's merely plopped down onto an arbitrary section of it. it would have been better to not have been built at all. a more ugly bridge built later on wouldn't have had the nimbys we have today, and could have been torn down and retrofitted without it being sacrilegious
humanistbot 4y ago
When I lived in SF, I really enjoyed taking the Muni 76X express bus from downtown SF across the Golden Gate Bridge to Muir Woods. It only runs on the weekends, but that's not the bridge's fault.
Johnny555 4y ago
and does not integrate with public transit in the slightest I used to live in SF and commuted to Sausalito daily, either by GGT bus or bike (or rarely, took the ferry but riding home from the ferry wasn't much shorter than just riding to Sausalito).
pengaru 4y ago
Of all the bridges in the bay area, the Golden Gate is the least deserving of such contempt IMHO. At least pedestrians and cyclists can make use of it, I've done multiple bike rides from The Sunset to Marin/Sausalito/Larkspur via the GGB. Never a bad time. The Bay Bridge however, now that's a bridge I can get behind hating on. Lots of lost opportunity.

gumby 4y ago

The BART counterexample is great. However what this reminds me of most is the transition (or lack thereof) to clean power.

tomcam 4y ago

You can walk across it. Took me way too long to do so. Even up close it’s an aesthetic and engineering treat.

bombcar 4y ago
A surprising amount of bridges are walkable - and almost always a treat, even if you just park near one end and walk out and back.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  You can walk across the Dumbarton bridge. It's... not to everyone's taste.
CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
Something to note is they have “automatic gates” that are supposed to prevent overnight pedestrian access while allowing overnight bicycle access. Can anyone share how these gates work in practice? https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-pedestrians/ https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/visiting-the-bridge/bikes-...
- udit99 4y ago
  " Cyclists press the "buzzer" located near the closed security gate. After security staff locates the cyclist on a security camera, the gate is opened remotely. "
  - CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
    Ty! I took too literally the word “automatic” and stopped reading. Wonder how long before they try to use ML instead of the human judgment..
- ginja 4y ago
  Interesting. What's the point in differentiating between pedestrians and cyclists? Is it an attempt at preventing suicide for non-bikers?

tingletech 4y ago

2012

goatcode 4y ago

It's so easy to look at decades old successes and scoff at opponents, but without hindsight it's easy to appreciate criticism. We're no smarter or more sophisticated than anyone back then, and shouldn't use a story like this to justify making fun of opponents of new projects, today. I'm certain that there are 10 boondoggles to every success like this, and if we took those into account, maybe we'd be a bit more sober about our criticism of people whom we've never met who healthily question everything.

Cupertino95014 4y ago
> who healthily question everything leave out the adverb. If you question everything you're not adding any information. If you support some things and question others, then people tend to listen to you.
- goatcode 4y ago
  By "question," I mean "question," not "detract." Questioning is never unhealthy, because questioning is looking critically (which also has no natively negative connotation).

anewpersonality 4y ago

The craziest thing is the zipper. Surprised other bridges, like Sydney Harbour, don't do the same thing.

knoxa2511 4y ago

I'm pretty surprised to see all this bridge hate. I use the bridge multiple times a week to mountain bike or surf in north bay. I picked my spot in the city in part because of it's proximity to the bridge.

ginja 4y ago

Cool article! The Golden Gate is so iconic that Portugal contracted American companies to build a similar one in Lisbon and painted it the same color: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_de_Abril_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_de_Abril_Bridge Originally it had only 4 car lanes (2 in each direction), but was designed to be expanded and some 30 years later two new lanes were added and two sets of train tracks were built in the lower deck, which now carry both intercity and suburban trains that are much faster than driving during rush hour. An interesting unique feature is that 2 of the lanes are made of steel grating instead of asphalt in order to reduce aerodynamic forces in high winds. The other bridge across the Tagus is also remarkable, given that it is the longest in the EU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama_Bridge

Lammy 4y ago
> The other bridge across the Tagus is also remarkable I love how it looks like we just copied them back :p https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_the_San_Francisco%E2%80%93Oakland_Bay_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_th...

cheesy_luigi 4y ago

It's funny seeing that people's attitudes haven't changed in 100 years. Today in San Francisco you still see a small minority of NIMBYs protesting every little change. But the difference is, now they actually have the power to completely block projects. What changed? If I had to wager, I would say CEQA making it much harder to build, and much easier to block any construction.

seoaeu 4y ago
Tons of laws changed, particularly in response to the construction of urban highways and “slum clearance” both of which involved the demolition of entire neighborhoods

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bsimpson 4y ago

Based on the date, I'm guessing this was for the 75th anniversary of the bridge. That was the coolest fireworks show I've ever seen.

divbzero 4y ago

Traffic projections were “over-optimistic” is the anti-bridge argument that could have swayed me the most. I’ve always been struck by the contrast in population density north and south of the Golden Gate. Perhaps because Marin is more mountainous than the mildly hilly San Francisco?