4 ms·

The industrial revolution is in the book, it's the actual antagonist of the story. Tolkien was a devout Catholic distributist and Hobbingen was his ideal Cathol

The industrial revolution is in the book, it's the actual antagonist of the story. Tolkien was a devout Catholic distributist and Hobbingen was his ideal Catholic community of self reliant Hobbits who answer to wizards and kings, not to factory floor managers and administrators.

nostrademons 4y ago
Right, the industrialists are literally right there in the form of Saruman and the Orcs of Isengard: "Together, my lord Sauron, we shall rule this Middle-earth. The old world will burn in the fires of industry. Forests will fall. A new order will rise. We will drive the machine of war with the sword and the spear and the iron fist of the orc." The orcs could be looked at as an allegory of the faceless, dehumanized, industrialized proletariat, people who had sold their soul to the machine. They can be seen crafting huge weapons of war, siege engines and such, in giant factories fueled by those coal deposits. The reason the industrial revolution never happened in Middle Earth is because the Fellowship of the Ring prevented it.
- galacticaactual 4y ago
  Paul Kingsnorth has some wonderful essays exploring this exact concept.
  - avereveard 4y ago
    This old game explores industrialized fantasy as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_M...
- thelittleone 4y ago
  If only Tolkien wrote another story where the industrial revolution in Middle Earth (as you describe it) occurs, along with a fellowship that brings it down and returns Middle Earth to it's former glory.
  - vogre 4y ago
    Try “the Last Ringbearer”.
  - mellavora 4y ago
    This is in LORT. Remember when the hobbits return to the Shire at the end, and have to set things straight?
    - jorvi 4y ago
      Kind of criminal that I have to scroll this far down to see someone mention Saruman industrializing the Shire.
- kqr 4y ago
  As is common, fantasy stories depict individual heroes overthrowing bureaucracies. (Harry Potter is an obvious exception where it's the other way around.)
  - comex 4y ago
    > (Harry Potter is an obvious exception where it's the other way around.) It is? Harry spent a lot of time contending with bureaucracy, whether in the form of overbearing schoolteachers or a corrupt Ministry of Magic. One of the series’ major villains, Dolores Umbridge, is sort of a personification of bureaucracy.
    - hnbad 4y ago
      As has been explained in more detail by more capable media critics than me, Harry Potter's overall narrative arc is about restoring bureaucracy, not overthrowing it. The problem are never the systems but individuals abusing them because they're evil (with little motivation given). If anything, framing it as "the bureaucracy overthrowing the hero" (or the hero making peace with the system, for a less dramatic interpretation) is only wrong because this implies the hero was ever at odds with the system to begin with. The system is never questioned (except by Hermione, who is portrayed as annoying an naive when she does it), only individual bad actors are identified defeated. The ending of Harry Potter does not have wizards living openly alongside muggles, house elves liberated, mutual respect and trust between wizards and goblins, or the abolition of the Ministry. Instead it shows the next generation of students getting to experience the same exciting start in their train ride to Hogwarts with the implication that this time, things will be different because the evil people are REALLY gone this time.
    - moron4hire 4y ago
      Harry Potter is distinctly about protecting the "sanctity" of institutions, at the expense of individuality. Umbridge may be the personification of bureaucracy in our minds, but in JKR's, she's a threat to the image of British boarding schools being elite, character-building places for children. Note that, as a disciplinarian, she's functionally equivalent to Snape. That was not Umbridge's "sin". Her sin was teaching to the test, removing the academic rigor of Hogwarts, presumably leaving it on par with lesser schools. We might even look at her clothing and, in our minds, it looks very conservative. But in the wizard world, we never see anyone wearing such outlandishly colorful clothing. What looks like a makeup MLM saleswoman's outfit to us is a radical expression of individual style in the HP world. In Harry Potter, individuality comes at a price. The more you express individualistic thought, living outside of the norms of society, the more impoverished you need to be to remain "good". Look at the Weasleys. Look at the Lovegoods. Those that attempt to be successful and individuals are default evil. HP is so incredibly conservative, it's surprising everyone was surprised by JKR's politics.
- zahllos 4y ago
  It is also clear that the author hasn't actually read the lord of the rings. It doesn't feature in the films but the scouring of the Shire happens after the defeat of Sauron, in which Saruman and Wormtongue take over the Shire and push the same industrialization they were pushing at Orthanc. They have a small battle, Saruman is killed by Wormtongue, who is killed by Hobbits and then everything is right again for the last chapter. I'd also say an industrial revolution of sorts is definitely a component of the story and unambiguously considered bad.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > It is also clear that the author hasn't actually read the lord of the rings. He even says so in one of the early paragraphs. Also this substank "Launched 15 days ago". Feels like clickbait self-promotion. I'm not sure why anyone's wasting time with this nonsense question while not-high.
    - featherlesbiped 4y ago
      Will remain neutral on all other opinions, but to be clear, I use the substack as a home for my reddit shitposts, some random person put it on here and it blew up
    - zahllos 4y ago
      Why are fantasy settings by and large medieval (and not evolving) probably has some interest (often the setting involves lost technology, "a great civilisation has disappeared". Tolkien does this too, with the silmarils, the fall of numenor). In fact per Tolkien law all the amazing elves are basically dying out and we're gonna be stuck with boring mortal men in the fourth age. So arguably all the good stuff has happened and we're on the road to ruin. Wonder if he read the daily mail? A significant portion of authors might just be emulating Tolkien, I suppose. Also hard to have a secret elven forest base with high resolution satellite imagery, thermal imaging and precision guided weapons. You don't need the books though, you can check online to see about the scouring of the shire and Saruman in general, which for the Tolkien case makes his views pretty clear. If you really want to waste some time, consider that the eagles came and rescued Frodo/Bilbo from mount doom near the end. They could easily have flown them _into_ mordor in the first place, especially since at that time the Nazgul were not airborne, saving a very extensive tour of New Zealand (uh I mean middle earth) in the process. Would've needed far less elven bread and a smaller fellowship and got them more air miles. Gandalf could've also taken a spa holiday instead of an arduous hike, bungee jump with a balrog, death and resurrection, which I'm fairly sure weren't covered by his travel insurance and likely not recommended by his doctor. Ultimately it is a story. In some senses alternative worlds allow you to compare "what ifs?" and this can be fun. However you have to be careful how much you read tvtropes...
Thorentis 4y ago
Yes exactly. The Scourging of the Shire - something no depicted in the movies but one of the best parts of the final book - highlights this perfectly.
thematrixturtle 4y ago
The premise of the rather fascinating "Last Ringbearer" is that Mordor and the orcs were on the verge of a successful industrial revolution, only to be thwarted by the racist, imperialist alliance of the Fellowship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer
- lioeters 4y ago
  The book in English can be downloaded from this page: https://ymarkov.livejournal.com/280578.html https://ymarkov.livejournal.com/280578.html
xg15 4y ago
This. Also, there are a few moments scattered throughout the book where the hobbits get to eavesdrop on conversations between Sauron's orcs and we gatch a few glimpses of Mordor's internal organisation. The tone of those conversations always struck me as surprisingly "modern" compared to the "epic medieval" style of the rest of the book: Orcs apparently have ID numbers, they complain about arrogant bosses, at some point talk about one of the Nazgul's winged beasts like requesting a helicopter flight, talk about setting up on their own, etc. The talk sounds more like that of a frustrated and cynical foot soldier in a modern millitary or an employee in a megacorp would sound than some medieval thug. Sauron's and Saruman's architecture is also very clearly industrial - the book is much more explicit about that than the movie: Isengard is described as full of technology, while buildings in Mordor (and later in occupied Shire) are described as barracks and huts made out of bricks, connected by a regular network of roads. And then there is the "new mill" in the Shire...
- tomgp 4y ago
  YES! On a recent re-read the different tones Tolkien uses for different parts of the book were really apparent (I was readinbg it aloud to a child). The two main modes are, of course, the pastoral Hobbit sections (not just in the shire, but right up to the end whenever we're following hobbits as our pov character you get to hear about day to day concerns of cooking and cleaning and homelife) and the high fantasy style of the Men esp anything with Aragorn and no hobbits (full names given at the drop of a hat and plentiful information about lineages and ancient battles). But along side this we also get the oral/ lyric tradition exemplified by the Bombadil sideline, the rambling medieval scholar (gandalf reading the half descroyed chronicle in Moria) and yes, the grumblings of modern industrial bureacracy of the orcs and later the hobbits in Sharkey's thrall.
- pm90 4y ago
  Not that it matters but I would argue that this sort of organization is strictly required to operate at the scale of armies in question. The wars in the previous ages are described as being a bit more “equal” suggesting there were equally large hosts of humans/elves though, but maybe they’re able to organize “because magic” (e.g. elves may benefit from lembas bread allowing them to not have to worry about supply lines like the orcs).
matkoniecz 4y ago
Exactly! Saruman was running industrial revolution of the worst variety, and book ending is about dismantling it in Shire. Curiously Shire has numerous products that require industrial base, without industrial revolution being present. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Industrial_hell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_o...
floraandfauna 4y ago
It is so disheartening that I had to scroll halfway down the page to find the actual correct answer here. I don't understand how this couldn't be immediately obvious to anyone who has actually read the books. Ironically, if Tolkien were still around I'm 100% sure he'd see the Jackson/Amazonification of LOTR as another real-world manifestation of the same forces that turned Orthanc into a huge weapons factory and nearly succeeded in turning the Shire into one big polluted light industrial zone: take something beautiful and unique, strap it down on a steel table and suck every ounce of value out of it, then toss its gasping dying husk into the dumpster on your way out to go party on your megayacht. Very, very telling that The Scouring of the Shire was left out of the movies.
- psyc 4y ago
  I was about to write the same thing. When I saw the title, my first thought was "because Tolkein would have had that happen over his dead body, and that's kind of the whole point." I thought this was common knowledge, especially among nerds.
panick21_ 4y ago
> who answer to wizards and kings They don't 'answer' to either wizards or kings.

nostrademons 4y ago

Right, the industrialists are literally right there in the form of Saruman and the Orcs of Isengard: "Together, my lord Sauron, we shall rule this Middle-earth. The old world will burn in the fires of industry. Forests will fall. A new order will rise. We will drive the machine of war with the sword and the spear and the iron fist of the orc." The orcs could be looked at as an allegory of the faceless, dehumanized, industrialized proletariat, people who had sold their soul to the machine. They can be seen crafting huge weapons of war, siege engines and such, in giant factories fueled by those coal deposits. The reason the industrial revolution never happened in Middle Earth is because the Fellowship of the Ring prevented it.

galacticaactual 4y ago
Paul Kingsnorth has some wonderful essays exploring this exact concept.
- avereveard 4y ago
  This old game explores industrialized fantasy as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_M...
thelittleone 4y ago
If only Tolkien wrote another story where the industrial revolution in Middle Earth (as you describe it) occurs, along with a fellowship that brings it down and returns Middle Earth to it's former glory.
- vogre 4y ago
  Try “the Last Ringbearer”.
- mellavora 4y ago
  This is in LORT. Remember when the hobbits return to the Shire at the end, and have to set things straight?
  - jorvi 4y ago
    Kind of criminal that I have to scroll this far down to see someone mention Saruman industrializing the Shire.
kqr 4y ago
As is common, fantasy stories depict individual heroes overthrowing bureaucracies. (Harry Potter is an obvious exception where it's the other way around.)
- comex 4y ago
  > (Harry Potter is an obvious exception where it's the other way around.) It is? Harry spent a lot of time contending with bureaucracy, whether in the form of overbearing schoolteachers or a corrupt Ministry of Magic. One of the series’ major villains, Dolores Umbridge, is sort of a personification of bureaucracy.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    As has been explained in more detail by more capable media critics than me, Harry Potter's overall narrative arc is about restoring bureaucracy, not overthrowing it. The problem are never the systems but individuals abusing them because they're evil (with little motivation given). If anything, framing it as "the bureaucracy overthrowing the hero" (or the hero making peace with the system, for a less dramatic interpretation) is only wrong because this implies the hero was ever at odds with the system to begin with. The system is never questioned (except by Hermione, who is portrayed as annoying an naive when she does it), only individual bad actors are identified defeated. The ending of Harry Potter does not have wizards living openly alongside muggles, house elves liberated, mutual respect and trust between wizards and goblins, or the abolition of the Ministry. Instead it shows the next generation of students getting to experience the same exciting start in their train ride to Hogwarts with the implication that this time, things will be different because the evil people are REALLY gone this time.
  - moron4hire 4y ago
    Harry Potter is distinctly about protecting the "sanctity" of institutions, at the expense of individuality. Umbridge may be the personification of bureaucracy in our minds, but in JKR's, she's a threat to the image of British boarding schools being elite, character-building places for children. Note that, as a disciplinarian, she's functionally equivalent to Snape. That was not Umbridge's "sin". Her sin was teaching to the test, removing the academic rigor of Hogwarts, presumably leaving it on par with lesser schools. We might even look at her clothing and, in our minds, it looks very conservative. But in the wizard world, we never see anyone wearing such outlandishly colorful clothing. What looks like a makeup MLM saleswoman's outfit to us is a radical expression of individual style in the HP world. In Harry Potter, individuality comes at a price. The more you express individualistic thought, living outside of the norms of society, the more impoverished you need to be to remain "good". Look at the Weasleys. Look at the Lovegoods. Those that attempt to be successful and individuals are default evil. HP is so incredibly conservative, it's surprising everyone was surprised by JKR's politics.
zahllos 4y ago
It is also clear that the author hasn't actually read the lord of the rings. It doesn't feature in the films but the scouring of the Shire happens after the defeat of Sauron, in which Saruman and Wormtongue take over the Shire and push the same industrialization they were pushing at Orthanc. They have a small battle, Saruman is killed by Wormtongue, who is killed by Hobbits and then everything is right again for the last chapter. I'd also say an industrial revolution of sorts is definitely a component of the story and unambiguously considered bad.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > It is also clear that the author hasn't actually read the lord of the rings. He even says so in one of the early paragraphs. Also this substank "Launched 15 days ago". Feels like clickbait self-promotion. I'm not sure why anyone's wasting time with this nonsense question while not-high.
  - featherlesbiped 4y ago
    Will remain neutral on all other opinions, but to be clear, I use the substack as a home for my reddit shitposts, some random person put it on here and it blew up
  - zahllos 4y ago
    Why are fantasy settings by and large medieval (and not evolving) probably has some interest (often the setting involves lost technology, "a great civilisation has disappeared". Tolkien does this too, with the silmarils, the fall of numenor). In fact per Tolkien law all the amazing elves are basically dying out and we're gonna be stuck with boring mortal men in the fourth age. So arguably all the good stuff has happened and we're on the road to ruin. Wonder if he read the daily mail? A significant portion of authors might just be emulating Tolkien, I suppose. Also hard to have a secret elven forest base with high resolution satellite imagery, thermal imaging and precision guided weapons. You don't need the books though, you can check online to see about the scouring of the shire and Saruman in general, which for the Tolkien case makes his views pretty clear. If you really want to waste some time, consider that the eagles came and rescued Frodo/Bilbo from mount doom near the end. They could easily have flown them _into_ mordor in the first place, especially since at that time the Nazgul were not airborne, saving a very extensive tour of New Zealand (uh I mean middle earth) in the process. Would've needed far less elven bread and a smaller fellowship and got them more air miles. Gandalf could've also taken a spa holiday instead of an arduous hike, bungee jump with a balrog, death and resurrection, which I'm fairly sure weren't covered by his travel insurance and likely not recommended by his doctor. Ultimately it is a story. In some senses alternative worlds allow you to compare "what ifs?" and this can be fun. However you have to be careful how much you read tvtropes...

Thorentis 4y ago

Yes exactly. The Scourging of the Shire - something no depicted in the movies but one of the best parts of the final book - highlights this perfectly.

thematrixturtle 4y ago

The premise of the rather fascinating "Last Ringbearer" is that Mordor and the orcs were on the verge of a successful industrial revolution, only to be thwarted by the racist, imperialist alliance of the Fellowship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

lioeters 4y ago
The book in English can be downloaded from this page: https://ymarkov.livejournal.com/280578.html https://ymarkov.livejournal.com/280578.html

xg15 4y ago

This. Also, there are a few moments scattered throughout the book where the hobbits get to eavesdrop on conversations between Sauron's orcs and we gatch a few glimpses of Mordor's internal organisation. The tone of those conversations always struck me as surprisingly "modern" compared to the "epic medieval" style of the rest of the book: Orcs apparently have ID numbers, they complain about arrogant bosses, at some point talk about one of the Nazgul's winged beasts like requesting a helicopter flight, talk about setting up on their own, etc. The talk sounds more like that of a frustrated and cynical foot soldier in a modern millitary or an employee in a megacorp would sound than some medieval thug. Sauron's and Saruman's architecture is also very clearly industrial - the book is much more explicit about that than the movie: Isengard is described as full of technology, while buildings in Mordor (and later in occupied Shire) are described as barracks and huts made out of bricks, connected by a regular network of roads. And then there is the "new mill" in the Shire...

tomgp 4y ago
YES! On a recent re-read the different tones Tolkien uses for different parts of the book were really apparent (I was readinbg it aloud to a child). The two main modes are, of course, the pastoral Hobbit sections (not just in the shire, but right up to the end whenever we're following hobbits as our pov character you get to hear about day to day concerns of cooking and cleaning and homelife) and the high fantasy style of the Men esp anything with Aragorn and no hobbits (full names given at the drop of a hat and plentiful information about lineages and ancient battles). But along side this we also get the oral/ lyric tradition exemplified by the Bombadil sideline, the rambling medieval scholar (gandalf reading the half descroyed chronicle in Moria) and yes, the grumblings of modern industrial bureacracy of the orcs and later the hobbits in Sharkey's thrall.
pm90 4y ago
Not that it matters but I would argue that this sort of organization is strictly required to operate at the scale of armies in question. The wars in the previous ages are described as being a bit more “equal” suggesting there were equally large hosts of humans/elves though, but maybe they’re able to organize “because magic” (e.g. elves may benefit from lembas bread allowing them to not have to worry about supply lines like the orcs).

matkoniecz 4y ago

Exactly! Saruman was running industrial revolution of the worst variety, and book ending is about dismantling it in Shire. Curiously Shire has numerous products that require industrial base, without industrial revolution being present. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Industrial_hell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_o...

floraandfauna 4y ago

It is so disheartening that I had to scroll halfway down the page to find the actual correct answer here. I don't understand how this couldn't be immediately obvious to anyone who has actually read the books. Ironically, if Tolkien were still around I'm 100% sure he'd see the Jackson/Amazonification of LOTR as another real-world manifestation of the same forces that turned Orthanc into a huge weapons factory and nearly succeeded in turning the Shire into one big polluted light industrial zone: take something beautiful and unique, strap it down on a steel table and suck every ounce of value out of it, then toss its gasping dying husk into the dumpster on your way out to go party on your megayacht. Very, very telling that The Scouring of the Shire was left out of the movies.

psyc 4y ago
I was about to write the same thing. When I saw the title, my first thought was "because Tolkein would have had that happen over his dead body, and that's kind of the whole point." I thought this was common knowledge, especially among nerds.

panick21_ 4y ago

> who answer to wizards and kings They don't 'answer' to either wizards or kings.