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> Safari is the new IE, there is a difference between a monopoly while still being able to use a competing product (like chrome in other platfroms), and forcing

by nicce 4y ago

> Safari is the new IE, there is a difference between a monopoly while still being able to use a competing product (like chrome in other platfroms), and forcing Safari(WebKit) while hindering the web because of Apples interests.(2-3) Ehm. Chrome is the new IE. Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Microsoft is doing even more, by pushing so much Edge-only stuff. On iOS Apple forces the Webkit rendering, but for normal user it does not even matter much. They can download Chrome and get the UI they want.

niko001 4y ago
It might not matter to users in the sense that they ask themselves what rendering engine Chrome on iOS is using under the hood, but the effects do matter. I get a lot of support requests saying "Your [web] app is broken on my iPhone!", "Right, Safari doesn't support feature XYZ", "I'm not using Safari, I'm using Chrome", "..."
- CharlesW 4y ago
  How does the developer story get better if you're required to support many web rendering engines on iOS instead of one? Or is the endgame that you'd just point people to Chrome/Blink and extend the web monoculture to Apple devices too?
  - jsnell 4y ago
    The endgame is that Apple is forced to actually make a working browser, rather than intentionally starve it of resources to benefit the App Store. Everyone wins.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  That seems to be a communication problem. Instead of saying "Right, Safari doesn't support feature XYZ", say "Right, iOS doesn't support feature XYZ". It's also technically more correct, the best kind.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  Just wait until Google has Chrome running natively on iOS and introduces nonstandard behaviors to break Safari rendering intentionally. Then at least you’ll be able to tell all your customers that you recommend switching to Chrome for all browsing. What a great victory for browser diversity and the open web!
lenkite 4y ago
Both Safari and Chrome are the new IE's. Regulation should force folks to download a browser or have competing browser (with relevant competing engines) already pre-installed on both iOS and Android.
jacooper 4y ago
IEs biggest problem isn't market domination, its hindering the entire web, and pushing proprietary stuff. Safari is one of the worst browsers in terms of compatibility, like PWAs and notifications, they are unsupported on purpose to push developer to develop apps and give apple a cut. And when they do adopt new technologies, they are often super late like webp. Please die WebKit.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  Safari supports everything in PWA (which is a non-existent thing, but a dozen standards in a trenchcoat) except notifications. By "compatibility" you mean "support all of the Chrome's no n-standards it pushes at breaking speed"?
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    > except notifications. Which is THE single selling points that brings everyone to make 2 native apps instead of one URL. It hs been available on Android for a decade, and is still undetermined when it will actually land in iOS.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      It won't, they want to push you to make an app no matter what.
      - the_gipsy 4y ago
        I bet
      - jolux 4y ago
        Actually Web Push is coming in iOS 16.
        the_gipsy 4y ago
        It's not in the release...
gunapologist99 4y ago
> Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max. I love the hardware, but I'd love to install other browsers; why can't I? I'd also love to run real PWA's or run WebRTC without major issues. Why shouldn't I be able to do these things? Apple enforces its own browser, which it carefully and deliberately hamstrings, in order to force web apps to not bypass the App Store, so Safari also enforces the App Store marketshare. They're tightly tied together (so tight that the Windows-IE tying isn't even in the same galaxy) in order to enforce the other's marketshare. At least Microsoft allowed third party browsers and installing apps from other locations. This is tying on a completely different level.
- zuhsetaqi 4y ago
  > Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. And that’s the big difference between Safari dominance and IE at the time. Safari is only on iOS/iPadOS dominant not in the entire market like IE was
  - dcow 4y ago
    There was no mobile at the time.
    - zuhsetaqi 4y ago
      It’s not about mobile or desktop, it’s about marketshare. So just all devices. IE had a nearly 100 % percent marketshare and Safari is far away from 100 % marketshare.
  - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
    That's what countered the claim that Windows+IE were 'one product' as opposed to separate, right? Outside of legal-land this seems like a BS argument, and even more so now. But legal-land is what matter first I suppose.

by nicce 4y ago

niko001 4y ago

It might not matter to users in the sense that they ask themselves what rendering engine Chrome on iOS is using under the hood, but the effects do matter. I get a lot of support requests saying "Your [web] app is broken on my iPhone!", "Right, Safari doesn't support feature XYZ", "I'm not using Safari, I'm using Chrome", "..."

CharlesW 4y ago
How does the developer story get better if you're required to support many web rendering engines on iOS instead of one? Or is the endgame that you'd just point people to Chrome/Blink and extend the web monoculture to Apple devices too?
- jsnell 4y ago
  The endgame is that Apple is forced to actually make a working browser, rather than intentionally starve it of resources to benefit the App Store. Everyone wins.
mynameisvlad 4y ago
That seems to be a communication problem. Instead of saying "Right, Safari doesn't support feature XYZ", say "Right, iOS doesn't support feature XYZ". It's also technically more correct, the best kind.
snowwrestler 4y ago
Just wait until Google has Chrome running natively on iOS and introduces nonstandard behaviors to break Safari rendering intentionally. Then at least you’ll be able to tell all your customers that you recommend switching to Chrome for all browsing. What a great victory for browser diversity and the open web!

lenkite 4y ago

Both Safari and Chrome are the new IE's. Regulation should force folks to download a browser or have competing browser (with relevant competing engines) already pre-installed on both iOS and Android.

jacooper 4y ago

IEs biggest problem isn't market domination, its hindering the entire web, and pushing proprietary stuff. Safari is one of the worst browsers in terms of compatibility, like PWAs and notifications, they are unsupported on purpose to push developer to develop apps and give apple a cut. And when they do adopt new technologies, they are often super late like webp. Please die WebKit.

dmitriid 4y ago
Safari supports everything in PWA (which is a non-existent thing, but a dozen standards in a trenchcoat) except notifications. By "compatibility" you mean "support all of the Chrome's no n-standards it pushes at breaking speed"?
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  > except notifications. Which is THE single selling points that brings everyone to make 2 native apps instead of one URL. It hs been available on Android for a decade, and is still undetermined when it will actually land in iOS.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    It won't, they want to push you to make an app no matter what.
    - the_gipsy 4y ago
      I bet
    - jolux 4y ago
      Actually Web Push is coming in iOS 16.
      - the_gipsy 4y ago
        It's not in the release...

gunapologist99 4y ago

> Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max. I love the hardware, but I'd love to install other browsers; why can't I? I'd also love to run real PWA's or run WebRTC without major issues. Why shouldn't I be able to do these things? Apple enforces its own browser, which it carefully and deliberately hamstrings, in order to force web apps to not bypass the App Store, so Safari also enforces the App Store marketshare. They're tightly tied together (so tight that the Windows-IE tying isn't even in the same galaxy) in order to enforce the other's marketshare. At least Microsoft allowed third party browsers and installing apps from other locations. This is tying on a completely different level.

zuhsetaqi 4y ago
> Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. And that’s the big difference between Safari dominance and IE at the time. Safari is only on iOS/iPadOS dominant not in the entire market like IE was
- dcow 4y ago
  There was no mobile at the time.
  - zuhsetaqi 4y ago
    It’s not about mobile or desktop, it’s about marketshare. So just all devices. IE had a nearly 100 % percent marketshare and Safari is far away from 100 % marketshare.
- LMYahooTFY 4y ago
  That's what countered the claim that Windows+IE were 'one product' as opposed to separate, right? Outside of legal-land this seems like a BS argument, and even more so now. But legal-land is what matter first I suppose.