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> I suspect it’s harder for a junior to succeed anywhere today vs 2012 When I was a jr engineer I was paired with some senior people who showed me the ropes. T

by mfer 4y ago

> I suspect it’s harder for a junior to succeed anywhere today vs 2012 When I was a jr engineer I was paired with some senior people who showed me the ropes. They expected it would take some time to come up to speed and intentionally worked to help me get there. They took my college degree as "proof I could learn" and then taught me what I needed to know. Over the last decade, I've seen less and less mentoring. Even before COVID and in office environments. The productivity expectations are just so high so often. It's hard to succeed in that environment.

formerkrogemp 4y ago
In my accounting internships, we were just expected to show up and work. There wasn't much mentoring, and accounting classes really only cover theory. It was a bit of shock to the system.
- mfer 4y ago
  That's unfortunate. People aren't cogs in a machine. New folks have a lot to learn. Even experienced people starting at a new company need to learn that company with its nuances. New people to an industry have SO MUCH to learn. Colleges aren't job prep.
treis 4y ago
IMHO it's turnover that's the problem. Companies get engineers for an average of like 24 months and it might be even less for junior employees. Taking the time to train someone up doesn't make as much sense when you're not going to get return on your investment.
- verve_rat 4y ago
  I'll add to that, the motivation to mentor someone really goes away the third or fourth time you see them hit the inflection point of the usefulness curve... just to be hired by someone else because $current_employer can't find an extra few grand to keep them. I don't like training and mentoring people. I'm pretty good at it, but I try my damnest to avoid it now.
  - treis 4y ago
    You should still do it. Those people leaving and going to other companies is good for you individually as it builds your network.
    - folkrav 4y ago
      Not everyone likes the mentoring and pedagogy aspects as much, and that's fine IMHO. I do like it despite turnover and "wasting" resources on some people, but I'm coming from an education/instruction background. I can see how some profiles would not be really interested in doing that.
      - treis 4y ago
        The GP said they didn't like it but did it anyway. They stopped because the developers they mentored would leave when they got good. My point is that it's better from them individually to mentor someone and have them leave because it builds their network.
  - MattGaiser 4y ago
    Yep, and why becoming one of the more senior members of a team is a reason I would leave a team. I wouldn't want to deal with on boarding people endlessly while still keeping up with my own work.
- Saint_Genet 4y ago
  Yes, but maybe it's time for companies to ask themselves why they have such high turnover
  - ratww 4y ago
    I think it really depends. I've seen junior devs getting promotions in several cases because they were that good. On the other hand, I've seen several less performant junior devs that are treated as completely replaceable. This was in companies where mentoring actually happened.
- dev_tty01 4y ago
  The question is why are they leaving after 24 months? Perhaps the company is lacking a clear path for development in terms of responsibility, impact, and renumeration. Not adequately training because they are expected to leave after 24 months is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
  - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
    It's mostly because it is taboo to give a pay rise above 15% to retain someone (unless promoting) but most companies are willing to spend more than that difference on new hires to match the market rate. I am sure there is some sort of game psychology explanation on HR's behaviour and equally, from an employee perspective, the cost/inertia of following through with a job change will probably weight in HR's favor.
    - geraldwhen 4y ago
      My company has paid double digit raises regularly. I’ve still seen people leave for internal transfers because they think the grass is greener. Money is why a lot of young devs quit, but it’s not the only reason.
      - fartcannon 4y ago
        You shouldn't dox yourself by answering this, but I sure wish you could tell us which company is giving double digit raises every year... I'm over here languishing at less than 2% at best, having to leave every year or so just to get the necessary bump.
- mfer 4y ago
  > IMHO it's turnover that's the problem. In software I've seen this to be a huge problem. In other disciplines my observations are that it's not as bad. The turnover issues is something that could use a lot more exploration. Nothing is going to change until it impacts those who are distant from the front line engineers. The managers of the engineers know about the problems. The executives over them are distant from the problem.
  - MattGaiser 4y ago
    > The turnover issues is something that could use a lot more exploration. It is about pay. If you switched jobs in the past year, you got a massive raise. If you stuck around, you got peanuts, if anything.
    - astura 4y ago
      I mean... I stuck around and got a 20% raise, fwiw.
  - treis 4y ago
    No other industry has salaries that rise this fast. I tripled my salary over about 5 years going from Junior -> Senior (experienced) -> Team lead. Quadrupled if you count the 6 months I did as a trainee.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    > Nothing is going to change until it impacts those who are distant from the front line engineers. What do you mean? Because companies are leaving a lot of money on the table, unable to complete software projects, and unable to solve the problems they care about just because of it. You mean it in some way other than monetary impact?
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Chicken vs Egg? Maybe the turnover is high because juniors aren't getting the support and mentoring they need to feel like it's worth sticking around. Is there evidence turnover has increased in the last decade or so? It's always been pretty high in the IT world anyway.
- Elinvynia 4y ago
  That's because their raises, if they happen, are factually pay cuts (aka lower than inflation).
jmercan 4y ago
I had to do my first two internships in office (started before the vaccine rollout reached my age group, eek) and my experience was pretty similar to what you said. I was given some time in the beginning to get familiar with the codebase but not much mentorship. Most questions I could only get an answer from was about business requirements because they were either too busy or didn't knew much more about the part I was working on. Not sure if my situation is usual though, even for interns after COVID started.
leetrout 4y ago
> Over the last decade, I've seen less and less mentoring. I've seen a lack of willingness be mentored / coached. Not directly of folks I have worked with but as a bystander. There's not one clear reason but there is an overtone of entitlement.
- MattGaiser 4y ago
  >I've seen a lack of willingness be mentored / coached. What do you mean by this? They were arrogant?
  - leetrout 4y ago
    Yes. Not showing up to office hours, willfully disregarding advice / tips on working with the team.
dfxm12 4y ago
Over the last decade, I've seen less and less mentoring. Even before COVID and in office environments. I agree, and for this reason, I don't like the framing of the editorialized headline, which lays blame only the Junior employee. We also have to consider this a failing among management, whether that be a direct supervisor who isn't taking an active enough role in the junior's development, or a higher manager who is giving out too much work so as to leave no one time for development. ETA: the submitted headline has since changed.

by mfer 4y ago

formerkrogemp 4y ago

In my accounting internships, we were just expected to show up and work. There wasn't much mentoring, and accounting classes really only cover theory. It was a bit of shock to the system.

mfer 4y ago
That's unfortunate. People aren't cogs in a machine. New folks have a lot to learn. Even experienced people starting at a new company need to learn that company with its nuances. New people to an industry have SO MUCH to learn. Colleges aren't job prep.

treis 4y ago

IMHO it's turnover that's the problem. Companies get engineers for an average of like 24 months and it might be even less for junior employees. Taking the time to train someone up doesn't make as much sense when you're not going to get return on your investment.

verve_rat 4y ago
I'll add to that, the motivation to mentor someone really goes away the third or fourth time you see them hit the inflection point of the usefulness curve... just to be hired by someone else because $current_employer can't find an extra few grand to keep them. I don't like training and mentoring people. I'm pretty good at it, but I try my damnest to avoid it now.
- treis 4y ago
  You should still do it. Those people leaving and going to other companies is good for you individually as it builds your network.
  - folkrav 4y ago
    Not everyone likes the mentoring and pedagogy aspects as much, and that's fine IMHO. I do like it despite turnover and "wasting" resources on some people, but I'm coming from an education/instruction background. I can see how some profiles would not be really interested in doing that.
    - treis 4y ago
      The GP said they didn't like it but did it anyway. They stopped because the developers they mentored would leave when they got good. My point is that it's better from them individually to mentor someone and have them leave because it builds their network.
- MattGaiser 4y ago
  Yep, and why becoming one of the more senior members of a team is a reason I would leave a team. I wouldn't want to deal with on boarding people endlessly while still keeping up with my own work.
Saint_Genet 4y ago
Yes, but maybe it's time for companies to ask themselves why they have such high turnover
- ratww 4y ago
  I think it really depends. I've seen junior devs getting promotions in several cases because they were that good. On the other hand, I've seen several less performant junior devs that are treated as completely replaceable. This was in companies where mentoring actually happened.
dev_tty01 4y ago
The question is why are they leaving after 24 months? Perhaps the company is lacking a clear path for development in terms of responsibility, impact, and renumeration. Not adequately training because they are expected to leave after 24 months is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  It's mostly because it is taboo to give a pay rise above 15% to retain someone (unless promoting) but most companies are willing to spend more than that difference on new hires to match the market rate. I am sure there is some sort of game psychology explanation on HR's behaviour and equally, from an employee perspective, the cost/inertia of following through with a job change will probably weight in HR's favor.
  - geraldwhen 4y ago
    My company has paid double digit raises regularly. I’ve still seen people leave for internal transfers because they think the grass is greener. Money is why a lot of young devs quit, but it’s not the only reason.
    - fartcannon 4y ago
      You shouldn't dox yourself by answering this, but I sure wish you could tell us which company is giving double digit raises every year... I'm over here languishing at less than 2% at best, having to leave every year or so just to get the necessary bump.
mfer 4y ago
> IMHO it's turnover that's the problem. In software I've seen this to be a huge problem. In other disciplines my observations are that it's not as bad. The turnover issues is something that could use a lot more exploration. Nothing is going to change until it impacts those who are distant from the front line engineers. The managers of the engineers know about the problems. The executives over them are distant from the problem.
- MattGaiser 4y ago
  > The turnover issues is something that could use a lot more exploration. It is about pay. If you switched jobs in the past year, you got a massive raise. If you stuck around, you got peanuts, if anything.
  - astura 4y ago
    I mean... I stuck around and got a 20% raise, fwiw.
- treis 4y ago
  No other industry has salaries that rise this fast. I tripled my salary over about 5 years going from Junior -> Senior (experienced) -> Team lead. Quadrupled if you count the 6 months I did as a trainee.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  > Nothing is going to change until it impacts those who are distant from the front line engineers. What do you mean? Because companies are leaving a lot of money on the table, unable to complete software projects, and unable to solve the problems they care about just because of it. You mean it in some way other than monetary impact?
wizofaus 4y ago
Chicken vs Egg? Maybe the turnover is high because juniors aren't getting the support and mentoring they need to feel like it's worth sticking around. Is there evidence turnover has increased in the last decade or so? It's always been pretty high in the IT world anyway.
Elinvynia 4y ago
That's because their raises, if they happen, are factually pay cuts (aka lower than inflation).

jmercan 4y ago

I had to do my first two internships in office (started before the vaccine rollout reached my age group, eek) and my experience was pretty similar to what you said. I was given some time in the beginning to get familiar with the codebase but not much mentorship. Most questions I could only get an answer from was about business requirements because they were either too busy or didn't knew much more about the part I was working on. Not sure if my situation is usual though, even for interns after COVID started.

leetrout 4y ago

> Over the last decade, I've seen less and less mentoring. I've seen a lack of willingness be mentored / coached. Not directly of folks I have worked with but as a bystander. There's not one clear reason but there is an overtone of entitlement.

MattGaiser 4y ago
>I've seen a lack of willingness be mentored / coached. What do you mean by this? They were arrogant?
- leetrout 4y ago
  Yes. Not showing up to office hours, willfully disregarding advice / tips on working with the team.

dfxm12 4y ago

Over the last decade, I've seen less and less mentoring. Even before COVID and in office environments. I agree, and for this reason, I don't like the framing of the editorialized headline, which lays blame only the Junior employee. We also have to consider this a failing among management, whether that be a direct supervisor who isn't taking an active enough role in the junior's development, or a higher manager who is giving out too much work so as to leave no one time for development. ETA: the submitted headline has since changed.