8 ms·

I would never join a union.

by djbebs 4y ago

Closi 4y ago
What's your job if you don't mind me asking? "I would never join a union" is a pretty easy thing to say if you are in a job with decent pay, a labour market that wants your skills, and have reasonably good working conditions.
- viraptor 4y ago
  Maybe he's "Burt at OK4" ;) (for context https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56581266 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56581266 Amazon was/is? hiring people to pretend they're happy employees on social media)
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  >What's your job if you don't mind me asking? Amazon warehouse manager.
red_trumpet 4y ago
Isn't that irrational? If the union provides you with benefits, why would you not join?
- DannyBee 4y ago
  Because there are plenty of times they make things worse? Let's assume the absolute best of intent, no corruption, etc. There is some good, of course. I won't deny this. I'm not going to talk about the upside, but please don't whataboutism me simply because i'm going to talk about the downsides - you asked whether it is irrational. It is no more irrational than any other moral/ethical/etc viewpoint that someone chooses over a financial one. I am plenty aware of the history and good they have done, and the horrible labor practices they helped put an end to. I just do not happen to be an ends justify means kind of person. their are a few countries where union equivalents have an explicit goal/requirements/etc around societal good - i have no issues there, the rest of this is about the ones that don't. For unions, overall, their goal is not to help society, it is to protect and help their members. They have no duty to society whatsoever. In the extreme, that ends up bad for anyone not their members. That is, they do everything they can only to get their members more money, more benefits, protect their jobs, etc. This sort of thing comes at a cost too. So they make it harder to fire bad cops, bad teachers, etc. When a municipality or state would be bankrupted by paying pensions, the unions will force them into bankruptcy at a cost to everyone else. The unions will first force them to raise pensions, too, to unpayable levels. The state/municipality has essentially no practical power against its workforce in that situation, so it agrees, again, at a cost to everyone else. The unions of course, do not care about the consequences for anyone else. They want it paid anyway. I have no issue with pushing for a living wage, etc. But again, it's for their members, not for everyone, except where they believe it will generate more union membership. So sum total, they do not care about anyone else. Literally. It's not their job. This is awesome for their members. Horrible for everyone else. So no, it's not irrational. Not everyone wants to group themselves with organizations designed to literally not care about anyone else. Follow the US-style unions to their logical extreme - everyone in society in is a union, divided by job. Yay!? I think that ends very badly for society - you really think the unions won't paint other jobs/unions/etc as the enemy? They do in plenty of cases already! So - i think it will end up the same sort of strong polarization/hate that exists across political affiliation, but across jobs instead. Great.
- dunefox 4y ago
  Because that would be communism or something.
  - Jhjjjjjjjj 4y ago
    Or because large companies routinely shut union factories because it's unprofitable?
  - drstewart 4y ago
    Good one. Now explain why unionized European programmers don't get paid nearly the same as un-unionized American ones. Is it because of fascism or something?
    - phabricator 4y ago
      Base salary or total compensation? Do you have any data or reason to believe "unionized European programmers don't get paid nearly the same as un-unionized American ones?"
      - weberer 4y ago
        https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-salary-comparison-country/ https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-s...
        phabricator 4y ago
        That's just a list of average salary by country. Does it show which of these are "UNIONIZED European programmers" and how many are "NON-UNION Americans?" If not, we can dismiss the claim outright.
        weberer 4y ago
        >If not, we can dismiss the claim outright All you can say at that point is "I'm too lazy to confirm or disprove it". If you want to disprove his statement for real, you're going to have to put in some effort looking things up.
- dijonman2 4y ago
  Union dues are not insignificant, I would never join a union for that reason unless I had to. Same reason I will never buy a home with a HOA.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  “Freedom.” is usually the stated reason. Some people feel that they’ll do better negotiating with a multi billion dollar company. Others are unable to think ahead/strategically and focus on the 3% fee or whatever. When you’re working for a company that manages you as tightly as Amazon does, it ridiculous to not have a union, if only for having some recourse with respect to work rules. My wife works for a local government where a bunch of the guys made a big show out of opting out of the union, they regretted that when a new administration came in and started targeting them for petty rule violations - eventually they were all forced out and replaced by cheaper people.
- jcims 4y ago
  I've worked for Teamsters Local 284 as a loader and unloader for UPS. Everybody talking about Amazon propaganda, you haven't seen anything until you've seen Teamsters propaganda. You feel like you've joined a church, it's ridiculous. And I've never in my life worked at a place where there was an outwardly combative relationship between management and staff. No cooperation whatsoever. I wouldn't go back to the teamsters because it's gross and creates dysfunction. My wife worked for the National Education Association for 15 years. I can't recall a single positive comment that she made about the union. The way the contracts are structured, educators get locked in to their home district after 5-10 years. They are useless for mediating anything but issues that are already written up in the contract and the ability for loafers to coast for the entirety of their career is commonly discussed and real. She would avoid the union because it coddles losers and doesn't lift a finger for staff dealing with real issues. The only partial success story with unions that I'm aware of is with my brother, a lineman for AT&T. He's had that job for almost 30 years (through a variety of telcos ultimately renamed AT&T) and has been a member of the Communication Workers of America. He talks about endless frustration with the union, that the reps are useless and that the contracts they negotiate are terrible. But he does have the ability to tell his management to fuck off if they ask him to do something dangerous (which happens rarely but enough to matter) and he takes advantage of that from time to time. He might re-up for a union, i don't know.
onion_now 4y ago
You'll be happy in one of the "right-to-work" states then. Wonder why they're hit the hardest by the "labor shortage?"
- Jhjjjjjjjj 4y ago
  Because those states have the lowest unemployment?
  - phabricator 4y ago
    Which is good right?! Nope! Labor markets can reach a point where each job added does not create enough productivity to cover its cost, every next job after that is inefficient ("slack"). With an unemployment rate as drastically low as many right to work states, wage inflation becomes a big issue, so companies hire less efficient employees. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-rising-wages-scuttle-the-small-cap-stock-surge-2017-05-12 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-rising-wages-scuttle...
  - viraptor 4y ago
    You got me interested, but no. 5/10 states with lowest unemployment are RTW.
boudin 4y ago
Union are not born out of nowhere. Those exists to balance relationships. Most of the work a union does not get publicity but can is really important by ensuring of the well being of employees. Union do not create problems, they just give visibility to problems which are already there. Of course, like everything, some unions takes bad decisions, but that's just a small part of it.

I would never join a union.

by djbebs 4y ago

I would never join a union.

What's your job if you don't mind me asking? "I would never join a union" is a pretty easy thing to say if you are in a job with decent pay, a labour market that wants your skills, and have reasonably good working conditions.

viraptor 4y ago
Maybe he's "Burt at OK4" ;) (for context https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56581266 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56581266 Amazon was/is? hiring people to pretend they're happy employees on social media)
5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
>What's your job if you don't mind me asking? Amazon warehouse manager.

red_trumpet 4y ago

Isn't that irrational? If the union provides you with benefits, why would you not join?

DannyBee 4y ago
Because there are plenty of times they make things worse? Let's assume the absolute best of intent, no corruption, etc. There is some good, of course. I won't deny this. I'm not going to talk about the upside, but please don't whataboutism me simply because i'm going to talk about the downsides - you asked whether it is irrational. It is no more irrational than any other moral/ethical/etc viewpoint that someone chooses over a financial one. I am plenty aware of the history and good they have done, and the horrible labor practices they helped put an end to. I just do not happen to be an ends justify means kind of person. their are a few countries where union equivalents have an explicit goal/requirements/etc around societal good - i have no issues there, the rest of this is about the ones that don't. For unions, overall, their goal is not to help society, it is to protect and help their members. They have no duty to society whatsoever. In the extreme, that ends up bad for anyone not their members. That is, they do everything they can only to get their members more money, more benefits, protect their jobs, etc. This sort of thing comes at a cost too. So they make it harder to fire bad cops, bad teachers, etc. When a municipality or state would be bankrupted by paying pensions, the unions will force them into bankruptcy at a cost to everyone else. The unions will first force them to raise pensions, too, to unpayable levels. The state/municipality has essentially no practical power against its workforce in that situation, so it agrees, again, at a cost to everyone else. The unions of course, do not care about the consequences for anyone else. They want it paid anyway. I have no issue with pushing for a living wage, etc. But again, it's for their members, not for everyone, except where they believe it will generate more union membership. So sum total, they do not care about anyone else. Literally. It's not their job. This is awesome for their members. Horrible for everyone else. So no, it's not irrational. Not everyone wants to group themselves with organizations designed to literally not care about anyone else. Follow the US-style unions to their logical extreme - everyone in society in is a union, divided by job. Yay!? I think that ends very badly for society - you really think the unions won't paint other jobs/unions/etc as the enemy? They do in plenty of cases already! So - i think it will end up the same sort of strong polarization/hate that exists across political affiliation, but across jobs instead. Great.
dunefox 4y ago
Because that would be communism or something.
- Jhjjjjjjjj 4y ago
  Or because large companies routinely shut union factories because it's unprofitable?
- drstewart 4y ago
  Good one. Now explain why unionized European programmers don't get paid nearly the same as un-unionized American ones. Is it because of fascism or something?
  - phabricator 4y ago
    Base salary or total compensation? Do you have any data or reason to believe "unionized European programmers don't get paid nearly the same as un-unionized American ones?"
    - weberer 4y ago
      https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-salary-comparison-country/ https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-s...
      - phabricator 4y ago
        That's just a list of average salary by country. Does it show which of these are "UNIONIZED European programmers" and how many are "NON-UNION Americans?" If not, we can dismiss the claim outright.
        weberer 4y ago
        >If not, we can dismiss the claim outright All you can say at that point is "I'm too lazy to confirm or disprove it". If you want to disprove his statement for real, you're going to have to put in some effort looking things up.
dijonman2 4y ago
Union dues are not insignificant, I would never join a union for that reason unless I had to. Same reason I will never buy a home with a HOA.
Spooky23 4y ago
“Freedom.” is usually the stated reason. Some people feel that they’ll do better negotiating with a multi billion dollar company. Others are unable to think ahead/strategically and focus on the 3% fee or whatever. When you’re working for a company that manages you as tightly as Amazon does, it ridiculous to not have a union, if only for having some recourse with respect to work rules. My wife works for a local government where a bunch of the guys made a big show out of opting out of the union, they regretted that when a new administration came in and started targeting them for petty rule violations - eventually they were all forced out and replaced by cheaper people.
jcims 4y ago
I've worked for Teamsters Local 284 as a loader and unloader for UPS. Everybody talking about Amazon propaganda, you haven't seen anything until you've seen Teamsters propaganda. You feel like you've joined a church, it's ridiculous. And I've never in my life worked at a place where there was an outwardly combative relationship between management and staff. No cooperation whatsoever. I wouldn't go back to the teamsters because it's gross and creates dysfunction. My wife worked for the National Education Association for 15 years. I can't recall a single positive comment that she made about the union. The way the contracts are structured, educators get locked in to their home district after 5-10 years. They are useless for mediating anything but issues that are already written up in the contract and the ability for loafers to coast for the entirety of their career is commonly discussed and real. She would avoid the union because it coddles losers and doesn't lift a finger for staff dealing with real issues. The only partial success story with unions that I'm aware of is with my brother, a lineman for AT&T. He's had that job for almost 30 years (through a variety of telcos ultimately renamed AT&T) and has been a member of the Communication Workers of America. He talks about endless frustration with the union, that the reps are useless and that the contracts they negotiate are terrible. But he does have the ability to tell his management to fuck off if they ask him to do something dangerous (which happens rarely but enough to matter) and he takes advantage of that from time to time. He might re-up for a union, i don't know.

onion_now 4y ago

You'll be happy in one of the "right-to-work" states then. Wonder why they're hit the hardest by the "labor shortage?"

Jhjjjjjjjj 4y ago
Because those states have the lowest unemployment?
- phabricator 4y ago
  Which is good right?! Nope! Labor markets can reach a point where each job added does not create enough productivity to cover its cost, every next job after that is inefficient ("slack"). With an unemployment rate as drastically low as many right to work states, wage inflation becomes a big issue, so companies hire less efficient employees. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-rising-wages-scuttle-the-small-cap-stock-surge-2017-05-12 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-rising-wages-scuttle...
- viraptor 4y ago
  You got me interested, but no. 5/10 states with lowest unemployment are RTW.

boudin 4y ago

Union are not born out of nowhere. Those exists to balance relationships. Most of the work a union does not get publicity but can is really important by ensuring of the well being of employees. Union do not create problems, they just give visibility to problems which are already there. Of course, like everything, some unions takes bad decisions, but that's just a small part of it.