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And they start charging you without telling you directly (by a letter) or getting your consent! First thing I tell everyone moving here is that they should be c

• stavros 4y ago
  But when the New Crusades begin again, guess who'll be the first to go!
  • marcosdumay 4y ago
    There are a few centuries of history telling you what are safe options to put there and what aren't. They won't come for atheists first.
• tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  I don't want to be a devils advocate, but why is it a problem that you paid a church tax? In Germany, members of the church pay for the church service, it is made available to them by the church. It's just how it is, you pay the tax, and then you can marry for free, attend church for free, baptise your children free of charge, ... If you don't want to use or don't need their services, you can always cancel your church membership. It costs one visit to Bürgeramt and a few euros. I am sick of people staying in church and complaining that they should not pay. Before church tax, everyone had to pay through taxes, even people that are not members of catholic or evangelical church, like atheists and members of other confessions. That is immoral. Either pay or leave the church if it is not worth it for you to pay.
  • synotna 4y ago
    Being a member of a church should be opt-in not opt-out - by the individual, not their parents e.g. upon reaching adulthood you are sent an opt-in confirmation If you ignore, you are automatically removed It is absurd that you have to waste your time & money to make an appointment, go to the appointment and on top of that pay to opt-out
    • mytailorisrich 4y ago
      Religion should be a private matter and the state should not be involved at all, and should refuse to get involved.
      • krapp 4y ago
        Religion is too powerful a means of control for states not to involve themselves. Just look at the US - fifty years of secular, progressive law is being toppled like a chain dominoes for the sake of Christian jurisprudence, in what is supposed to be a nation with a separation between church and state.
      • synotna 4y ago
        I agree, alas legacy in society is even harder to get rid of than legacy in software (:
  • 9dev 4y ago
    I'll agree that if you are a member of a church and enjoy church service, you should pay church taxes, too - I'd go even further and say (as an atheist myself) if you're a believer and believe that churches do good things, even if you don't go there often or take advantage of everything that's offered to you, you have an obligation by your very faith to help by paying your share. Then again, I'm completely stumped as to why the government of a secular country (by constitution!) would ever involve so deeply in clerical matters that it would collect taxes for them, free of charge. That system is so dated and out of place for a modern society, I'm not surprised foreigners are very much irritated by it. Another issue is that you have to pay to opt out of being a member obliged to pay the tax. This is not about the amount (~10-60€), but the fact that all children of christian parents end up being church members before they're even old enough to decide for themselves, thus having to pay the tax or pay to opt out. The same applies to foreigners unaware of this. If churches had no tax to rely on, maybe they'd be more engaged to not continually loose members...
    • Swenrekcah 4y ago
      I agree with all you said. A similar system is in place where I live but the best argument I’ve heard in favour of keeping it is simply this: If you take the relatively small state funding away and make the churches seek members to fund themselves, then be prepared that they will go and do just that. We might get American style megachurches with everything that comes with them, real fast. I realise it is an argument based on fear, but oh do I fear it.
      • InCityDreams 4y ago
        I'm up for this - Europe needs mega-churches! There are about forty churches near me...they take turns in rotating the congregations around, so (for example) i get fucked by the traffic every eight weeks, in a five week loop, depending on the particular church. One giant church, also televised or streamed, would be fuckin' A. On the other hand, looking atvthe German modrl, would i have to pay to opt out of the streaming service?
    • nicbou 4y ago
      That's a misunderstanding. Your church decided to task the government with this. The government takes a cut for the trouble. So no, it's not done free of charge.
  • pmoriarty 4y ago
    Why doesn't the government tax churches themselves instead of taxing the members? That way they wouldn't have to collect information on the members' religion. Besides, not every person who is religious even goes to church.. and even if they go, they don't necessarily go every day or even every year of their life. So it makes no sense to tax them unless you could monitor when they go to church. Churches, however, could be taxed on their revenue, which does not invade the privacy of their members.
    • 9dev 4y ago
      No, no, you see: This is not about drawing in taxes from the churches via their members. This is about collecting taxes for the churches, as a service! It's very convenient for them: Don't do anything and get your member fees delivered to your bank account, for free, every month :-)
      • pmoriarty 4y ago
        Why is the government helping churches?
        • Swenrekcah 4y ago
          For historical reasons. The churches used to be much more politically active in the deep past and collected their dues directly. There also wasn’t any sort of safety net provided by the lords of the land, but churches provides some. This has evolved to a system where the church largely stays out of politics and has no direct or official influence, but gets money from the state. This is also helpful for the state to influence the church, for example like with the acceptance of gay marriage.
          • MomoXenosaga 4y ago
            Precisely this. The beautiful buildings in the Vatican are maintained with Bayern money. The German Catholic church needs to be careful not to drive away their tithes with a hateful message. Catholicism in Germany is like a gym membership: nobody shows up but they forget to cancel and keep paying.
  • fmajid 4y ago
    Google "Bishop Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst of Limburg" for why German church members may not want to sponsor simony though their taxes.
  • rawbot 4y ago
    I don't participate in any Church related activities anymore, and have not used any of their services (hospitals, schools, etc.). I have costed the Church in Germany 0€, and yet I have paid several thousand. My creed should not earn me a financial penalty. Specially since they don't tell you about the consequences beforehand.