3 ms·

It wastes productive resources(power, hardware, compute time) on non-productive applications(Ponzi, digital beanie babies, gambling).

mccorrinall 4y ago
Who defines non productive applications? Are movies and video games non productive? Should we stop making entertainment? Should we close down casinos? Why? Why not?
- witheld 4y ago
  The production of genuine art is productive. Also it’s very hard to argue that casinos should exist so that’s kind of a non-starter.
- dontbenebby 4y ago
  I'd argue poker is different than slots, though both are "gambling". I don't know how I feel about things like blackjack or roulette. They can be good networking, good sources of intel, but I hate that casinos make me combine bad decisions (like inhaling smoke in order to be inefficient with my money). And no, don't close down casinos, because people will still gamble, and then they'll be having their legs broken by the mafia rather than chased by debt agencies.
zero_shift 4y ago
It also belches carbon into the atmosphere and inceintivises bad actors to run grifts and Ponzi schemes. It's the negative externality to end all negative externalities.
wruza 4y ago
wastes productive resources … on non-productive applications I do that a lot myself too. If you divide BTC energy by 8 billion humans, it is 0.05kWh per day, correct me if my calc is wrong. I think I waste around 2.8kWh per evening (at home), most of which is non-productive for sure. k=56:1
- Cpoll 4y ago
  Isn't this kind of logic capable of hand-waving anything away? 100 terawatt hours is no joke, if you can make it seem trivial by dividing by 8B that says more about the method than the number.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  8 billion people aren't using BTC, so your denominator doesn't have any sensible meaning. You divide BTC energy by 3 transactions per second.
  - wruza 4y ago
    It does, because mining cost doesn’t scale with a number of users. It is a per-humanity process. The only sensible comparison here is to the average of per-person or per-humanity waste. You divide BTC energy by 3 transactions per second What meaning does that have? An absolute cost of a transaction compared to what?
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      All of humanity can't use Bitcoin if only three people can use it per second. It's an absolute cost per transaction compared to traditional money with banking, which is so cheap to use that it's basically free.
- imtringued 4y ago
  You are counting people that have never used cryptocurrency.
  - dontbenebby 4y ago
    > You are counting people that have never used cryptocurrency. We are people too
horns4lyfe 4y ago
So what are video games? Are we to ban everything not explicitly productive?
- witheld 4y ago
  Video games are fun, fun is a vital human need- video games are productive.
  - horns4lyfe 4y ago
    Crypto is fun for a lot of people too.
- dontbenebby 4y ago
  Why not art in general friend? Why are we so focused on video games? I nearly did an MFA in Creative Nonfiction -- I used to sit in a coffee shop that was eventually gentrified away to become the site of one of the largest banks (out of towners, of course) and read stuff like Truman Capote's "In True Blood" or Vonnegut's "Cat Cradle" as I played with various wifi and bluetooth attacks on my cute little Eee PC that fit into my very unfashionable cargo jorts. I had a privileged position that paid a whole twelve dollars an hour -- enough that unlike my friends, I didn't have to work two or three jobs, and was able to save up to attend my first hacker convention after paying for rent and food. The CFAA has long since expired. And I did each attack once, to learn how, then avoided using them again absent a very good reason to abuse my access. Looking back a decade and a half later, I am not at all sorry for the things I did those mornings over a quad espresso or whatever. Moving on: Being nonproductive is cool and good, but I'm an Epicurean[1], not a hedonist[2] -- you need to balance chasing pleasure with less fun stuff, and the issue seems to be arguments over what I will term "the ratio". (sarcastic finger quotes) or you'll end up addicted to opiate, diabetic, or suffering from some other induced ill that makes you unable to enjoy the simple things in life rather than smoking weed, drinking espresso, and in continual wonder at the joy of knowing how stuff works. //[1] Epicureanism argued that pleasure was the chief good in life.[8] Hence, Epicurus advocated living in such a way as to derive the greatest amount of pleasure possible during one's lifetime, yet doing so moderately in order to avoid the suffering incurred by overindulgence in such pleasure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Philosophy //[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism

mccorrinall 4y ago

Who defines non productive applications? Are movies and video games non productive? Should we stop making entertainment? Should we close down casinos? Why? Why not?

witheld 4y ago
The production of genuine art is productive. Also it’s very hard to argue that casinos should exist so that’s kind of a non-starter.
dontbenebby 4y ago
I'd argue poker is different than slots, though both are "gambling". I don't know how I feel about things like blackjack or roulette. They can be good networking, good sources of intel, but I hate that casinos make me combine bad decisions (like inhaling smoke in order to be inefficient with my money). And no, don't close down casinos, because people will still gamble, and then they'll be having their legs broken by the mafia rather than chased by debt agencies.

zero_shift 4y ago

It also belches carbon into the atmosphere and inceintivises bad actors to run grifts and Ponzi schemes. It's the negative externality to end all negative externalities.

wruza 4y ago

wastes productive resources … on non-productive applications I do that a lot myself too. If you divide BTC energy by 8 billion humans, it is 0.05kWh per day, correct me if my calc is wrong. I think I waste around 2.8kWh per evening (at home), most of which is non-productive for sure. k=56:1

Cpoll 4y ago
Isn't this kind of logic capable of hand-waving anything away? 100 terawatt hours is no joke, if you can make it seem trivial by dividing by 8B that says more about the method than the number.
lern_too_spel 4y ago
8 billion people aren't using BTC, so your denominator doesn't have any sensible meaning. You divide BTC energy by 3 transactions per second.
- wruza 4y ago
  It does, because mining cost doesn’t scale with a number of users. It is a per-humanity process. The only sensible comparison here is to the average of per-person or per-humanity waste. You divide BTC energy by 3 transactions per second What meaning does that have? An absolute cost of a transaction compared to what?
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    All of humanity can't use Bitcoin if only three people can use it per second. It's an absolute cost per transaction compared to traditional money with banking, which is so cheap to use that it's basically free.
imtringued 4y ago
You are counting people that have never used cryptocurrency.
- dontbenebby 4y ago
  > You are counting people that have never used cryptocurrency. We are people too

horns4lyfe 4y ago

So what are video games? Are we to ban everything not explicitly productive?

witheld 4y ago
Video games are fun, fun is a vital human need- video games are productive.
- horns4lyfe 4y ago
  Crypto is fun for a lot of people too.
dontbenebby 4y ago
Why not art in general friend? Why are we so focused on video games? I nearly did an MFA in Creative Nonfiction -- I used to sit in a coffee shop that was eventually gentrified away to become the site of one of the largest banks (out of towners, of course) and read stuff like Truman Capote's "In True Blood" or Vonnegut's "Cat Cradle" as I played with various wifi and bluetooth attacks on my cute little Eee PC that fit into my very unfashionable cargo jorts. I had a privileged position that paid a whole twelve dollars an hour -- enough that unlike my friends, I didn't have to work two or three jobs, and was able to save up to attend my first hacker convention after paying for rent and food. The CFAA has long since expired. And I did each attack once, to learn how, then avoided using them again absent a very good reason to abuse my access. Looking back a decade and a half later, I am not at all sorry for the things I did those mornings over a quad espresso or whatever. Moving on: Being nonproductive is cool and good, but I'm an Epicurean[1], not a hedonist[2] -- you need to balance chasing pleasure with less fun stuff, and the issue seems to be arguments over what I will term "the ratio". (sarcastic finger quotes) or you'll end up addicted to opiate, diabetic, or suffering from some other induced ill that makes you unable to enjoy the simple things in life rather than smoking weed, drinking espresso, and in continual wonder at the joy of knowing how stuff works. //[1] Epicureanism argued that pleasure was the chief good in life.[8] Hence, Epicurus advocated living in such a way as to derive the greatest amount of pleasure possible during one's lifetime, yet doing so moderately in order to avoid the suffering incurred by overindulgence in such pleasure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Philosophy //[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism