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100% agreed > I’m not saying that all those ‘underground fringes’ that Anderson celebrated have disappeared—I’m merely claiming that they have less cultural im

100% agreed > I’m not saying that all those ‘underground fringes’ that Anderson celebrated have disappeared—I’m merely claiming that they have less cultural impact than at almost any point in modern history. The author seems to think about counter culture in terms of large groups like the bohemians and beatniks. Instead, we have an unlimited supply of niche communities people can join. Seems pretty great to me.

soderfoo 4y ago
The author alludes to something that resonated with me. I think the point he is trying to make is that even a lot of independent art is homogenized and tired because its underpinnings are more tied to a hustle-culture mindset than to actually asking something of the experiencer.
Dan_Sylveste 4y ago
>Instead, we have an unlimited supply of niche communities people can join. Seems pretty great to me. I think the issue is with the discoverability of those communities. When they're so small and niche and there are so many of them, discoverability suffers. There's a curation element that's missing and that algorithms driven by / manipulated by commercial pressure don't provide. I don't think we have a modern day replacement for John Peel, for example. We have tons of content (soundcloud etc) but the few people sorting the wheat from the chaff don't seem to be able to muster an audience. The art/talent of curation is much undervalued.
- ivan888 4y ago
  Madjestic Kasual (not to be confused with the much more popular channel which this is a parody of) is a really interesting YouTube channel that does just that; the curator seems to spend a lot of time seeking out independent music of a particular aesthetic and sharing it and has mustered at least some audience. I'd like to collect more channels/aggregations/internet magazines like this
  - Dan_Sylveste 4y ago
    Yeah, that's the idea. Nice channel.
- soylentgraham 4y ago
  Marc Riley continues where John Peel left off. Ezra furman's (guest filling for marc riley) shows also uncover a wealth of stuff, but less Now and more the last 5-10 years
  - Dan_Sylveste 4y ago
    Yeah, on Radio 6, which nobody who isn't a music enthusiast listens to. Peel's show was on R1. That's kinda what I'm saying about discoverability - how does anything get into the mainstream when 'mainstream' and 'up-and-coming' are now strictly segregated? There has to be a bridge connecting the two paths. Maybe I'm just biased but I think it should be the job of the BBC to ram culture down people's necks whether they think they're going to like it or not, because otherwise they'll just listen to the same old crap for their entire lives.
- godelski 4y ago
  > I think the issue is with the discoverability of those communities. Honestly, I think this is why we don't see fatter tails than we see today. Google, YouTube, Netflix, and even Spotify push us into bubbles. Many of us are drawn in because on the exploration/exploitation scale it is high on exploration. But as we use the service more they focus more and more on exploitation. I remember awhile ago reading a blog my netflix (?) how it is actually easier to satisfy customers with wide variety of tastes and love the exploration paradigm. Maybe the next step is to figure out who is who or when someone is in a exploration mood. I'd assume that's common given that everyone jokes about scrolling around on Netflix for 15 minutes only to leave.
  - Dan_Sylveste 4y ago
    >Maybe the next step is to figure out who is who or when someone is in a exploration mood. Why try and read people's minds when you can just make it an option? Half the problem (with so much modern tech) is algorithms trying to 'figure out' stuff like that. Just ask the user. And stop feeding back so much user behaviour into algorithms, it always converges to zero.
    - godelski 4y ago
      I would presume you'd want to have that explore option use different algorithms. When in the exploration situation you still want to narrow down what kinds of topics people want to find and not just a random assortment. You're always going to have to "read people's minds" to some extent because there's too much information and too many options out there. You should probably increase this exploration value as the user continues to scroll. Also, if someone is scrolling and scrolling you'd probably want to increase your exploration hyperparameter as time goes by. So thus we're pretty much automating what is done above by user behavior. You don't really need to read someone's mind because they are already explicitly telling you that what you've presented to them isn't what they are looking for (otherwise they would have clicked it by now). Though, for convenience I think you could find clear patterns in certain behaviors. For example, I'm one of those people that like to fall asleep to a show that I've seen a few times already. It is pretty easy to predict that. You can sure predict that if I'm opening Netflix late at night that I want to watch Star Trek.

soderfoo 4y ago

The author alludes to something that resonated with me. I think the point he is trying to make is that even a lot of independent art is homogenized and tired because its underpinnings are more tied to a hustle-culture mindset than to actually asking something of the experiencer.

Dan_Sylveste 4y ago

>Instead, we have an unlimited supply of niche communities people can join. Seems pretty great to me. I think the issue is with the discoverability of those communities. When they're so small and niche and there are so many of them, discoverability suffers. There's a curation element that's missing and that algorithms driven by / manipulated by commercial pressure don't provide. I don't think we have a modern day replacement for John Peel, for example. We have tons of content (soundcloud etc) but the few people sorting the wheat from the chaff don't seem to be able to muster an audience. The art/talent of curation is much undervalued.

ivan888 4y ago
Madjestic Kasual (not to be confused with the much more popular channel which this is a parody of) is a really interesting YouTube channel that does just that; the curator seems to spend a lot of time seeking out independent music of a particular aesthetic and sharing it and has mustered at least some audience. I'd like to collect more channels/aggregations/internet magazines like this
- Dan_Sylveste 4y ago
  Yeah, that's the idea. Nice channel.
soylentgraham 4y ago
Marc Riley continues where John Peel left off. Ezra furman's (guest filling for marc riley) shows also uncover a wealth of stuff, but less Now and more the last 5-10 years
- Dan_Sylveste 4y ago
  Yeah, on Radio 6, which nobody who isn't a music enthusiast listens to. Peel's show was on R1. That's kinda what I'm saying about discoverability - how does anything get into the mainstream when 'mainstream' and 'up-and-coming' are now strictly segregated? There has to be a bridge connecting the two paths. Maybe I'm just biased but I think it should be the job of the BBC to ram culture down people's necks whether they think they're going to like it or not, because otherwise they'll just listen to the same old crap for their entire lives.
godelski 4y ago
> I think the issue is with the discoverability of those communities. Honestly, I think this is why we don't see fatter tails than we see today. Google, YouTube, Netflix, and even Spotify push us into bubbles. Many of us are drawn in because on the exploration/exploitation scale it is high on exploration. But as we use the service more they focus more and more on exploitation. I remember awhile ago reading a blog my netflix (?) how it is actually easier to satisfy customers with wide variety of tastes and love the exploration paradigm. Maybe the next step is to figure out who is who or when someone is in a exploration mood. I'd assume that's common given that everyone jokes about scrolling around on Netflix for 15 minutes only to leave.
- Dan_Sylveste 4y ago
  >Maybe the next step is to figure out who is who or when someone is in a exploration mood. Why try and read people's minds when you can just make it an option? Half the problem (with so much modern tech) is algorithms trying to 'figure out' stuff like that. Just ask the user. And stop feeding back so much user behaviour into algorithms, it always converges to zero.
  - godelski 4y ago
    I would presume you'd want to have that explore option use different algorithms. When in the exploration situation you still want to narrow down what kinds of topics people want to find and not just a random assortment. You're always going to have to "read people's minds" to some extent because there's too much information and too many options out there. You should probably increase this exploration value as the user continues to scroll. Also, if someone is scrolling and scrolling you'd probably want to increase your exploration hyperparameter as time goes by. So thus we're pretty much automating what is done above by user behavior. You don't really need to read someone's mind because they are already explicitly telling you that what you've presented to them isn't what they are looking for (otherwise they would have clicked it by now). Though, for convenience I think you could find clear patterns in certain behaviors. For example, I'm one of those people that like to fall asleep to a show that I've seen a few times already. It is pretty easy to predict that. You can sure predict that if I'm opening Netflix late at night that I want to watch Star Trek.