9 ms·

The giant hangar poised for an aviation revolution

93 points by clouddrover 4y ago

rootsudo 4y ago
I find it amazing that we can pull headlines from a century ago, and still apply them to today's world.
walrus01 4y ago
somewhat related, does this other lighter than air craft actually have the money to build what they've announced? https://www.hybridairvehicles.com/our-aircraft/airlander-10/ https://www.hybridairvehicles.com/our-aircraft/airlander-10/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Air_Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Air_Vehicles there's also these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Aeros_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Aeros_Corp and there was a lockheed martin semi rigid airship we heard a lot about in like 2014 and almost nothing since then.
Animats 4y ago
Private jets are for the little people. Google's founders first got their own air terminal.[1] Then their own airport.[2] Now, giant airship yachts. [1] https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2017/05/25/signature-flight-support-private-jet-terminal-sjc.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2017/05/25/signatur... [2] https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/nasa-agrees-lease-moffett-airfield-google https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/nasa-agrees-lease-moffett-a...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Pv9KKy3 4y ago
wrycoder 4y ago
John McPhee wrote a fine book on the effort to commercialize lighter than air heavy transport: The Deltoid Pumpkin Seed. I was watching a BBC episode on Africa's geography and its lack of navigable rivers or good harbors, and how that has held back economic development. These airships came to mind as a cheap way to access that continent.
- twoWhlsGud 4y ago
  Yes! Terrific book and a good warning about how hard it is to do this kind of thing...
sputknick 4y ago
Since they don't dive into economic feasibility, I did about 3 minutes worth of googling, and found this paper https://www.temjournal.com/content/93/TEMJournalAugust_1062_1067.pdf https://www.temjournal.com/content/93/TEMJournalAugust_1062_... that basically says its 20% cheaper than an airplane, but takes 5 times as long. where it becomes economically feasible is when carrying heavy cargo, which in my mind would be better handle by rail (they did not give numbers comparing it to rail). My guess is this will turn out to not be economically feasible and only makes sense if the environmental impact is your primary concern, or as another commenter mentioned, if you don't have land infrastructure already built out.
- jamesvnz 4y ago
  Assuming these airships are VTOL and can land on non-runway surfaces (e.g. large open fields) you'd think this would beat airplanes by a lot more than 20% overall as you wouldn't have the additional costs of getting the heavy cargo to the final destination, it could be taken straight where it is needed. So the optimum load would be the long distance delivery of a large, heavy single item in an undeveloped inland area.
  - echelon 4y ago
    The paper doesn't even seem to compare the costs of lifting gasses. If the airships are completely autonomous and you don't care about a small percentage of them exploding (<0.0001%, away from population centers), then hydrogen is orders of magnitude cheaper than helium. A fleet of these could replace truckers before autonomous trucking becomes safe enough to put on the road alongside human drivers. If they're better than rail, you could convert freight trains to commuter or rip up the lines and reclaim the land.
    - scheme271 4y ago
      Yeah, a major issue is that there's a shortage of helium with the supplies being rationed so that enough of it can be conserved for medical and other essential needs. Is there going to be enough to supply these airships at a price that makes it viable?
gumby 4y ago
I think it's shortsighted to think of it as an alternative to conventional aviation. People send freight (and themselves) by plane because it's fast; in the case of cargo it's goods that are so expensive that the speed is worth it. If you're not in a hurry you can use ships, which are quite cheap. The value, IMHO, is in landlocked areas without rail links like Africa and central Asia. These are areas that mostly skipped the landline and went straight to wireless. Airships would be an analogous transition for them possibly even for passengers, though I think of freight.
- echelon 4y ago
  If airship startups stopped trying to make them safe by filling them with precious helium, we could have affordable autonomous bulk cargo transports. If hydrogen airships "explode" at some small rate < 0.0001%, they can stick to transportation corridors away from population centers for the majority of their route to destination. It seems easier to replace a trucking fleet with autonomous hydrogen-powered airships than to have 100% safe self-driving semis operating on the road alongside human drivers.
  - nradov 4y ago
    There might be a niche market for autonomous hydrogen airships in some other countries, but it would be decades before the FAA allowed commercial use anywhere in the USA.
    - worik 4y ago
      Really? Given jets take off in very marginal conditions with tonnes of high octane fuel n their wings. Is the FAA that much of a bigot? The Hindenburg was minor compared to what we regularly see in crashing jets.
      - nradov 4y ago
        Yes really. Hydrogen isn't allowed as a lifting gas. Congress would probably have to pass legislation to allow it. https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting-gas/ https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting... Besides the lifting gas, the previous comment mentioned "autonomous". The FAA also prohibits autonomous aircraft outside some very limited designated airspace. Until that ban is lifted, they can't be used for any real commercial service.
choonway 4y ago
Poised for a breakthrough in luxury travel? ok. i'd accept that. silent and smooth travel (as long as you can avoid inclement weather).
Guthur 4y ago
In ostensibly developed countries we can't get food, fuel or basic medicines yet we're still going on about high tech and green agenda. We need to wake up, the system is fucked by all these agendas, it is painfully obvious if one just looks.
- forum_ghost 4y ago
  >we can't get food, fuel or basic medicines what developed countries cannot get basic medicines?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    America, where insulin [1], epi-pens [2] and a lot of other really REALLY basic but absolutely vital medications have been subject to usurious prices for decades. [1] https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-30/lazarus-healthcare-insulin-prices https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-30/lazarus-he... [2] https://snacksafely.com/2021/09/politics-and-greed-who-benefited-from-the-epipen-price-gouging-scandal/ https://snacksafely.com/2021/09/politics-and-greed-who-benef...
    - dTal 4y ago
      I would add that it's a ridiculous situation where you cannot buy antibiotics over the counter "because of the risk of overuse", yet they are pumped into animals living in squalid conditions en masse.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        Actually, you can... if the stuff is marked as "for fish" [1]. [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-are-americans-taking-fish-antibiotics-180973779/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-are-americans-...
      - nradov 4y ago
        The FDA recognizes that problem and has been tightening restrictions on use OTC antibiotics for animals. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/antimicrobial-resistance https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/antimicr...
woleium 4y ago
I'm guessing the learnings from project loon are in play here. (loon proved that alphabet could 'fly' balloons around with no fuel just by adjusting the altitude, ostensibly as lower-than-space comms relays) If you can move bulk from anywhere to anywhere with (almost) no fuel you are on to a sure winner. iirc the 12 largest ships on the planet produce as much co2 as all the cars.
CptMauli 4y ago
Any article about modern airships, failing to mention CargoLifter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter) is woefully incomplete
joshe 4y ago
Here's an interesting article about the economics, it sounds like Helium won't be economical at scale, because we have so little of it. Hydrogen could work though. https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting-gas/ https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting... Here's a startup focusing on Hydrogen: https://newatlas.com/aircraft/h2clipper-hydrogen-dirigible-cargo/ https://newatlas.com/aircraft/h2clipper-hydrogen-dirigible-c... https://h2clipper.com/faqs/ https://h2clipper.com/faqs/
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  And of course, the reason why we stopped using hydrogen for airships in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster
  - bewo001 4y ago
    The Hindenburg disaster actually shows how safe hydrogen is. Despite the enormous fire, the majority of persons on board survived, and this with 1930s' state of burn treatment. Unlike kerosene flames, hydrogen flames radiate little heat. Hydrogen does not stick to surfaces or people.
    - was_a_dev 4y ago
      While that maybe true, I struggle to see how anyone will be able to market a hydrogen airship against this image https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Hindenburg_disaster.jpg?20120505065859 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Hindenbu...
      - notahacker 4y ago
        I've see quite a few images of heavier than air aircraft in lots of tiny pieces. One of my old colleagues starred in a popular TV series dedicated to air crash investigations, and he was working for a trade publication promoting flight...
      - deleted 4y ago
fhars 4y ago
An aviation revolution, or lots of leisure time activities, like the last of these hangars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort
lqet 4y ago
Nice idea, but others have tried that and failed [0]. If doesn't work, a good plan B is to open a resort in the hangar [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort
- rob74 4y ago
  Yeah, the title of the article immediately made me think of that other company that was "poised for an aviation revolution", but only got as far as building a hangar. LTA Research is lucky that they can use an existing hangar rather than having to build a new one. At airship sizes, that's a pretty big investment.
- arc-in-space 4y ago
  > Nice idea, but others have tried that and failed Thank you for the background; however, "but" is probably not the conjunction you want here, unless you have good reason to believe this can't be done? That wiki page suggests the project was technically sound but ran out of budget. Obviously things tend to fail the first few times you try them, especially when underfunded.
kenneth 4y ago
Maybe a silly question but… why can't we use a vacuum instead of hydrogen or helium to be lighter than air?
- rjmunro 4y ago
  The air pressure would crush your vacuum container - you'd have to make it very strong, which would be both expensive and heavy.
  - euroderf 4y ago
    Some cyberpunk novel or another suggested you could engineer a structure where atoms surround a core of vacuum, making the assembly as a whole lighter than air. Cool idea, altho of course any piece that breaks off will float up into the atmosphere and become a hazard to powered air transport, so it would have to degrade after prolonged exposure to UV.
- aaron695 4y ago
aaron695 4y ago
jka 4y ago
Tangentially-related tourism fact: between 2008 and 2012 it was possible to book airship sightseeing tours in California with Airship Ventures[1]. (not a journey that I've experienced, so I can't answer questions about what it's like - it's just something I read about on the web a few years ago) [1] - https://www.airshipventures.com/ https://www.airshipventures.com/
8bitsrule 4y ago
Maybe as a replacement for the Cruise ship industry?

93 points by clouddrover 4y ago

I find it amazing that we can pull headlines from a century ago, and still apply them to today's world.

somewhat related, does this other lighter than air craft actually have the money to build what they've announced? https://www.hybridairvehicles.com/our-aircraft/airlander-10/ https://www.hybridairvehicles.com/our-aircraft/airlander-10/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Air_Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Air_Vehicles there's also these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Aeros_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Aeros_Corp and there was a lockheed martin semi rigid airship we heard a lot about in like 2014 and almost nothing since then.

Animats 4y ago

Private jets are for the little people. Google's founders first got their own air terminal.[1] Then their own airport.[2] Now, giant airship yachts. [1] https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2017/05/25/signature-flight-support-private-jet-terminal-sjc.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2017/05/25/signatur... [2] https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/nasa-agrees-lease-moffett-airfield-google https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/nasa-agrees-lease-moffett-a...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Pv9KKy3 4y ago

wrycoder 4y ago

John McPhee wrote a fine book on the effort to commercialize lighter than air heavy transport: The Deltoid Pumpkin Seed. I was watching a BBC episode on Africa's geography and its lack of navigable rivers or good harbors, and how that has held back economic development. These airships came to mind as a cheap way to access that continent.

twoWhlsGud 4y ago
Yes! Terrific book and a good warning about how hard it is to do this kind of thing...

sputknick 4y ago

Since they don't dive into economic feasibility, I did about 3 minutes worth of googling, and found this paper https://www.temjournal.com/content/93/TEMJournalAugust_1062_1067.pdf https://www.temjournal.com/content/93/TEMJournalAugust_1062_... that basically says its 20% cheaper than an airplane, but takes 5 times as long. where it becomes economically feasible is when carrying heavy cargo, which in my mind would be better handle by rail (they did not give numbers comparing it to rail). My guess is this will turn out to not be economically feasible and only makes sense if the environmental impact is your primary concern, or as another commenter mentioned, if you don't have land infrastructure already built out.

jamesvnz 4y ago
Assuming these airships are VTOL and can land on non-runway surfaces (e.g. large open fields) you'd think this would beat airplanes by a lot more than 20% overall as you wouldn't have the additional costs of getting the heavy cargo to the final destination, it could be taken straight where it is needed. So the optimum load would be the long distance delivery of a large, heavy single item in an undeveloped inland area.
- echelon 4y ago
  The paper doesn't even seem to compare the costs of lifting gasses. If the airships are completely autonomous and you don't care about a small percentage of them exploding (<0.0001%, away from population centers), then hydrogen is orders of magnitude cheaper than helium. A fleet of these could replace truckers before autonomous trucking becomes safe enough to put on the road alongside human drivers. If they're better than rail, you could convert freight trains to commuter or rip up the lines and reclaim the land.
  - scheme271 4y ago
    Yeah, a major issue is that there's a shortage of helium with the supplies being rationed so that enough of it can be conserved for medical and other essential needs. Is there going to be enough to supply these airships at a price that makes it viable?

gumby 4y ago

I think it's shortsighted to think of it as an alternative to conventional aviation. People send freight (and themselves) by plane because it's fast; in the case of cargo it's goods that are so expensive that the speed is worth it. If you're not in a hurry you can use ships, which are quite cheap. The value, IMHO, is in landlocked areas without rail links like Africa and central Asia. These are areas that mostly skipped the landline and went straight to wireless. Airships would be an analogous transition for them possibly even for passengers, though I think of freight.

echelon 4y ago
If airship startups stopped trying to make them safe by filling them with precious helium, we could have affordable autonomous bulk cargo transports. If hydrogen airships "explode" at some small rate < 0.0001%, they can stick to transportation corridors away from population centers for the majority of their route to destination. It seems easier to replace a trucking fleet with autonomous hydrogen-powered airships than to have 100% safe self-driving semis operating on the road alongside human drivers.
- nradov 4y ago
  There might be a niche market for autonomous hydrogen airships in some other countries, but it would be decades before the FAA allowed commercial use anywhere in the USA.
  - worik 4y ago
    Really? Given jets take off in very marginal conditions with tonnes of high octane fuel n their wings. Is the FAA that much of a bigot? The Hindenburg was minor compared to what we regularly see in crashing jets.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Yes really. Hydrogen isn't allowed as a lifting gas. Congress would probably have to pass legislation to allow it. https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting-gas/ https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting... Besides the lifting gas, the previous comment mentioned "autonomous". The FAA also prohibits autonomous aircraft outside some very limited designated airspace. Until that ban is lifted, they can't be used for any real commercial service.

choonway 4y ago

Poised for a breakthrough in luxury travel? ok. i'd accept that. silent and smooth travel (as long as you can avoid inclement weather).

Guthur 4y ago

In ostensibly developed countries we can't get food, fuel or basic medicines yet we're still going on about high tech and green agenda. We need to wake up, the system is fucked by all these agendas, it is painfully obvious if one just looks.

forum_ghost 4y ago
>we can't get food, fuel or basic medicines what developed countries cannot get basic medicines?
- mschuster91 4y ago
  America, where insulin [1], epi-pens [2] and a lot of other really REALLY basic but absolutely vital medications have been subject to usurious prices for decades. [1] https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-30/lazarus-healthcare-insulin-prices https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-30/lazarus-he... [2] https://snacksafely.com/2021/09/politics-and-greed-who-benefited-from-the-epipen-price-gouging-scandal/ https://snacksafely.com/2021/09/politics-and-greed-who-benef...
  - dTal 4y ago
    I would add that it's a ridiculous situation where you cannot buy antibiotics over the counter "because of the risk of overuse", yet they are pumped into animals living in squalid conditions en masse.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      Actually, you can... if the stuff is marked as "for fish" [1]. [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-are-americans-taking-fish-antibiotics-180973779/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-are-americans-...
    - nradov 4y ago
      The FDA recognizes that problem and has been tightening restrictions on use OTC antibiotics for animals. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/antimicrobial-resistance https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/antimicr...

woleium 4y ago

I'm guessing the learnings from project loon are in play here. (loon proved that alphabet could 'fly' balloons around with no fuel just by adjusting the altitude, ostensibly as lower-than-space comms relays) If you can move bulk from anywhere to anywhere with (almost) no fuel you are on to a sure winner. iirc the 12 largest ships on the planet produce as much co2 as all the cars.

CptMauli 4y ago

Any article about modern airships, failing to mention CargoLifter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter) is woefully incomplete

joshe 4y ago

Here's an interesting article about the economics, it sounds like Helium won't be economical at scale, because we have so little of it. Hydrogen could work though. https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting-gas/ https://www.thecgo.org/benchmark/bring-back-hydrogen-lifting... Here's a startup focusing on Hydrogen: https://newatlas.com/aircraft/h2clipper-hydrogen-dirigible-cargo/ https://newatlas.com/aircraft/h2clipper-hydrogen-dirigible-c... https://h2clipper.com/faqs/ https://h2clipper.com/faqs/

DocTomoe 4y ago
And of course, the reason why we stopped using hydrogen for airships in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster
- bewo001 4y ago
  The Hindenburg disaster actually shows how safe hydrogen is. Despite the enormous fire, the majority of persons on board survived, and this with 1930s' state of burn treatment. Unlike kerosene flames, hydrogen flames radiate little heat. Hydrogen does not stick to surfaces or people.
  - was_a_dev 4y ago
    While that maybe true, I struggle to see how anyone will be able to market a hydrogen airship against this image https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Hindenburg_disaster.jpg?20120505065859 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Hindenbu...
    - notahacker 4y ago
      I've see quite a few images of heavier than air aircraft in lots of tiny pieces. One of my old colleagues starred in a popular TV series dedicated to air crash investigations, and he was working for a trade publication promoting flight...
    - deleted 4y ago

fhars 4y ago

An aviation revolution, or lots of leisure time activities, like the last of these hangars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort

lqet 4y ago

Nice idea, but others have tried that and failed [0]. If doesn't work, a good plan B is to open a resort in the hangar [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort

rob74 4y ago
Yeah, the title of the article immediately made me think of that other company that was "poised for an aviation revolution", but only got as far as building a hangar. LTA Research is lucky that they can use an existing hangar rather than having to build a new one. At airship sizes, that's a pretty big investment.
arc-in-space 4y ago
> Nice idea, but others have tried that and failed Thank you for the background; however, "but" is probably not the conjunction you want here, unless you have good reason to believe this can't be done? That wiki page suggests the project was technically sound but ran out of budget. Obviously things tend to fail the first few times you try them, especially when underfunded.

kenneth 4y ago

Maybe a silly question but… why can't we use a vacuum instead of hydrogen or helium to be lighter than air?

rjmunro 4y ago
The air pressure would crush your vacuum container - you'd have to make it very strong, which would be both expensive and heavy.
- euroderf 4y ago
  Some cyberpunk novel or another suggested you could engineer a structure where atoms surround a core of vacuum, making the assembly as a whole lighter than air. Cool idea, altho of course any piece that breaks off will float up into the atmosphere and become a hazard to powered air transport, so it would have to degrade after prolonged exposure to UV.
aaron695 4y ago

aaron695 4y ago

jka 4y ago

Tangentially-related tourism fact: between 2008 and 2012 it was possible to book airship sightseeing tours in California with Airship Ventures[1]. (not a journey that I've experienced, so I can't answer questions about what it's like - it's just something I read about on the web a few years ago) [1] - https://www.airshipventures.com/ https://www.airshipventures.com/

8bitsrule 4y ago

Maybe as a replacement for the Cruise ship industry?