6 ms·

You know what’s best for you. I’m wondering though if you’ve tried the non-pharmaceutical options already? Daily exercise, time outside, eating healthy, limitin

You know what’s best for you. I’m wondering though if you’ve tried the non-pharmaceutical options already? Daily exercise, time outside, eating healthy, limiting screen time, sleeping well, and all that. A lot of studies have found doing these things to be at least as effective as SSRIs. They can create hormonal and neurochemical changes that are just as strong. Check out some of Andrew Huberman’s podcasts for more on this. I wish you the best in any case with whatever route you take!

guerrilla 4y ago
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  > The point is that a depressed person can't do those things. You seem to have missed that. A depressed person can. The hardest thing for a depressed person is starting. But often when they can start they feel rewarded. But starting is the hardest thing in the world. Then there’s the problem of biological and neurological depression. Medicine doesn’t help with biological depression much if at all.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      > Please don't spread misinformation. You hurt people when you do this. Do you know what pre natal depression is? Anti depressants do not always work. Because it’s not a serotonin issue. Don’t tell me I’m spreading misinformation when I’m literally going through this right now with my wife.
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        philliphaydon 4y ago
        > and some respond to treatment > much if at all Same same. I’ve spoken to more doctors in the past 5 months than I can count on my hands. The conclusion from all of them is that this is biological depression caused by the pregnancy which medicine most likely won’t help, which is also hindered by the fact she’s pregnant and that limits the available treatment. And this is different to, and quote “neurological” depression happening in the brain which would need constant treatment, so we can only manage the anxiety and bide our time till delivery day. What you’re saying is that the doctors and the stuff I’ve read is wrong and medical science doesn’t know what they are taking about.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        > Same same. No, it's not even close to the same. Plenty of depressions of all sorts are even curable and many others are treatable. One has to look into exactly what they have to determine what to do. What you were saying is super fucking dangerous man. The doctors don't think that your wife's antenatal depression will respond to medication. That's all you know. Cut the reset of the fat out before you hurt someone. > I’ve spoken to more doctors in the past 5 months than I can count on my hands. That sounds terrible, but it doesn't matter how many doctors you talk to if you can't understand what they're talking about or they're dumbing it down for you or something. As I said, all depression is biological. The alternative is impossible. Zero depressions are non-biological. That's nonsense and an indicator you don't totally grasp what's going on. Not all psychiatric depression requires constant treatment. Some is long-term but temporary. Some is caused by brain tumors. There's a very wide spectrum of what can be going on and it's not okay to make sweeping generalizations like you're still doing. I'm not saying the doctors are wrong, I'm saying that you didn't fully understand what they said or are not communicating it correctly. I understand you've been through a lot and that you've been doing your research too but you need to tone down your epistemic confidence here and come at this with some humility because you're producing some sentences which are flat out false and others that are nonsensical. I know what you mean now, but I still don't think you do.
    - nostrebored 4y ago
      This comment added nothing. As someone who’s been clinically diagnosed with MDD multiple times, the answer has always been doing more stuff. One of the strongest impacts of SSRIs is on complacency, not motivation. Psychoactive drugs can help, but if energy and motivation are what you’re looking for, why not stimulants? Doing that stuff feels terrible and impossible, but my strategy now is doing activities that create an accountability buddy structure. Most group activities lend themselves to this. Some give you it for free: try going to a CrossFit class and asking someone for their number and to see if they can text you the next time they’re working out.
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        The comment added that those statements of his are false. His statements are in complete ignorance of anhedonia, for example, and as you said yourself "feeling terrible." I addressed the rest of what you said in other comments. If you're currently able to do CrossFit though, then I would never refer to you as or consider you to be currently depressed.
        philliphaydon 4y ago
        So you say that depression prevents people from doing anything at all, period. If that's the case then you're spreading misinformation. Plenty of people who suffer from depression are able to do things.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        Pretty big leap between doing anything at all and CrossFit, right? As I said elsewhere, of course exercise helps, but if they can't do that they it can't help and many people can't. Presumably, if they could, they would. Suggesting CrossFit as a starting point is insane nonsense.
        PJFSXESBSZNI 4y ago
        Hi! I realize people are trying to help by suggesting things they've seen work before. It's usually best to approach this with sensitivity. Sometimes depression resists treatment. The interventions that work can vary. Some cases may need electroconvulsive therapy or deep-brain stimulation-based treatments. Many issues can converge on the loose collection of symptoms we call "Depression". Different cures for different causes: Increasing activity. Resolving adverse life circumstances. Modifying hormonal states. Modifying nutritional states. Reducing inflammation. Curing an underlying physical illness. Ending a relationship. Starting a new relationship. Spiritual council or practice. Travelling. Taking SSRIs. Taking certain supplements. Ketamine. LSD. Taking MAOIs. Taking mood stabilizers. Climbing out of poverty. Moving to a new town. Ending a toxic relationship. Prescription amphetamines. Getting a sex change. Electroconvulsive therapy. Deep brain stimulation. Transcraial magnetic stimulation. Trauma therapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy. Occupational therapy. Everyone: What has helped for you?
- danenania 4y ago
  You seem to have missed that I was asking a question. I’m aware that low energy is a symptom of depression, but it doesn’t always render a person incapable of taking any of these steps. I think that some people who are in a bad place don’t know that these ‘natural’ remedies can change someone’s brain chemistry as dramatically as drugs do. Perhaps knowing this can help provide the motivation to try. Antidepressants can have some unpleasant side effects and can be hard to get off of, so it’s worth trying alternatives first imho. But of course the best solution depends on the person and their unique situation.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > You seem to have missed that I was asking a question. No, I didn't. Your question presumes that doing such things are possible and they are likely not. > I’m aware that low energy is a symptom of depression, but it doesn’t always render a person incapable of taking any of these steps. You are misinformed. It often does. > I think that some people who are in a bad place don’t know that these ‘natural’ remedies, especially when stacking them, can change someone’s mental state as powerfully as drugs do. Perhaps knowing this can help provide the motivation to try. Yeah, this is harmful psuedo-scientific thinking. Yes, those things can change them, but again, your assumption is faulty. They cannot change them if they cannot be enacted, which depression often prevents from happening. > Antidepressants can have some unpleasant side effects, so it’s worth trying alternatives first imho. But of course the best solution depends on the person and their unique situation. Yeah, they're terrible. That doesn't make your suggestions useful or insightful. Your posts amounts to "Have you tried not being depressed?" which is frankly insulting. Not only that, but you insult their and everyone they know's intelligence by thinking you could be the first one to think of these basic things (the same things advertised everywhere.)
    - danenania 4y ago
      I say “it doesn’t always”. You reply “it often does”. Seems like you’re just looking to argue. Frankly, I don’t really care whether you find my question or my suggestions useful. They weren’t meant for you.
atlas_hugged 4y ago
I’m so tired of hearing people say this as if we haven’t already googled every non-medical intervention imaginable before resorting to meds. Nobody wants to be on meds their whole life. Nobody. Why do people always assume I and others like me “took the easy way out” and always say “well did you just try exercise/sunlight/chakra/insertdietyhere??” Before I finally got a doctor that could help I was tormented by people like you because I thought I wasn’t good enough. Everyone else does these things and they’re “cured.” Why can’t I do it? Their response every single time was disbelief. “You’re just not trying hard enough.” Just. Just. Just. Just. I’ve grown to hate that word. People that say it tend to enjoy being dismissive of real problems. I honestly don’t care to look thru your comment history, but I know the odds are pretty high I’ll see that language over and over… The thing is, my experience isn’t even unique. It’s super common. Yet there’s always people like you that try their best to make us feel like we aren’t doing enough and it’s our own fault. The odds are the person you’re talking to is not a complete and total idiot and they already tried everything up to and sometimes including shoving Gwyneth Paltrow “healing crystals” up their vagina before trying meds. I’m incredibly fortunate medication was able to sort of help. I can at least tolerate life and be somewhat hopeful for my future. Not everyone is so lucky. My brother, for instance, is suffering from treatment resistant depression. My family are all trying to figure out how to help him before it’s too late. If I heard you or anyone say “did you just try exercising” to him in my presence, I’d find it exceedingly difficult to not break your nose, because I know how much that kind of talk will make him bed-ridden and suicidal.
- danenania 4y ago
  Honestly, I’m just sharing this stuff because I deal with depression too and it has helped me more than anything else, including SSRIs—I tried one years ago and found it to be worse than the depression. For me learning about the biochemistry involved really helped it click to the point that I was able to change some negative habits. I realize that what works for me won’t work for everyone, but it might for some. I’m by no means trying to imply anything negative about anyone who concludes that pharmaceuticals are the best (or only) option for them. I sincerely wish both you and your brother the best.
  - 4y ago
headsoup 4y ago
The fact anti-depressants have such serious potential side-effects should mean anyone considering them is at least hopefully fully informed and has exhausted other options. I'm sure many people find it insulting to have such 'obvious' solutions proposed, but you don't know who it might be helpful for.
- danenania 4y ago
  I think a lot of people know these things can help, but brush them off as serious options. Like they see them as homeopathic cures or folk wisdom vs. antidepressants being the real deal medical option. Add that changing habits is difficult, and people tend to dismiss the non-pharmaceutical options before giving them an honest try. It's hard to put the effort in if you're skeptical it's even going to help at all. Learning about the science behind it might change this perspective. For example, staying up until 3am looking at your phone or computer screen will mess with your hormone levels as much as if you took steroids. If you're doing this regularly and suffering from depression, there's a much simpler and more scientifically proven treatment available to you than an SSRI. While it does require more effort to change habits than taking a pill does, it's also more likely to make you feel better.
new_newbie 4y ago
There's a point where you're so broken that it's really not reasonable to build those again. For reference, I got into this position by doing a 30 week natural bodybuilding prep. I've done a variety of extreme physical feats including watercutting 16lbs over a day and all the others that come with wrestling too. All of these demand extreme willpower and discipline to the point of being considered indoctrination. If I detailed these things or shared pictures, no one would doubt I'm capable of building habits or routines normally. Right now I struggle to get myself to cook breakfast. In my scenario, where I don't have lifelong clinical depression, low dosing antidepressants as a crutch to build out of the hole is viable. For others (i.e. people who have attempted suicide as teenagers), it's kinda a necessity. Depression and anxiety is on a spectrum as well, and it goes very deep sometimes. And to follow-up, I did try those suggestions. Good, natural sleep helps the most and gives me the best emotional stability I've had recently. Unfortunately it's not enough. I've been trying to build for months now and I'm still nowhere. To put it another way, there are a myriad of ways to increase testosterone levels besides using TRT. Many of those methods are the same you suggest. However, if you're castrated... it ain't gonna do anything. A parallel with neurotransmitters exists (i.e. serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, ...) and I don't believe I am quite in that boat yet but there are many who are. My ex girlfriend attempted suicide at 11 and 18, and has successfully used prozac with, fortunately, no side-effects For sub-clinical depression, I firmly believe you're correct and building those habits goes a long way.
- danenania 4y ago
  Makes sense. Sounds like you’ve thought it through and tried the other options. I hope the meds help.

guerrilla 4y ago

philliphaydon 4y ago
> The point is that a depressed person can't do those things. You seem to have missed that. A depressed person can. The hardest thing for a depressed person is starting. But often when they can start they feel rewarded. But starting is the hardest thing in the world. Then there’s the problem of biological and neurological depression. Medicine doesn’t help with biological depression much if at all.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    > Please don't spread misinformation. You hurt people when you do this. Do you know what pre natal depression is? Anti depressants do not always work. Because it’s not a serotonin issue. Don’t tell me I’m spreading misinformation when I’m literally going through this right now with my wife.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      - philliphaydon 4y ago
        > and some respond to treatment > much if at all Same same. I’ve spoken to more doctors in the past 5 months than I can count on my hands. The conclusion from all of them is that this is biological depression caused by the pregnancy which medicine most likely won’t help, which is also hindered by the fact she’s pregnant and that limits the available treatment. And this is different to, and quote “neurological” depression happening in the brain which would need constant treatment, so we can only manage the anxiety and bide our time till delivery day. What you’re saying is that the doctors and the stuff I’ve read is wrong and medical science doesn’t know what they are taking about.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        > Same same. No, it's not even close to the same. Plenty of depressions of all sorts are even curable and many others are treatable. One has to look into exactly what they have to determine what to do. What you were saying is super fucking dangerous man. The doctors don't think that your wife's antenatal depression will respond to medication. That's all you know. Cut the reset of the fat out before you hurt someone. > I’ve spoken to more doctors in the past 5 months than I can count on my hands. That sounds terrible, but it doesn't matter how many doctors you talk to if you can't understand what they're talking about or they're dumbing it down for you or something. As I said, all depression is biological. The alternative is impossible. Zero depressions are non-biological. That's nonsense and an indicator you don't totally grasp what's going on. Not all psychiatric depression requires constant treatment. Some is long-term but temporary. Some is caused by brain tumors. There's a very wide spectrum of what can be going on and it's not okay to make sweeping generalizations like you're still doing. I'm not saying the doctors are wrong, I'm saying that you didn't fully understand what they said or are not communicating it correctly. I understand you've been through a lot and that you've been doing your research too but you need to tone down your epistemic confidence here and come at this with some humility because you're producing some sentences which are flat out false and others that are nonsensical. I know what you mean now, but I still don't think you do.
  - nostrebored 4y ago
    This comment added nothing. As someone who’s been clinically diagnosed with MDD multiple times, the answer has always been doing more stuff. One of the strongest impacts of SSRIs is on complacency, not motivation. Psychoactive drugs can help, but if energy and motivation are what you’re looking for, why not stimulants? Doing that stuff feels terrible and impossible, but my strategy now is doing activities that create an accountability buddy structure. Most group activities lend themselves to this. Some give you it for free: try going to a CrossFit class and asking someone for their number and to see if they can text you the next time they’re working out.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      The comment added that those statements of his are false. His statements are in complete ignorance of anhedonia, for example, and as you said yourself "feeling terrible." I addressed the rest of what you said in other comments. If you're currently able to do CrossFit though, then I would never refer to you as or consider you to be currently depressed.
      - philliphaydon 4y ago
        So you say that depression prevents people from doing anything at all, period. If that's the case then you're spreading misinformation. Plenty of people who suffer from depression are able to do things.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        Pretty big leap between doing anything at all and CrossFit, right? As I said elsewhere, of course exercise helps, but if they can't do that they it can't help and many people can't. Presumably, if they could, they would. Suggesting CrossFit as a starting point is insane nonsense.
        PJFSXESBSZNI 4y ago
        Hi! I realize people are trying to help by suggesting things they've seen work before. It's usually best to approach this with sensitivity. Sometimes depression resists treatment. The interventions that work can vary. Some cases may need electroconvulsive therapy or deep-brain stimulation-based treatments. Many issues can converge on the loose collection of symptoms we call "Depression". Different cures for different causes: Increasing activity. Resolving adverse life circumstances. Modifying hormonal states. Modifying nutritional states. Reducing inflammation. Curing an underlying physical illness. Ending a relationship. Starting a new relationship. Spiritual council or practice. Travelling. Taking SSRIs. Taking certain supplements. Ketamine. LSD. Taking MAOIs. Taking mood stabilizers. Climbing out of poverty. Moving to a new town. Ending a toxic relationship. Prescription amphetamines. Getting a sex change. Electroconvulsive therapy. Deep brain stimulation. Transcraial magnetic stimulation. Trauma therapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy. Occupational therapy. Everyone: What has helped for you?
danenania 4y ago
You seem to have missed that I was asking a question. I’m aware that low energy is a symptom of depression, but it doesn’t always render a person incapable of taking any of these steps. I think that some people who are in a bad place don’t know that these ‘natural’ remedies can change someone’s brain chemistry as dramatically as drugs do. Perhaps knowing this can help provide the motivation to try. Antidepressants can have some unpleasant side effects and can be hard to get off of, so it’s worth trying alternatives first imho. But of course the best solution depends on the person and their unique situation.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > You seem to have missed that I was asking a question. No, I didn't. Your question presumes that doing such things are possible and they are likely not. > I’m aware that low energy is a symptom of depression, but it doesn’t always render a person incapable of taking any of these steps. You are misinformed. It often does. > I think that some people who are in a bad place don’t know that these ‘natural’ remedies, especially when stacking them, can change someone’s mental state as powerfully as drugs do. Perhaps knowing this can help provide the motivation to try. Yeah, this is harmful psuedo-scientific thinking. Yes, those things can change them, but again, your assumption is faulty. They cannot change them if they cannot be enacted, which depression often prevents from happening. > Antidepressants can have some unpleasant side effects, so it’s worth trying alternatives first imho. But of course the best solution depends on the person and their unique situation. Yeah, they're terrible. That doesn't make your suggestions useful or insightful. Your posts amounts to "Have you tried not being depressed?" which is frankly insulting. Not only that, but you insult their and everyone they know's intelligence by thinking you could be the first one to think of these basic things (the same things advertised everywhere.)
  - danenania 4y ago
    I say “it doesn’t always”. You reply “it often does”. Seems like you’re just looking to argue. Frankly, I don’t really care whether you find my question or my suggestions useful. They weren’t meant for you.

atlas_hugged 4y ago

I’m so tired of hearing people say this as if we haven’t already googled every non-medical intervention imaginable before resorting to meds. Nobody wants to be on meds their whole life. Nobody. Why do people always assume I and others like me “took the easy way out” and always say “well did you just try exercise/sunlight/chakra/insertdietyhere??” Before I finally got a doctor that could help I was tormented by people like you because I thought I wasn’t good enough. Everyone else does these things and they’re “cured.” Why can’t I do it? Their response every single time was disbelief. “You’re just not trying hard enough.” Just. Just. Just. Just. I’ve grown to hate that word. People that say it tend to enjoy being dismissive of real problems. I honestly don’t care to look thru your comment history, but I know the odds are pretty high I’ll see that language over and over… The thing is, my experience isn’t even unique. It’s super common. Yet there’s always people like you that try their best to make us feel like we aren’t doing enough and it’s our own fault. The odds are the person you’re talking to is not a complete and total idiot and they already tried everything up to and sometimes including shoving Gwyneth Paltrow “healing crystals” up their vagina before trying meds. I’m incredibly fortunate medication was able to sort of help. I can at least tolerate life and be somewhat hopeful for my future. Not everyone is so lucky. My brother, for instance, is suffering from treatment resistant depression. My family are all trying to figure out how to help him before it’s too late. If I heard you or anyone say “did you just try exercising” to him in my presence, I’d find it exceedingly difficult to not break your nose, because I know how much that kind of talk will make him bed-ridden and suicidal.

danenania 4y ago
Honestly, I’m just sharing this stuff because I deal with depression too and it has helped me more than anything else, including SSRIs—I tried one years ago and found it to be worse than the depression. For me learning about the biochemistry involved really helped it click to the point that I was able to change some negative habits. I realize that what works for me won’t work for everyone, but it might for some. I’m by no means trying to imply anything negative about anyone who concludes that pharmaceuticals are the best (or only) option for them. I sincerely wish both you and your brother the best.
- 4y ago

headsoup 4y ago

The fact anti-depressants have such serious potential side-effects should mean anyone considering them is at least hopefully fully informed and has exhausted other options. I'm sure many people find it insulting to have such 'obvious' solutions proposed, but you don't know who it might be helpful for.

danenania 4y ago
I think a lot of people know these things can help, but brush them off as serious options. Like they see them as homeopathic cures or folk wisdom vs. antidepressants being the real deal medical option. Add that changing habits is difficult, and people tend to dismiss the non-pharmaceutical options before giving them an honest try. It's hard to put the effort in if you're skeptical it's even going to help at all. Learning about the science behind it might change this perspective. For example, staying up until 3am looking at your phone or computer screen will mess with your hormone levels as much as if you took steroids. If you're doing this regularly and suffering from depression, there's a much simpler and more scientifically proven treatment available to you than an SSRI. While it does require more effort to change habits than taking a pill does, it's also more likely to make you feel better.

new_newbie 4y ago

There's a point where you're so broken that it's really not reasonable to build those again. For reference, I got into this position by doing a 30 week natural bodybuilding prep. I've done a variety of extreme physical feats including watercutting 16lbs over a day and all the others that come with wrestling too. All of these demand extreme willpower and discipline to the point of being considered indoctrination. If I detailed these things or shared pictures, no one would doubt I'm capable of building habits or routines normally. Right now I struggle to get myself to cook breakfast. In my scenario, where I don't have lifelong clinical depression, low dosing antidepressants as a crutch to build out of the hole is viable. For others (i.e. people who have attempted suicide as teenagers), it's kinda a necessity. Depression and anxiety is on a spectrum as well, and it goes very deep sometimes. And to follow-up, I did try those suggestions. Good, natural sleep helps the most and gives me the best emotional stability I've had recently. Unfortunately it's not enough. I've been trying to build for months now and I'm still nowhere. To put it another way, there are a myriad of ways to increase testosterone levels besides using TRT. Many of those methods are the same you suggest. However, if you're castrated... it ain't gonna do anything. A parallel with neurotransmitters exists (i.e. serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, ...) and I don't believe I am quite in that boat yet but there are many who are. My ex girlfriend attempted suicide at 11 and 18, and has successfully used prozac with, fortunately, no side-effects For sub-clinical depression, I firmly believe you're correct and building those habits goes a long way.

danenania 4y ago
Makes sense. Sounds like you’ve thought it through and tried the other options. I hope the meds help.