6 ms·

The profits that went to a few human owners of that agribusiness should be clawed back

madboston 4y ago
But everyone will die with happy thoughts of making those few rich.
pessimizer 4y ago
That won't put the water back. Revenge is just the final form of prioritizing the comfort (or discomfort) of a handful of bad actors over the well-being of the other 99.9999% of the world. There's no answer except functioning government and the general eradication of solipsistic liberal/libertarian fantasies, and that's never going to happen.
- rexpop 4y ago
  > That won't put the water back. No, but it will partially compensate for impacted communities' subsequent economic precarity.
- sumy23 4y ago
  > That won't put the water back. Revenge is just the final form of prioritizing the comfort (or discomfort) of a handful of bad actors over the well-being of the other 99.9999% of the world. Punishing the perpetrators won’t put the water back in the same way punishing a murderer won’t bring the victim back. We don’t punish to make right. We punish to deter.
  - robocat 4y ago
    And in 20 years time, it will be your turn to be retroactively punished for currently belonging to a society that is burning the world?
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      1) It's not group membership, it's targetted 2) I try to live in such a way that I'm not a wasteful glutton who misuses communal resources.
      - chii 4y ago
        it might be that you get punished despite trying to live properly as you claim in 2). Punishment doesn't work in this context, since it's not a repeated game. Murder is punished because everyone has the chance to do murder - it's a "repeated" game. Destroying the environment isn't.
        HWR_14 4y ago
        Destroying various environmental resources is completely a repeated game (for example, look at superfund sites). If in the future it's decided that I made my money unethically and it needs to be redistributed, I guess I'm fine with that so long as the same standard is applied to everyone's money. I think it'll be close to a great reset, but whatever. I'm not thrilled by the idea, but it might have to happen.
        Schroedingersat 4y ago
        Exploiting and destroying the commons is a repeated game. Moreover the spoils of doing it once make it easier to do so again. What possible reason is there not to take those spoils and return them to the commons from whence they were stolen?
    - TomSwirly 4y ago
      If the people who are destroying our biosphere thought they would face appropriate consequences, they would behave very differently.
      - strogonoff 4y ago
        Bad motives will find their way. Punishment is not a sustainable measure, it only fosters more bad motives, and rules used to justify the punishment inform malicious actors on how to not get caught (a.k.a. how to follow the letter but not the spirit). To address the root cause, work out why bad motives exist (what compels people to violate the spirit in the first place) and eliminate those.
  - csomar 4y ago
    Are you suggesting the farmers are criminal? Unless they subverted the democratic institutions to benefit from bedrock water, punishing them IS the crime.
    - kristopolous 4y ago
      > Are you suggesting the farmers are criminal? Yes! Enthusiastically, with vigor!
    - singularity2001 4y ago
      under that definition the upper echelons of nestle are pretty certain to be criminals, so yes
      - jessaustin 4y ago
        You're right about executives of large firms, but you're wrong about farmers. Focusing on punishment for random small powerless people, most of whom are not still alive, while not assassinating every billionaire is what they want you to do.

But everyone will die with happy thoughts of making those few rich.

That won't put the water back. Revenge is just the final form of prioritizing the comfort (or discomfort) of a handful of bad actors over the well-being of the other 99.9999% of the world. There's no answer except functioning government and the general eradication of solipsistic liberal/libertarian fantasies, and that's never going to happen.

rexpop 4y ago
> That won't put the water back. No, but it will partially compensate for impacted communities' subsequent economic precarity.
sumy23 4y ago
> That won't put the water back. Revenge is just the final form of prioritizing the comfort (or discomfort) of a handful of bad actors over the well-being of the other 99.9999% of the world. Punishing the perpetrators won’t put the water back in the same way punishing a murderer won’t bring the victim back. We don’t punish to make right. We punish to deter.
- robocat 4y ago
  And in 20 years time, it will be your turn to be retroactively punished for currently belonging to a society that is burning the world?
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    1) It's not group membership, it's targetted 2) I try to live in such a way that I'm not a wasteful glutton who misuses communal resources.
    - chii 4y ago
      it might be that you get punished despite trying to live properly as you claim in 2). Punishment doesn't work in this context, since it's not a repeated game. Murder is punished because everyone has the chance to do murder - it's a "repeated" game. Destroying the environment isn't.
      - HWR_14 4y ago
        Destroying various environmental resources is completely a repeated game (for example, look at superfund sites). If in the future it's decided that I made my money unethically and it needs to be redistributed, I guess I'm fine with that so long as the same standard is applied to everyone's money. I think it'll be close to a great reset, but whatever. I'm not thrilled by the idea, but it might have to happen.
      - Schroedingersat 4y ago
        Exploiting and destroying the commons is a repeated game. Moreover the spoils of doing it once make it easier to do so again. What possible reason is there not to take those spoils and return them to the commons from whence they were stolen?
  - TomSwirly 4y ago
    If the people who are destroying our biosphere thought they would face appropriate consequences, they would behave very differently.
    - strogonoff 4y ago
      Bad motives will find their way. Punishment is not a sustainable measure, it only fosters more bad motives, and rules used to justify the punishment inform malicious actors on how to not get caught (a.k.a. how to follow the letter but not the spirit). To address the root cause, work out why bad motives exist (what compels people to violate the spirit in the first place) and eliminate those.
- csomar 4y ago
  Are you suggesting the farmers are criminal? Unless they subverted the democratic institutions to benefit from bedrock water, punishing them IS the crime.
  - kristopolous 4y ago
    > Are you suggesting the farmers are criminal? Yes! Enthusiastically, with vigor!
  - singularity2001 4y ago
    under that definition the upper echelons of nestle are pretty certain to be criminals, so yes
    - jessaustin 4y ago
      You're right about executives of large firms, but you're wrong about farmers. Focusing on punishment for random small powerless people, most of whom are not still alive, while not assassinating every billionaire is what they want you to do.