7 ms·

In the early internet days, when I was young and learning HTML, the book I used to learn recommended asking permission to link to a website. I thought that was

In the early internet days, when I was young and learning HTML, the book I used to learn recommended asking permission to link to a website. I thought that was weird, but I was a rule follower then. So I, a kid, sent a message to the 'webmaster' of a local government site and dutifully asked permission to link to their home page. The said no. If I'm ever a super-villain, I'm using this as my origin story.

WalterBright 4y ago
On the other hand, I've consistently found you can often get what you want just by asking for it. A lot of people seem unwilling to do this.
- megablast 4y ago
  Thanks for all the examples.
- zarmin 4y ago
  On the other other hand, ask for forgiveness not permission.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    More than one person has come to me with a story that they'd developed a side project without notifying their employer, and now that it was done and they were distributing it were worried their employer was going to claim ownership. I didn't have anything helpful to say. I've done side projects when I was working for Big Corps, but in every case notified management beforehand and got a written ok. Never had any trouble with it. When I've accepted job offers, I'd also provide a list of projects that were mine and had them sign off on it as a condition of employment. Never encountered any resistance to that, either. But these poor people were sweating bullets imagining all the bad consequences of their employer finding out. Just ask, in advance. If you're a valuable employee, they'll say ok. Never heard of one saying no. And they'll appreciate that you asked instead of sneaking around. But be careful not to use company equipment.
    - zarmin 4y ago
      How about, thoroughly read your employment agreement (and everything you sign). > Just ask, in advance. If you're a valuable employee That is a massive, massive if.
      - krick 4y ago
        Yeah, well, no. Realistically no one ever will fight or most likely even decline a good job offer over a typical employment contract, and no employer will ever change a typical employment contract specially for you, unless you are somehow preemptively assumed to be a very valuable employee, in which case you are most likely being hired for some very high-level (like, executive) position, so your contract isn't "typical" to start with. And this is far less likely than actually becoming a valuable employee just by doing your quite ordinary job for a few years. You might as well recommend fighting over your gym membership contract, of a bank contract, or a telecom operator contract. Right, it's your free choice, uh-huh. Either you accept it as is, or you go fuck yourself and workout at home, without internet, looking for a job where you'll be paid in cash (which also is far from being common). Again, unless you are preemptively perceived to be a very special customer (i.e. "expected to bring in a lot of money"), in which case your contract probably isn't typical to start with. And it is most likely your lawyer who negotiates over it for you anyway.
        flir 4y ago
        I must have had half a dozen contracts tweaked over the course of my career. Small things, of course, like making IP rights more explicit and changing notice periods. I can assure you I'm not that valuable. Weird.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Saying a contract is "non-negotiable" is just another negotiating tactic. They're all negotiable.
        WalterBright 4y ago
  - hodgesrm 4y ago
    It's a little more nuanced than that. Developing home nuclear reactors is an example where the approach might not benefit society at large. Edit: Comment is off-topic but I've heard this phrase so many times it's triggering.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - strix_varius 4y ago
    I would generally say, "ask for forgiveness not permission if you'll be fine walking back your decision later." Forgiveness often makes sense at work, at least for software engineers, and for modest decisions. Do things the way you think is best instead of getting blocked for weeks looking for permission. If, later on, someone comes knocking and wanting to change it, fine, whatever. However, taking the "forgiveness" route with more important / harder to change / expensive things - like building some addition to your house, building a software business separate your software job - is a recipe for disaster.
- GeertB 4y ago
  In particular, if you're developing Free Software or Open Source Software, and a company wants to hire you, it is _expected_ that they're OK with you continuing to do so. If any contract says otherwise, explain that you need to keep doing what you're doing in order to stay at the level of expertise that you're at. If a future employer would not agree for you to keep doing that, you shouldn't sign.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    It's best to write down what you expect and get agreement on important matters like this.
  - basicplus2 4y ago
    I find that if you simply change the wording of their contract to what you are happy with, initial all your changes, sign all pages, sign it, photocopy it, and send it in, nobody rejects it. Later when they try to hold you to the original contract, you simply ask them for the contract you signed.. This has worked for me everytime :)
    - dottedmag 4y ago
      Wait until contracts start to come in DocuSign, where the only thing you can do is to scribe something obscene instead of a signature.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        There is no way I will every use DocuSign. Think about it: the chances in the longer term of DocuSign being hacked approach '1', and that means that everybody that ever uploaded their signature to that site runs the risk of having other documents signed with that signature without the recourse that it wasn't them uploading their sig to some online service. And then there is this: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/commercial-business/practice/2019/electronic-signatures-contracts-agreements/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/com...
- tialaramex 4y ago
  It definitely doesn't hurt to ask questions, even if you don't always get answers Many years ago I asked my employer why my salary was lower than the contractually agreed minimum salary for 21 year olds in their organisation. I never received a reply but I did receive a raise and pay backdated to the point where I was hired. Years before that I asked my bank why I can't just use all the ATMs since they all have money in them and they're all connected to the same network. I never received a reply but some years later the ATMs were indeed all usable (of course, subsequently many began to charge money for withdrawals, so it's still worth going to the "right" ATM if you care) More recently I asked my bank if they can avoid giving me a contactless capable credit card when they issue new cards. At first they said this was impossible, but when time came to renew my card and I mentioned being disappointed that it would now be contactless, the call taker said actually she can do that, she'll cancel the renewed card she's just had issued and send me one without contactless, but it will take a few days. That card expired, and a few months ago I received its automatic replacement, this time it does have the contactless logo like all the others, but it came with a slim "Contactless-less" sheet explaining that the bank noticed I don't want a contactless card and have told this card not to allow contactless transactions despite the logo however, it is actually a contactless card and so if I change my mind I can just call the bank and activate the contactless feature. [ You might wonder why I don't want a contactless card. Contactless credit cards can OK modestly sized payments based on proximity, which is convenient but clearly poses a risk of fraud I don't want. My phone is also capable of proximity based transactions, but it is not limited to some arbitrary size of transaction and I need to explicitly unlock it to allow the transaction. So, the phone "is" my credit card for the purposes of routine transactions, but it has better security. ]
  - exabrial 4y ago
    I'd read up on how the protocol works... There could be a live "relay" attack available , but it's not like someone could just swipe your butt and make a bunch of cloned cards. The magstripe is more of a hazard than anything else as it the numbers on the front un-encrpyted.
    - tialaramex 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jhgb 4y ago
> the book I used to learn recommended asking permission to link to a website. I thought that was weird You thought correctly. You should have read a book written by someone smarter. Imagine a world where you'd have to ask book writers if you're allowed to cite or to refer to their books in yours.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  It easy to say that in hindsight but it wasn’t that unusual of advice in the early days of the web (which is when the GP is describing). The web (and internet as a whole) was a very different playground to what it is now. In fact you only have to look at how trusting early internet protocols were and all the bolted on hacks we’ve needed since to see the change (eg SMTP, FTP etc all have security as an afterthought).

WalterBright 4y ago

On the other hand, I've consistently found you can often get what you want just by asking for it. A lot of people seem unwilling to do this.

megablast 4y ago
Thanks for all the examples.
zarmin 4y ago
On the other other hand, ask for forgiveness not permission.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  More than one person has come to me with a story that they'd developed a side project without notifying their employer, and now that it was done and they were distributing it were worried their employer was going to claim ownership. I didn't have anything helpful to say. I've done side projects when I was working for Big Corps, but in every case notified management beforehand and got a written ok. Never had any trouble with it. When I've accepted job offers, I'd also provide a list of projects that were mine and had them sign off on it as a condition of employment. Never encountered any resistance to that, either. But these poor people were sweating bullets imagining all the bad consequences of their employer finding out. Just ask, in advance. If you're a valuable employee, they'll say ok. Never heard of one saying no. And they'll appreciate that you asked instead of sneaking around. But be careful not to use company equipment.
  - zarmin 4y ago
    How about, thoroughly read your employment agreement (and everything you sign). > Just ask, in advance. If you're a valuable employee That is a massive, massive if.
    - krick 4y ago
      Yeah, well, no. Realistically no one ever will fight or most likely even decline a good job offer over a typical employment contract, and no employer will ever change a typical employment contract specially for you, unless you are somehow preemptively assumed to be a very valuable employee, in which case you are most likely being hired for some very high-level (like, executive) position, so your contract isn't "typical" to start with. And this is far less likely than actually becoming a valuable employee just by doing your quite ordinary job for a few years. You might as well recommend fighting over your gym membership contract, of a bank contract, or a telecom operator contract. Right, it's your free choice, uh-huh. Either you accept it as is, or you go fuck yourself and workout at home, without internet, looking for a job where you'll be paid in cash (which also is far from being common). Again, unless you are preemptively perceived to be a very special customer (i.e. "expected to bring in a lot of money"), in which case your contract probably isn't typical to start with. And it is most likely your lawyer who negotiates over it for you anyway.
      - flir 4y ago
        I must have had half a dozen contracts tweaked over the course of my career. Small things, of course, like making IP rights more explicit and changing notice periods. I can assure you I'm not that valuable. Weird.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Saying a contract is "non-negotiable" is just another negotiating tactic. They're all negotiable.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
- hodgesrm 4y ago
  It's a little more nuanced than that. Developing home nuclear reactors is an example where the approach might not benefit society at large. Edit: Comment is off-topic but I've heard this phrase so many times it's triggering.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- strix_varius 4y ago
  I would generally say, "ask for forgiveness not permission if you'll be fine walking back your decision later." Forgiveness often makes sense at work, at least for software engineers, and for modest decisions. Do things the way you think is best instead of getting blocked for weeks looking for permission. If, later on, someone comes knocking and wanting to change it, fine, whatever. However, taking the "forgiveness" route with more important / harder to change / expensive things - like building some addition to your house, building a software business separate your software job - is a recipe for disaster.
GeertB 4y ago
In particular, if you're developing Free Software or Open Source Software, and a company wants to hire you, it is _expected_ that they're OK with you continuing to do so. If any contract says otherwise, explain that you need to keep doing what you're doing in order to stay at the level of expertise that you're at. If a future employer would not agree for you to keep doing that, you shouldn't sign.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  It's best to write down what you expect and get agreement on important matters like this.
- basicplus2 4y ago
  I find that if you simply change the wording of their contract to what you are happy with, initial all your changes, sign all pages, sign it, photocopy it, and send it in, nobody rejects it. Later when they try to hold you to the original contract, you simply ask them for the contract you signed.. This has worked for me everytime :)
  - dottedmag 4y ago
    Wait until contracts start to come in DocuSign, where the only thing you can do is to scribe something obscene instead of a signature.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      There is no way I will every use DocuSign. Think about it: the chances in the longer term of DocuSign being hacked approach '1', and that means that everybody that ever uploaded their signature to that site runs the risk of having other documents signed with that signature without the recourse that it wasn't them uploading their sig to some online service. And then there is this: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/commercial-business/practice/2019/electronic-signatures-contracts-agreements/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/com...
tialaramex 4y ago
It definitely doesn't hurt to ask questions, even if you don't always get answers Many years ago I asked my employer why my salary was lower than the contractually agreed minimum salary for 21 year olds in their organisation. I never received a reply but I did receive a raise and pay backdated to the point where I was hired. Years before that I asked my bank why I can't just use all the ATMs since they all have money in them and they're all connected to the same network. I never received a reply but some years later the ATMs were indeed all usable (of course, subsequently many began to charge money for withdrawals, so it's still worth going to the "right" ATM if you care) More recently I asked my bank if they can avoid giving me a contactless capable credit card when they issue new cards. At first they said this was impossible, but when time came to renew my card and I mentioned being disappointed that it would now be contactless, the call taker said actually she can do that, she'll cancel the renewed card she's just had issued and send me one without contactless, but it will take a few days. That card expired, and a few months ago I received its automatic replacement, this time it does have the contactless logo like all the others, but it came with a slim "Contactless-less" sheet explaining that the bank noticed I don't want a contactless card and have told this card not to allow contactless transactions despite the logo however, it is actually a contactless card and so if I change my mind I can just call the bank and activate the contactless feature. [ You might wonder why I don't want a contactless card. Contactless credit cards can OK modestly sized payments based on proximity, which is convenient but clearly poses a risk of fraud I don't want. My phone is also capable of proximity based transactions, but it is not limited to some arbitrary size of transaction and I need to explicitly unlock it to allow the transaction. So, the phone "is" my credit card for the purposes of routine transactions, but it has better security. ]
- exabrial 4y ago
  I'd read up on how the protocol works... There could be a live "relay" attack available , but it's not like someone could just swipe your butt and make a bunch of cloned cards. The magstripe is more of a hazard than anything else as it the numbers on the front un-encrpyted.
  - tialaramex 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jhgb 4y ago

> the book I used to learn recommended asking permission to link to a website. I thought that was weird You thought correctly. You should have read a book written by someone smarter. Imagine a world where you'd have to ask book writers if you're allowed to cite or to refer to their books in yours.

hnlmorg 4y ago
It easy to say that in hindsight but it wasn’t that unusual of advice in the early days of the web (which is when the GP is describing). The web (and internet as a whole) was a very different playground to what it is now. In fact you only have to look at how trusting early internet protocols were and all the bolted on hacks we’ve needed since to see the change (eg SMTP, FTP etc all have security as an afterthought).