8 ms·

Something I've learned is that you don't love and connect with people because of who they are; you don't often find people you magically feel close to or intere

Something I've learned is that you don't love and connect with people because of who they are; you don't often find people you magically feel close to or interested in right at the beginning. You can't hold out for that. You love and connect with people because... you love and connect with them. The more time you spend, the more you share about yourself, the more moments you have together- relationships will usually become deep and meaningful as a result, almost regardless of where they started. If you ask questions that tug on the threads of a person's life, you'll find that almost everyone is interesting. If you take a leap and invest time and energy in people, you'll find life-giving connection you didn't even know could have been there. It can be hard to bootstrap this process. Like financial poverty, it takes energy to invest in the interactions that eventually lift you out of the lack of energy, which can be a catch-22. But the advice is the same: scrimp and save at first, and then spend strategically until you can get the flywheel going. But I can almost guarantee that the boundary you're facing is your own shortage of energy, not a shortage of opportunities for connection. Not to trivialize that; it's still a hard place to be in. But I think it would be more productive to re-frame things as such.

sdwr 4y ago
I love this comment! Feels like the perfect words coming from a great direction. Adding on: - the perfect is the enemy of the good - it gets easier, you just have to do it every day - we forge the chains we wear in life - jibjab hotdogs
uniqueuid 4y ago
The same goes for spouses, by the way. You don't have a happy marriage/partnership because you met the person of your dreams and then both accidentally stay the same person forever. Happy marriages exist because people continuously and mutually change each other in a positive way.
- brundolf 4y ago
  That's a big part of it, though I think it's fair to be a little more selective when there's only going to be one person in that role for the rest of your life But there's no such constraint on other relationships. Those deserve an abundance-mindset; go out into the world, see what people are like, don't assume you already know what you're looking for, see which relationships stick. You have almost nothing to lose. Edit: That said, lots of people are way too far on this end of the spectrum even when it comes to life-partnerships. The key is to dial in and not overestimate how much you actually know about other people, the world, and even yourself.
- dkersten 4y ago
  This is something that always bothers me. A lot of people forget that you have to work on relationships and then eventually they fall apart. I'm of the opinion that a belief in "soulmates" or finding "the one" or whatever is a big part of the problem: if they're your soulmate, then everything should always be perfect, right? and if its not, then that means they weren't actually the one, so end of relationship and move on hoping to find the true one... But it doesn't work like that in real life, no relationship is perfect all the time and both people need to work on them. Relationships are like gardens, they don't stay beautiful if they're neglected.
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    No, the concept of a soul mate is that you have a bind that transcends this life, that there this is a journey your souls decided to take together before your birth. Ups, downs, whatever, it will work in the end, because that was the mission. To teach a lesson. Maybe the lesson was how to overcome differences? Now the common modern usage of soulmate just means “person was meant for me” and that’s open to 100% of your criticism.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      Do you think they were using the meaning that nobody's heard of or the modern one that everyone knows?
      - imwillofficial 4y ago
        “Nobody has heard of” You are not everyone. But I included the second caveat to cover each potential usage. Maybe you’ve learned something today
        guerrilla 4y ago
        Just gonna trudge on with the pedantry then? Nobody means literally nobody when they say nobody. It's a rhetorical exaggeration.
- jiggawatts 4y ago
  An analogy that might appeal to machine learning enthusiasts: The quality of friendships and romantic relationships can be thought of as the dot product of two high-dimensional vectors. The elements of the vectors describe mutual interests, attributes that are important for relationships, etc... The dot product means that as your interests and personalities are more aligned, the relationship can become stronger. (Aside: There is good scientific evidence that the opposites attract myth is just a myth. The converse is true. More similar people find each other more attractive.) But here's the rub: by default the vectors are already fairly aligned by the simple fact that we're all human. We all have some baked-in interests, wants, and personality traits that align well with the same in the fellow members of our species. Secondly, most people meet people that are physically near them, which means that statistically, their "vectors" will align significantly better than chance. Like... way, way better. I can sympathise with the author of the blog article. I get it. I really do. I'm a political refugee, and three decades later, I still don't quite fit in with the people in my new home. Combine that with esoteric interests and a shy personality, and I start to look like the author an awful lot. But I've had surprisingly little trouble living with romantic partners from hugely different backgrounds. Literal polar opposites of the planet, different religions, you name it. Turns out that they're just... human. They want hugs and romantic meals, trips overseas and back rubs. Same as everyone else. It really doesn't take much at all to "align". It's basically our wired-in default! Essentially, the best we can do is optimise this dot product, but there isn't anyone on the planet that will reach 100%. Despite this, we can get a surprisingly good match without even trying, because we're all already set up for being a 90% match for each other. People like the author are complaining about being an 80% match, not a 5% match. I got to my 90% by simply finding partners that were also political refuges and/or expats. That's all it took. I didn't have to change my personality or become a different person. To put things in perspective: There are people that put up with abusive spouses. Seriously, think about that! If you don't think you can get along with a friend or a romantic partner, just consider for a minute that other people find physical abuse tolerable, because it's just one dimension in a high dimensional vector where everything else mostly aligns. I mean... sheesh... just... don't hit people? You're already way ahead of a surprising fraction of people just by doing that one thing.
new_newbie 4y ago
This is spot on from my own experiences. I'm currently in that sort of a position where I'm aware my energy (which I've started to refer to as currency with my therapist) is low. It refreshes every day (the amount depending on sleep quality) and even at the best of days it's not enough to do an iota of what I was previously capable of doing. Personally, in my situation I believe the answer to be antidepressants and will likely be going on them soon. Once this "situation" becomes lived in, it becomes harder to escape from... especially whilst self-isolating. Antidepressants increase neurotransmitters (which ones depends on the class of drug) and aid in this positive-thinking and habit-formation. Psilocybin works acutely through this mechanism as well (increased serotonin -> neurogenesis -> escaping mental ruts + more easily forming habits). (note: when people 'cure' depression through psilocybin it's typically by being exposed to an extremely different perspective of the world. For example, "I forgot how beautiful nature is" or "every stranger has an amazing story" or "the world is so big and so much to explore". Taking those learnings back with yourself is one way to help depression, but in that class the depression is usually sub-clinical.) People who start Prozac, for example, and get positive results tend to report a much better ability to learn and to maintain hopefulness. This situation is not always due a chemical root cause (i.e. passing of a loved one) but staying in that state for much too long will cause a learned depression that we will accept as our truth of the world. At that point, SSRIs and other medicines have a role.
- danenania 4y ago
  You know what’s best for you. I’m wondering though if you’ve tried the non-pharmaceutical options already? Daily exercise, time outside, eating healthy, limiting screen time, sleeping well, and all that. A lot of studies have found doing these things to be at least as effective as SSRIs. They can create hormonal and neurochemical changes that are just as strong. Check out some of Andrew Huberman’s podcasts for more on this. I wish you the best in any case with whatever route you take!
  - guerrilla 4y ago
AlexCoventry 4y ago
Looks like maybe too many people are loving and connecting with this website. I'm getting a Heroku application error when I try to access it.
hoherd 4y ago
> But no matter the medicinal virtues of being a true friend or sustaining a long, close relationship with another, the ultimate touchstone of friendship is not improvement, neither of the other nor of the self: the ultimate touchstone is witness, the privilege of having been seen by someone and the equal privilege of being granted the sight of the essence of another, to have walked with them and to have believed in them, and sometimes just to have accompanied them for however brief a span, on a journey impossible to accomplish alone. David Whyte - Friendship
kstenerud 4y ago
That has not been my experience at all. Of the many relationships I've had in my life (romantic, platonic, family, etc), I can count on one hand the number that became deep and meaningful. Yes, deep relationships take time to develop. But there needs to be a lot more than simply time spent together; you need to be compatible as well. But when you DO develop these deep and meaningful relationships, it's the best thing in the world, and something to treasure! I was a LOT more strategic in my relationships leading up to my second marriage, and it paid off in spades.
- azemetre 4y ago
  What do you mean by strategic? Like willing to be more vulnerable with others?
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    Like looking for certain broad points of compatibility. For example, dominant and submissive traits are very fundamental to our nature, and too big of a mismatch here will be a source of conflict (two dominants) or unfulfillment (two submissives). There's a lot of wiggle room and nuance of course, but in broad strokes some people want to make the decisions, while others want to have those decisions made for them. It's important to take stock of where you want control, and where you want to give up control (and find someone who's somewhat close to your complement). You'll want at least some common interests so that you actively enjoy some of the things you can do together and are not always doing things together for the others benefit (although that IS important some of the time). You'll want somewhat similar approaches to home life (a major source of conflict). Some compromise is healthy, but too much is stifling. Honest, open and respectful communication is an absolute must in both you and your mate (with the odd slip-up that you make a point of correcting). Vulnerability basically comes with the territory here, since you can't be fully honest and open without becoming vulnerable. We all have our secret hurts and shames and desires and insecurities, and they'll always be a source of weakness if we can't trust our partners with them (after which they become a bond of strength). Having a deep relationship with another human being is a humbling experience, because it's impossible without sharing empathy and burdens and trust. It forces you to live outside of your own little world, and I'm beginning to think that I likely wouldn't have been capable of such a thing in my youth, even if I'd known then what I know now...
alexpetralia 4y ago
An essay I had written on this https://alexpetralia.github.io/relationships/2019/02/22/what-makes-a-great-conversation.html https://alexpetralia.github.io/relationships/2019/02/22/what... > "In essence, vulnerability engineers good conversation. Vulnerability appeals to our common humanity. In the real world, you and I may differ in every respect imaginable. But in the abstract world - in the world of beliefs and ideas and emotions - there is something fundamental that transcends all human division: divisions of language or race or culture or class. That something is the human condition. It is our primal beliefs in fairness and reason and competition, or emotions of pride and anger and revenge, all of which have been baked into our very existence over millenia of evolution. The common ground is there - with everyone; if you can’t find it, just go deeper."
yojo 4y ago
Of note: bootstrapping is (potentially) hackable between two willing parties. At least per Aron’s study[1]. Who knows if it would replicate. At least in my own relationships I have seen the pattern of escalating personal self-disclosure leading to deeper and more meaningful bonds. Honestly I think this is why alcohol plays a role in so many early friendships - the disinhibiting effects make it easier to admit personal details to people you don’t already fully trust. Doesn’t mean you need to get tipsy to make friends, but you’ll need to find other ways to open up. 1. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0146167297234003 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/014616729723400...

sdwr 4y ago

I love this comment! Feels like the perfect words coming from a great direction. Adding on: - the perfect is the enemy of the good - it gets easier, you just have to do it every day - we forge the chains we wear in life - jibjab hotdogs

uniqueuid 4y ago

The same goes for spouses, by the way. You don't have a happy marriage/partnership because you met the person of your dreams and then both accidentally stay the same person forever. Happy marriages exist because people continuously and mutually change each other in a positive way.

brundolf 4y ago
That's a big part of it, though I think it's fair to be a little more selective when there's only going to be one person in that role for the rest of your life But there's no such constraint on other relationships. Those deserve an abundance-mindset; go out into the world, see what people are like, don't assume you already know what you're looking for, see which relationships stick. You have almost nothing to lose. Edit: That said, lots of people are way too far on this end of the spectrum even when it comes to life-partnerships. The key is to dial in and not overestimate how much you actually know about other people, the world, and even yourself.
dkersten 4y ago
This is something that always bothers me. A lot of people forget that you have to work on relationships and then eventually they fall apart. I'm of the opinion that a belief in "soulmates" or finding "the one" or whatever is a big part of the problem: if they're your soulmate, then everything should always be perfect, right? and if its not, then that means they weren't actually the one, so end of relationship and move on hoping to find the true one... But it doesn't work like that in real life, no relationship is perfect all the time and both people need to work on them. Relationships are like gardens, they don't stay beautiful if they're neglected.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  No, the concept of a soul mate is that you have a bind that transcends this life, that there this is a journey your souls decided to take together before your birth. Ups, downs, whatever, it will work in the end, because that was the mission. To teach a lesson. Maybe the lesson was how to overcome differences? Now the common modern usage of soulmate just means “person was meant for me” and that’s open to 100% of your criticism.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    Do you think they were using the meaning that nobody's heard of or the modern one that everyone knows?
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      “Nobody has heard of” You are not everyone. But I included the second caveat to cover each potential usage. Maybe you’ve learned something today
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        Just gonna trudge on with the pedantry then? Nobody means literally nobody when they say nobody. It's a rhetorical exaggeration.
jiggawatts 4y ago
An analogy that might appeal to machine learning enthusiasts: The quality of friendships and romantic relationships can be thought of as the dot product of two high-dimensional vectors. The elements of the vectors describe mutual interests, attributes that are important for relationships, etc... The dot product means that as your interests and personalities are more aligned, the relationship can become stronger. (Aside: There is good scientific evidence that the opposites attract myth is just a myth. The converse is true. More similar people find each other more attractive.) But here's the rub: by default the vectors are already fairly aligned by the simple fact that we're all human. We all have some baked-in interests, wants, and personality traits that align well with the same in the fellow members of our species. Secondly, most people meet people that are physically near them, which means that statistically, their "vectors" will align significantly better than chance. Like... way, way better. I can sympathise with the author of the blog article. I get it. I really do. I'm a political refugee, and three decades later, I still don't quite fit in with the people in my new home. Combine that with esoteric interests and a shy personality, and I start to look like the author an awful lot. But I've had surprisingly little trouble living with romantic partners from hugely different backgrounds. Literal polar opposites of the planet, different religions, you name it. Turns out that they're just... human. They want hugs and romantic meals, trips overseas and back rubs. Same as everyone else. It really doesn't take much at all to "align". It's basically our wired-in default! Essentially, the best we can do is optimise this dot product, but there isn't anyone on the planet that will reach 100%. Despite this, we can get a surprisingly good match without even trying, because we're all already set up for being a 90% match for each other. People like the author are complaining about being an 80% match, not a 5% match. I got to my 90% by simply finding partners that were also political refuges and/or expats. That's all it took. I didn't have to change my personality or become a different person. To put things in perspective: There are people that put up with abusive spouses. Seriously, think about that! If you don't think you can get along with a friend or a romantic partner, just consider for a minute that other people find physical abuse tolerable, because it's just one dimension in a high dimensional vector where everything else mostly aligns. I mean... sheesh... just... don't hit people? You're already way ahead of a surprising fraction of people just by doing that one thing.

new_newbie 4y ago

This is spot on from my own experiences. I'm currently in that sort of a position where I'm aware my energy (which I've started to refer to as currency with my therapist) is low. It refreshes every day (the amount depending on sleep quality) and even at the best of days it's not enough to do an iota of what I was previously capable of doing. Personally, in my situation I believe the answer to be antidepressants and will likely be going on them soon. Once this "situation" becomes lived in, it becomes harder to escape from... especially whilst self-isolating. Antidepressants increase neurotransmitters (which ones depends on the class of drug) and aid in this positive-thinking and habit-formation. Psilocybin works acutely through this mechanism as well (increased serotonin -> neurogenesis -> escaping mental ruts + more easily forming habits). (note: when people 'cure' depression through psilocybin it's typically by being exposed to an extremely different perspective of the world. For example, "I forgot how beautiful nature is" or "every stranger has an amazing story" or "the world is so big and so much to explore". Taking those learnings back with yourself is one way to help depression, but in that class the depression is usually sub-clinical.) People who start Prozac, for example, and get positive results tend to report a much better ability to learn and to maintain hopefulness. This situation is not always due a chemical root cause (i.e. passing of a loved one) but staying in that state for much too long will cause a learned depression that we will accept as our truth of the world. At that point, SSRIs and other medicines have a role.

danenania 4y ago
You know what’s best for you. I’m wondering though if you’ve tried the non-pharmaceutical options already? Daily exercise, time outside, eating healthy, limiting screen time, sleeping well, and all that. A lot of studies have found doing these things to be at least as effective as SSRIs. They can create hormonal and neurochemical changes that are just as strong. Check out some of Andrew Huberman’s podcasts for more on this. I wish you the best in any case with whatever route you take!
- guerrilla 4y ago

AlexCoventry 4y ago

Looks like maybe too many people are loving and connecting with this website. I'm getting a Heroku application error when I try to access it.

hoherd 4y ago

> But no matter the medicinal virtues of being a true friend or sustaining a long, close relationship with another, the ultimate touchstone of friendship is not improvement, neither of the other nor of the self: the ultimate touchstone is witness, the privilege of having been seen by someone and the equal privilege of being granted the sight of the essence of another, to have walked with them and to have believed in them, and sometimes just to have accompanied them for however brief a span, on a journey impossible to accomplish alone. David Whyte - Friendship

kstenerud 4y ago

That has not been my experience at all. Of the many relationships I've had in my life (romantic, platonic, family, etc), I can count on one hand the number that became deep and meaningful. Yes, deep relationships take time to develop. But there needs to be a lot more than simply time spent together; you need to be compatible as well. But when you DO develop these deep and meaningful relationships, it's the best thing in the world, and something to treasure! I was a LOT more strategic in my relationships leading up to my second marriage, and it paid off in spades.

azemetre 4y ago
What do you mean by strategic? Like willing to be more vulnerable with others?
- kstenerud 4y ago
  Like looking for certain broad points of compatibility. For example, dominant and submissive traits are very fundamental to our nature, and too big of a mismatch here will be a source of conflict (two dominants) or unfulfillment (two submissives). There's a lot of wiggle room and nuance of course, but in broad strokes some people want to make the decisions, while others want to have those decisions made for them. It's important to take stock of where you want control, and where you want to give up control (and find someone who's somewhat close to your complement). You'll want at least some common interests so that you actively enjoy some of the things you can do together and are not always doing things together for the others benefit (although that IS important some of the time). You'll want somewhat similar approaches to home life (a major source of conflict). Some compromise is healthy, but too much is stifling. Honest, open and respectful communication is an absolute must in both you and your mate (with the odd slip-up that you make a point of correcting). Vulnerability basically comes with the territory here, since you can't be fully honest and open without becoming vulnerable. We all have our secret hurts and shames and desires and insecurities, and they'll always be a source of weakness if we can't trust our partners with them (after which they become a bond of strength). Having a deep relationship with another human being is a humbling experience, because it's impossible without sharing empathy and burdens and trust. It forces you to live outside of your own little world, and I'm beginning to think that I likely wouldn't have been capable of such a thing in my youth, even if I'd known then what I know now...

alexpetralia 4y ago

An essay I had written on this https://alexpetralia.github.io/relationships/2019/02/22/what-makes-a-great-conversation.html https://alexpetralia.github.io/relationships/2019/02/22/what... > "In essence, vulnerability engineers good conversation. Vulnerability appeals to our common humanity. In the real world, you and I may differ in every respect imaginable. But in the abstract world - in the world of beliefs and ideas and emotions - there is something fundamental that transcends all human division: divisions of language or race or culture or class. That something is the human condition. It is our primal beliefs in fairness and reason and competition, or emotions of pride and anger and revenge, all of which have been baked into our very existence over millenia of evolution. The common ground is there - with everyone; if you can’t find it, just go deeper."

yojo 4y ago

Of note: bootstrapping is (potentially) hackable between two willing parties. At least per Aron’s study[1]. Who knows if it would replicate. At least in my own relationships I have seen the pattern of escalating personal self-disclosure leading to deeper and more meaningful bonds. Honestly I think this is why alcohol plays a role in so many early friendships - the disinhibiting effects make it easier to admit personal details to people you don’t already fully trust. Doesn’t mean you need to get tipsy to make friends, but you’ll need to find other ways to open up. 1. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0146167297234003 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/014616729723400...