38 ms·

Ask HN: Europe to East Coast, does it make sense to move at 50?

76 points by koevet 4y ago

Dear HN, I have the opportunity to move from Berlin to Princeton, NJ, in relation to my wife's job. I wonder if it makes sense financially and I thought to ask the community. A bit of context: I turned 50 this year, I have 25+ years of coding/system design/tech lead experience. I have mostly worked as a freelance "on-site", sometimes for short periods of time, some other times I stayed with the same client for years. These days I work on a lot of cloud migration projects, with a strong focus on AWS. So, coming to my question, I have no frame of reference regarding salaries on the East Coast, especially for freelance jobs. I did some research and the salaries for permanent positions in the area are significantly lower than my current income in Europe. I assume that I could potentially earn more by engaging clients on the west coast, but my US network is non existent. Is the free-lancing that I'm used to do in Europe even a thing in the US? (Working for a client for months - at least 6 - on a daily rate which is higher than a normal salary because I can be released at any time plus I bear all the cost of employment including health). Also, can my age represent a problem for employers? Sorry for the fuzziness of the question, I hope it does make some sense. EDIT: my wife's company will provide a work permit for me, but at this stage I don't know which type.

Luc 4y ago
You already have a work permit?
- koevet 4y ago
  My wife's company will provide a work permit.
  - somewhereoutth 4y ago
    I would double check this - assuming your wife will be going over on an H1B or L1 visa (edit: correction: L1 can get you an L2 as a spouse), as a spouse you would not be allowed to work in the US.
    - ljlolel 4y ago
      If Princeton probably O1
      - somewhereoutth 4y ago
        which would mean no work permit for a spouse
    - tr33house 4y ago
      +1 having gone through the US immigration system, it doesn't quite work as a reasonable immigrant would think. Before you move, make sure to talk to a US immigration lawyer. The process will be long and painful unless she's moving to a university or for a religious job where some exceptions apply. You might find yourself in a spot where you're not allowed to work, even for European clients legally
      - koevet 4y ago
        Thanks, yes this is something I need to determine ASAP - even though the move should realistically take place next year, so I should have some time to figure things out, visa-wise My wife job is for a European company, no UNI or religious context.
    - elmalto 4y ago
      As the spouse of L1 you get an L2 which lets you work for any employer including yourself as long as the L1 is active. With the L2 you get an EAD on arrival and do not have to wait for months to get it.
      - somewhereoutth 4y ago
        Ah yes correct, thanks. I have updated my comment.
      - 988747 4y ago
        A friend of mine moved to US on L1, with his wife. It took them 5 years before the wife got EAD (work permit). It is possible that they fucked the process up, and it can be done faster, just wanted to mention it here.
kkfx 4y ago
Two neighbors, ex-USA Citizens have give up the Citizenship to cut their tie with the IRS... They often say "America is here" (France). IME if you plan a short migration for a project, witch means go, earn enough money, come back and you do not need ANY KIND of health services in the foreseeable meantime it's ok. If not... USA level of services is third world compared to EU, bureaucracy is byzantine, surely you might earn much more in absolute terms, just to spend much more in countless fees, you get, perhaps depending from a place to another, very nice nature, nice colleagues, parties, spaces, ... It's an experience, but definitively not a country I'll ever choose or recommend compared to EU. Financially is a nonsense if not for a limited period of time, being healthy, etc. My suggestion is NOT just asking about salaries but also about cost of living, about all the bureaucracy you need, about how to find a lawyer (because yes, you need one, even just to subscribe to a local gym) etc.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  You also "need a lawyer" to cancel gym memberships in Western European countries. Do some minimal research yourself.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hans1729 4y ago
  You need a lawyer just to subscribe to a local gym?
  - kkfx 4y ago
    That's an exaggeration yes, but not that much: I was in the USA for a project, I want to try a local gym and they give me a 60+ pages or so contracts! Here, and at least in most EU country, the contract is just one page with the list of services and the relative monthly or per-entry fee + privacy notice. It's not even a real contract in the end. All I need is a generic medical certificate that declare I'm healthy enough to go to the gym. Surely it's not a valid meter for a country, but still a significant sign of really exaggerated bureaucracy where a lawyer might be needed just to be sure not get trapped somewhere.
DeathArrow 4y ago
Can you make a test move for just a few months and see if you like it? Employment aside, there are other things that matters when you change countries / continents. As an European, I wouldn't like to move permanently to the US. If you are making enough money in Europe, I don't see much incentives to move to US.
- bjornsing 4y ago
  Interesting work? A love for liberty? Less crab mentality? Sorry, as a somewhat disgruntled European I couldn’t resist.
  - sdfjkl 4y ago
    That'd be France you're describing. Plus, the food is better there :)
    - jules 4y ago
      Is it? This may be heresy, but I found the food in the US to be better than in France. If you're willing to spend a lot of money it may be better in France, but for ordinary eating out I've found the US to be better. Patisserie is better in France, though.
      - sdfjkl 4y ago
        I think so. But we mostly cook, so ingredient availability/price is more important than restaurants, which however I also found much better in France. Of course it probably depends on the areas you visit and how you select restaurants. Paris is full of tourist traps. In the US regional differences were enourmous.
    - bjornsing 4y ago
      Just the fact that you’re focused on the food makes me think you’re totally wrong. ;) France has one of the highest tax-to-gdp ratios in the world (46%). If you like government constraints it’s not the place to be.
bshepard 4y ago
Hello there, I live in Berlin now and used to live in the United States. My family is there, and I go back to the east coast of the US often. The degenerating and dystopian quality of the United States is difficult to overstate, but almost impossible to capture verbally. Whatever one cause attributes to the systematic breakdown of the US, it is difficult to deny the realities of the decline -- massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues, increase polarization of politics, censoriousness on all sides of the discussion, narrowness, a shortening of attention, a loss of standards. I could go on, but it's too depressing. I came to Berlin first in 2006. Yes, it was very cheap then, but also very monocultural: now there are many more forms of life here, and they benefit from their coexistence. Stay here, make this moderately good place even better.
- bshepard 4y ago
  This is not exactly a financial response, and that was the context of your question, so forgive the somewhat off-topic aspect of the remark -- yet, the negative aspects of life in the US have both real actual costs and possible future risks. All the talk about civil war might be bluff, but it is still alarming.
  - koevet 4y ago
    no worries, it definitively helps to put things in perspective. We have not made our mind up yet, so these "angles" are super helpful too.
- dewey 4y ago
  How is that's even slightly related to OPs question? > Stay here, make this moderately good place even better I think you missed the part about his wife's job in the US which is the reason for the move in the first place.
  - deleted 4y ago
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danjac 4y ago
Moving to the US at this point would be like buying a ticket on the Titanic just after it hit the iceberg. But sure, why not?
- marban 4y ago
  Underrated comment
- blablabla123 4y ago
  I think you could say this about many regions in the world at the moment to be fair. Covid has made a lot of simmering issues escalate all around the world.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  During Vietnam there were hundreds of bombings in the US per year.
danielrpa 4y ago
There are many contract opportunities in the US, often paying more than in Europe, sometimes a LOT more. You didn't provide details about what you do and how much you make, so it's hard to be sure in your particular case. You will be close to NYC, which also opens many opportunities. You could use some job search engine like Indeed to look around a little in your area of expertise. This said, the visa issue could be a major hurdle and it's important to do your homework about this work visa that will be given to you. Regarding the negativity about living in the USA... I immigrated to this country 20 years ago and I love it. I would never trade the US for Europe, despite Europe being an interesting place. It's not fun being poor in the US, like in most of the world, but I think overall it's an amazing country with lots of opportunities, great quality of life and wonderful people.
- bjornsing 4y ago
  I think I’m in your camp, but unfortunately stuck in Europe. Does it make sense to vote with your feet when you’re 44?
  - danielrpa 4y ago
    If you line up a good opportunity in the US, it could. At 44 you probably made decisions based on the expectations for Europe's safety net when you get older. This would be reset when coming to the US. But depending on what you do, it's possible to command enormous salaries in the US, in which case this move would make a lot of sense.
- teekay 4y ago
  How hard would you say it is to get one's foot in the door as a newcomer? My experience servicing US clients from Europe has been great so far. Most clients are easygoing and communicate really well. Also, it seems to me that most care more about what you can do for them as opposed to random credentials and whatnot. In parts of Europe, and especially in Germany, there's still this obsession with having the right degree, and people would proudly feature all their degrees in their email signature :D Anyways, I'm close to OP's age and will be coming to NYC later this year to open an app dev shop. I'm working on getting a few contracts going before I land but I suppose it should get easier when I can start pounding the pavement, right?
binarymax 4y ago
Lots of anti American comments in this thread, so I’ll attempt to actually answer your question. Background - I’m an American who moved abroad for 12 years (UK) and returned after Brexit. Salaries are much higher than the EU. But in some cities cost of living is high. Coming from Berlin, you’ll have an easier time finding an apartment, but it will be expensive. I’d expect to pay $2000 to $2500 per month for a decent apartment in Princeton. Also, you will require a car. Public transport here is not feasible for the most part. A decent car will be $250 per month base, plus $100 to $200 insurance per month, plus fuel. Food is cheap and plentiful. The portion sizes are twice as large for the same equivalent price as the EU :). Make sure you get healthcare coverage through your wife’s job - this shouldn’t be a problem. If you are both in good health you should be fine. If you have preexisting medical conditions then it will likely be much more expensive for you here than in the EU.
- cm2187 4y ago
  > Lots of anti American comments in this thread Probably the time zone. Better to ask this question in the afternoon in europe.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    So you can get a bunch of American nationalists who have never been to Europe answering? You're dismissing people who have actually lived in both places.
    - drstewart 4y ago
- Zerverus 4y ago
  Calling out obvious issues one needs to be aware of is not anti American.
  - binarymax 4y ago
    I could find lots of things wrong with both US and Germany. Everywhere has its problems and nowhere is perfect. I’ve spent time in just about everywhere and lived in a multitude of environments and cultures. I’m happiest living in Rochester, NY than I was anywhere else. It’s all personal preference, but the “issues” mentioned in other comments were not constructive nor related to the OPs questions.
princetontiger 4y ago
You should do it. Princeton NJ is a beautiful part of the state, and close to the university. Not sure where you will live, but Nassau Street has a quaint charm. There's plenty to do, and you are a 90 minute train ride to Manhattan. Don't let the comments discourage you. People are just blowing off steam from the roe v wade ruling.
- shadytrees 4y ago
  Princeton is indeed beautiful. The housing stock is a little mixed -- the apartments near the university are pretty old, and there wasn't much new construction happening when I attended the university in the late 2000s, but the homes (manors, really) nearby are nice (but expensive). You will absolutely need a car. There are buses, but the routes are sparse. It is indeed possible to do a day trip to NYC, as I did many times. You will end up in Penn Station, which is awful, and midtown, which is awful, but the subways will take you where you want to go. I overall do not miss living in Princeton, though I know a fair number of people who stayed after graduation, or moved to Princeton after living in some big cities. It's monocultural, to borrow a term some other commenters have used. It is mostly people who work in or adjacent to the university; it is mostly affluent, white people; there is some art, centered around the theater or the museum scene, but it is the art of that one culture. However, take my subjective experience of the city with a grain of salt. Moving is hard. Moving to a new country doubly so. Make sure you have a strategy for finding friends, likely through your wife's work, or perhaps through meetups. Americans are easy to make friends with. That is, at least, one thing we have going for us, still, in these troubled times. Freelancing for software engineers is very common. I have many friends who do it. You do not even need to file for a corporation to do it. The taxes are not much worse than being a salaried, full-time employee: as with the W-4 form, it is copying numbers off a page someone mails you. Ageism is a real thing in the tech industry here. It is not difficult to find a job, but you will likely work with younger people, probably people in their 20s. Some companies do a good job of integrating people across the age spectrum, but some -- the ones that expect late or odd hours, especially -- do not. That is changing though! The tech industry only gets older each year. If you do move, find a place with central air conditioning. It gets hot and humid during the summers, and only more so now, a decade later, with climate change. Check out, also, the McCarter Theater, which is beautiful. David Sedaris, one of my favorite authors, often gives a talk there each year; and the students from the university put on a pretty good revue each year as well.
rsmiths 4y ago
I don’t think people realise quite how good we have it in Europe. I would not leave Europe to live in America for any amount of money.
- orzig 4y ago
  You do you, but a lot of the horror stories about the US relate to disadvantaged people (financially and otherwise). If “Any amount of money” is >$5M I guarantee you could buy a house in a quiet but close-to-a-city neighborhood, and have plenty left over for healthcare. You will read the same headlines about outrageous injustice that you currently are, but be in a better position to help fix them.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    Yeah but anyone can become disadvantaged.
orzig 4y ago
Concrete data point: My neighbor (a German) moved to the East Coast a year ago (for wife’s job) and has zero intention of moving back (they have bought a house). Obviously lots of details; they are in academia, have an 8yo, were most recently in the UK, etc. But they have their skin in the game and made choose USA.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > they are in academia, Makes me wonder if they draw a lucky ticket like tenure. Because for most cases, the opposite would make more sense.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    If anything goes wrong (or they realise what that kid's college education will cost) they have the option of pitching the house, likely with a gain large enough to buy anything they'd like back in Germany, and move back to the social safety net without much fuss. Especially well-played to move to the US as soon as the kid is old enough to no longer need special medical care or a daycare.
    - orzig 4y ago
      There are worse descriptions of a country than “Zero risk shot at huge upside“! I’m certainly glad my ancestors took it.
      - morelisp 4y ago
        There are also better descriptions of a country than "it's great, as long as you're not from here."
jacquesm 4y ago
I would closely research the health care situation. When you're young, white, male and invincible the US may well be a good choice, but later in life when a bad health care bill is typically just around the corner you will want to be very careful about such decisions. In Germany not a whole lot can happen, in the United States you may well be on the receiving end of the stick. And that's before we get into the speed with which the whole of the world as we knew it seems to be unraveling, including the USA, but I can see some arguments for being safer there than in Berlin.
- jleyank 4y ago
  Watch out for copayment. Make sure your visa is in order. Make sure there’s a social security and tax treaty in place (probably is, but…). Hope you have no pre-existing medical conditions (prob ok with ACA). There’s good and bad in all countries and regions, so make sure you select areas that are congruent to your interests.
pkb 4y ago
Do not go. Here's why: 1) You have no network in the US. You will have to start from scratch. Remember how you started. Multiply difficulty level by 2. And you're not going to be any younger. 2) Salaries for perm positions being "significantly lower" in the US than in EU. This nullifies gains from moving to the US. Add cost of moving everything over long range by plane/cargo ship. 3) Healthcare cost. My friend asked me once about cost of dental care in Ireland (where I live now). I replied 'it depends, between 30-60 euro'. He was quoted 13000 dollars for one tooth job. Think about this double hard, you're 50 and you won't get any younger. 4) Friends and your peers will stay in the EU. You won't see any of them for months and years. Factor in plane ticket prices. You won't be coming home to visit family for Christmas. Just few things from top of my head, but I think they are important.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  >Salaries for perm positions being "significantly lower" in the US than in EU On HN, we hear all the time that the inverse is true. Is it because high salaries are limited to Silicon Valley? In Western Europe, freelancers with good credentials and a large network can have yearly gross revenuу of 100..200k€. Is this comparable to US freelance revenue?
  - christophilus 4y ago
    I’m at the upper end of that spectrum, so I think yes.
  - woodson 4y ago
    I guess one difference is how much of the gross income goes to taxes/social insurance contributions. This can differ a lot from country to country.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > You won't be coming home to visit family for Christmas. Especially if COVID-19 or similar comes back. That cut me off from my family for multiple years.
- Markoff 4y ago
dougmwne 4y ago
You have not provided enough context for anyone to give you useful advice. We would need to know your hourly or daily rate and to basically see your resume to have any chance of giving a rate range. There is also the issue of taxes which make comparisons less straightforward. That said, I think you can generally expect IT pay to be higher in US major cities than almost anywhere in the EU. The US also has the concept of consulting. That runs the range, you could be working for a body shop agency for no more pay than a salary where the agency takes up to 50% of the client’s rate. You could also be an independent consultant where you run your own company and directly market and contract with your clients for 2 or 3 times the pay. The latter takes a personal network and a reputation. If your current clients pay you well, why not just properly structure things and work for them from the US? Besides pay, there is the issue of cost of living. You could have the option to live in a fairly rural area and commute into Princeton. Cost of living can be fairly low in the US outside major cities or some of the highest in the world within them. It is a big country with much variance. One last thing: you will find that the US is basically still the barbarian lands in comparison to Europe, history has a long arm. That can be good or bad depending on you, but don’t be shocked when you find out that the country is bordering on anarchy in comparison to Germany, expect it.
- koevet 4y ago
  Fair point, I didn't want to turn the post into a vanity context. My daily rate is around 1k euro + 19% vat. Note that I have multiple clients, so in some good months the above figure is higher. My tax pressure is around 43%, including health insurance.
  - dougmwne 4y ago
    You are already at a reasonably high rate, even compared to the US. That rate is about 250k annualized, which is a good senior developer salary at most companies outside the big tech companies. It is possible to make more consulting, but it would require the hard work of building your US client base. Specialization matters as well. I think you might have trouble finding many projects through agencies, as that rate is higher that most Agency rates I’ve heard quoted, but again it depends on specialization. So no, there’s no low hanging fruit here. I’m sure you could improve your rate in the US by 2x or 3x by running your own business, but as you are already in a very optimal place there would be hard work involved. And honestly, Americans put longer hours in, pathologically, so you may find the return on investment to work for American clients to be distinctly lacking.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Realistically, you will need to earn NYC wages to afford living in NJ, but employers in and around Princeton expect to pay workers half of those wages. It's also a culturally devoid area and highly car dependent. You'd have a better bet freelancing in either Philadelphia or New York.
- koevet 4y ago
  Hi, ok I thought that Princeton was everything but "culturally devoid". Do you mind elaborating on that?
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    Having lived there, in my experience it was mostly wealthy people and their adult children that lived there, and it was your typical upper middle class suburb. It's a boring, at least to me, monoculture compared to the two cities it sits between, or even New Brunswick. If you didn't come from money, it was an insular place to be. The people I knew, and myself, couldn't wait to get out of there.
orzig 4y ago
Attempting a concise rebuttal to doom-forecasting about USA’s future: Which decade since 1900 was worse than the one before it? Did the daily newspapers predict the most impactful events of the decade (positive or negative)? I share most of your current outrage and concerns, but history shows a clear net positive trend
- twoodfin 4y ago
  I agree with your general point, but I think there’s a strong case that 1960’s > 1970’s.
- christophilus 4y ago
  I was chatting with my dad about this recently. He said, “I lived through some rough decades in this country. Not ‘civil war’ rough; but pretty close. Everyone was predicting our decline. Everyone was wrong. We’ll be just fine.” In my experience, the doom and gloom folks— both micro and macro— have almost never had their predictions play out. There are always Eeyores out there. I prefer Pooh.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
NoMAD76 4y ago
Note: sorry, my english is not my native language My only advice(s) as someone in mid '40s are: 1. Don't jump to such a sudden and radical change, many-many things in US are vastly different that what are you accustom (strong point since you're from Germany) 2. Give it a try since you're mostly working as freelancer, spend 1-2mo (tourist visa) so you will not break up from your wife 3. See how's living there, if you can accommodate 4. Let us know (start ablog) :)
christophilus 4y ago
I freelance and love it. The hard part for you will be getting your foot in the door. I’m about your age, and so far haven’t had any problems with employers in our industry. The rise of remote work probably helps you a bit with the employment side of your question. As for the negative comments, what the comments here don’t address is this: the US is almost more like a bunch of countries rather than one single entity. Which of the states you choose- and which city— makes a huge difference as to your experience. There are absolute hell holes (Flint, Michigan comes to mind) and surprisingly pleasant places (my town of Greenville, SC which was run by an Austrian mayor for so long that it has a fairly European feel to it). On average, the food here is worse. The bread is much worse. The coffee is terrible. But you can find great bread, coffee, etc if you go out of your way to do so (I do). And in NJ and NY metro areas, you’ll have plenty of good options. The healthcare system is dumb and annoying, but fine (where I am) as long as you have insurance (which you should have through your wife). The fact that your healthcare is tied to your employer is so, so dumb. If you freelance and get a visa, maybe you can buy your own. That’s what I do, and it’s my preference. Politically, we are really more divided than I can remember in my lifetime. But it doesn’t affect me at all in my day to day life. I suspect the next two years will be pretty rough if you care about politics. Personally, I just tune it out. I vote. But other than that, I focus on my family, job, local community, and hobbies, and I’m quite happy here. Edit: one more thing: my wife and I are considering moving to France. I work remotely, so this is simpler for us than for many. Our plan is to start by testing the waters with a long term (3 months or so) rental. If you can do something similar, do it!
- koevet 4y ago
  Thanks for your thoughts. I visited the US in the past (hell, me best trip ever was an epic coast to coast with a Marine friend) and I'm aware of the differences. Cultural differences are ok, this is why we consider moving - and why I moved a lot around in the past. My main concern is about getting to an age where I can't really afford severe financial missteps. Our "purchase power" here in Berlin is very very high and as much I consider Berlin a messed-up city the overall quality of life is stellar. I can afford to stay put for a while (in fact, that is the plan in case we move, so I can support my kids with school etc.), but I want to make sure that, when my stay at home dad period ends, I can get to an income level that is close to our situation in Berlin. Doesn't have to be the same, but I don't want to end up loosing money over the move.
cameronperot 4y ago
I'm an American (Texan) who has been living in Germany for the past 6 years. I would suggest to consider the culture and lifestyle more than the work, as those will play a much larger role in your happiness and satisfaction. It sounds cliché, but money doesn't necessarily buy happiness. I enjoy living in German/European cities significantly more than I did living in big cities in Texas (I can't speak for the East Coast). I value the culture of being able to walk or bike pretty much anywhere in the city in a reasonable amount of time. I value feeling safe even in the "bad" neighborhoods here in Germany. I've never once come across a situation where I was worried about my safety here, I can't say the same for the US. I value a society that isn't so extreme (wealth inequality, political ideology, etc.). As for what I miss about the US, it's mostly the food (TexMex, BBQ) and nature (so much more to see and do, but you need a car). There's also the work culture which is a bit different, particularly in terms of startups and innovation; Germany definitely lags behind in this aspect. Some things are more convenient in the US as well, such as stores being open later and on Sundays. Germany isn't perfect, but I think it's better than the US in a lot of quality of life aspects. Before moving, I would recommend going to visit the city and see if it's something that might fit you. Try to talk to locals and explain your situation, I'm sure there would be people happy to show you around and give you some good insights from a less touristy perspective. Of course, all of this is hard to weigh if your wife will be living there for certain, as long-distance relationships can be tough.
- koevet 4y ago
  Hey thanks for your comment, I feel this thread is turning a bit into a US vs. EU pitfight. We are going to be in NYC in a couple of weeks and we plan to spend one day in Princeton, as you suggest. Regarding the long term relationship, if we move we are going to move as a family (2 kids included :))
  - cameronperot 4y ago
    Happy to contribute what perspective I can :). I didn't mean to put it as a hostile US vs. EU thing, just wanted to state my reasons for going the other way. I saw in another comment that you said it would only be for a few years. In that case it's a bit different as I was going off of the assumption it was long-term/permanent, so it could be a more worthwhile experience. I would say that it could even be beneficial for the kids in terms of their English skills and getting a more worldly experience. Most Germans I know speak good English, but some of those who have done study abroad programs in the US have definitely mastered the language and accent, which is especially useful in STEM as almost all research is done in English these days.
dustingetz 4y ago
zoom has let agile east coast firms work with international contractors which i expect to compress US freelance rates and inflate international rates towards the US mean. the only markets you gain access to by moving to Princeton is NYC and west coast timezones as remote worker. my main question is how you will source contracts which is the determinant of if you are competing with local or remote talent. My NYC contracts, as a freelancer living in Philadelphia, all came from NYC software meetups combined with a strong online presence in the relevant community. Cities in the US are not nearly as closely located as Europe where there are 10 cities within 3 hrs commute of any point so if you’re going to get contracts from IRL networking you have to focus on one city. if you don’t plan to benefit from NYC proximity i don’t know if you will gain advantage living here. Also you may experience ageism in NYC market as it is extremely competitive.
sys_64738 4y ago
America is the best country in the world economically and culturally. Most folk who spout anti-American rhetoric get their news from biased sources and have never been here any length of time. Sure it has its problems like everywhere else but this country is the greatest and I could never imagine living anywhere else. So I’d recommend trying it. I say all that as a European.
akudha 4y ago
If you have medical issues for anyone in your family, think a million times before moving to the United States. Unless you have very good health insurance, you’re fucked, financially. Other things like infrastructure, political polarization etc are very real. But there are also lots of opportunities in tech, salaries are higher than Europe but the work culture is worse - expect to work longer hours than Europe, little paid leave, fire at will etc. These are personal choices and compromises. If things don’t work out, can you easily move back to Berlin? If yes, maybe it is worth taking a chance and spend a couple of years here and see how it goes?
Question50 4y ago
Personal context: I am American, have lived in 9 countries on 5 continents & currently live in Europe, and am the same age as the OP. Immersing oneself within another culture is almost always worth it, but like anything valuable there are always challenges. Psychologically, the Gartner hype cycle will apply to you and your family (replace “innovation trigger” with “new culture trigger”). Given your visa situation is unknown, what’s your backup plan if you can’t work? (e.g., go back to university, learn a new language, etc.) I can’t stress enough to have a plan here. Having one partner being productive in a new culture while the other is mired in the “trough of disillusionment” for a long time is a recipe for immense family/financial strife. A good starting point for financial questions you might ask yourself: • Will your children go to private ($$$$) or public schools? • Will your partner’s employer pay for tax preparation and for how long? Finding international tax people, let alone competent ones, in the USA is extremely difficult & $$$$. Do not underestimate how Byzantine/inane/amoral the US tax system is. • How are you handling international banking & investments? (Goes with the tax part above) • How are you handling private pension contributions? (Goes with the tax part above; *warning*: different governments may not recognize foreign pensions and instead treat them as taxable investment accounts…. Tread *very* carefully here.) • How are public social taxes handled between DE & the USA? (e.g., US $$$ into Social Security is credited as DE €€€? Or just time credits to qualify for a DE pubic pension? Where will you retire, the USA or DE?) • Are there any social taxes that need to still be paid in DE while you are in the USA in order to use healthcare, education, etc.? (for your return, in case your partner looses her job, kids want to go to DE university, etc.) • How will you establish credit? Remember, you are starting with no credit history so large purchases (car, etc.) will be difficult. Especially in the USA where credit is the norm. • Will you rent or buy a home? Can you qualify for a mortgage and if so, when? • How can you obtain a US drivers license? (e.g., Can your DE one be instantly swapped for a NJ one? Or will you have to take a drivers test? If so, does that require you pay for drivers school? Does your new license have restrictions on car types that you can drive and for how long?) • Is your partner’s company paying for shipping of your furniture, etc.? Or will you buy everything new? What about electronics that need to be replaced? (e.g., vacuum cleaners, kettles, etc.) • What is the best visa for you & your partner? *warning*: Do some research or pay for independent legal counsel here. Remember that the types of visas that your partner’s company will suggest/initially sponsor may be in their best interests and not yours. Can you qualify for a visa independent of your spouse? (i.e., so that your whole family isn’t 100% dependent on your partner being at her current employer.) Are there any preferential visas available to you via DE/USA treaties? (E.g., E1/E2, etc.) This area can be really expensive to fix afterwards, so make sure you get what’s best for you. • Is your partner’s company paying for “home visits”? (e.g., return flights to DE 2x a year, etc.) If so, for how long? The above is just a starting point, but I’m sure the “global mobility industry” has others to be found.
drstewart 4y ago
Note that there are 2-3 posters in this thread spamming it with their opinions to push a certain narrative.
npt1234 4y ago
Why? Berlin is much nicer :-)
TheMog 4y ago
A couple of comments as a European who lives and works in the US: - I'm surprised that you find salaries lower in the US than in Europe. That said, if you compared freelance/consulting rates to salaries, that's Apples and Oranges. If you compare salaried positions, even on the East Coast, the salaries should be noticeably higher than in Germany. The extremely high compensation that people in some posts are talking about are generally found in a few, extremely high cost of living areas on the West Coast. - I would expect AWS focused cloud migration consulting to be in demand in the US more or less the same way it is in Europe. That said, you'll be in competition with the usual consulting/outsourcing suspects and with no network, that might be a bit of an issue. - The big financial hit for freelancers over here tends to be health insurance, and that's going to be rather expensive at your age (I'm a few years older than you). If your wife's job does offer health insurance for both of you, that's a major bonus. In fact that's pretty much what keeps me from freelancing with 30+ years experience (I used to freelance in Europe). - Yes, there are differences in the quality of life over here. Not all of it is applicable to freelancers for whom paid vacation time isn't a thing, but it's a different mentality when it comes to work here for a lot of people. To put not too fine a point to it, yes, your age can be an issue. Despite age discrimination being illegal, it's still rampant in this industry. OTOH I don't have that many problems finding work, and I work with a few people who are older than me and also don't have those issues. A lot of it depends on the company you're working for or with - some of them are looking for cheap young cannon fodder, others are willing to pay for experience and deal with grumpy old people :). The other question you need to answer for yourself is the motivation for moving over here, even temporarily. If you're looking to make untold riches quickly, it's probably not that great an idea. While you should be able to at least match your German income over here, it might take a few years to get back to that level.
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
Let me give you a less doom and gloom outlook than I’m seeing here :) I’m a native born American who has spent a few years living in a developing country. USA can be a great place to call home. I can’t explain how much I missed the friendliness of people here when living abroad. Not hearing “how are you” and not seeing smiles for years made my heart cold. It’s just so lovely how easy it is to talk to strangers here. If you’re able to move over, I’d sincerely recommend hitting the road and seeing everything usa has to offer on a series of road trips. You and your wife will love it!
2143 4y ago
Are you permanently moving, or is it likely to be temporary (a few years at most)? I suppose not too much can go wrong. I have a feeling quality of life might be slightly lower, compared to what I'm told about Berlin. If you don't like it you can move back. Despite what you hear on the news about the internal issues there, my opinion (based on spending a few years there) is that America is a cool place.
rurban 4y ago
I moved also with 50 for 3 years, and it made sense to me then. Of course I'm happily back. NY pays good, the rest in the East not so, comparable to Germany. Living in third world countries is always interesting. free-lancing is easy, but also easy to find (and loose) a job. you'd might get a H1-B, which means you would be tied to a company. Or a O1, then you are free to choose. everybody can get a O1 there, you just need some references of excellence. eg for dancing in strip clubs, or doing DJ'ing.
pipeline_peak 4y ago
All I can say is, spend a great amount of time reading and watching videos about the wonderful state of New Jersey and its natural landmark the Nee Jersey Turnpike.
etempleton 4y ago
Interesting to hear peoples perception of America on here. A lot seems to be based off a short visit or reading online comments of disgruntled Americans. Additionally, some of the issues outlined, such as the gym membership issue, I have never experienced in my entire life nor know anyone who has had that issue. If you have visited you probably went to one of 3-4 cities or a tourist attraction, neither is really indicative of how most Americans live.
- Daishiman 4y ago
  How about us who have lived in the US and have been coming and going since the 90s as well as having done that in a few places in Europe too? The 90s were peak US. The last 6 years have seen a very, very quick decline.
ostenning 4y ago
Why not contract remotely from The States, keeping your client base in the EU?
quadcore 4y ago
Making your wife happy will certainly makes you happy. So if your wife is super excited about this, just follow her for the best or worse. Youll be together so youll be fine. Id tell her that you will follow her wherever she goes. Its cliche I know but wouldnt you want to hear the same?
ots 4y ago
I'm an European IT professional who lives on the East Coast for more than a decade. You for sure can find 6-12 months gigs, but my experience is that it will take time to find the good ones, that pay well and don't treat their contractors as second class citizens. You need to build a network and that may take years. Also ageism in IT industry exists. For people over 50 the expectation is one to be in the management or maybe in very niche industry that has high demand for IT professionals. I think your quality of life will go south in NJ. You should look into this from many angles and payment is only one of them.

Omniusaspirer 4y ago

The inherent view so many Europeans have of the US based solely on news or anecdotes from expats is pretty amusing sometimes. Nobody is getting a lawyer just to sign up at a gym, and our incomes are comically higher for skilled persons than European salaries. I literally make 10 times what my French counterpart would in my profession and with a much lower tax rate so the real difference is even larger. I could work for 5 years and retire in France wealthier than if I had worked a 40 year career in France. Would I rather be disabled or unemployed in France? Probably, but that's not exactly the HN audience.

Tainnor 4y ago
> Would I rather be disabled or unemployed in France? Probably, but that's not exactly the HN audience. But it's also about knowing that your friends, your family, the people who make your coffee, the people you meet in the park etc. will have a safety net to fall back on. I do think that I'm not the only person who finds that reassuring. re. the "I make more money", I realise as a person without kids, I have a skewed perspective but I don't find myself lacking a lot in life. I don't understand the obsession with wanting to get as rich as possible, and if society provides for a lot of things (including kids' college tuition) you may not need to save as much.
- Omniusaspirer 4y ago
  It's less the desire to be grotesquely wealthy and more than ability to work less time for the same quality of life. I've taken several 6+ month breaks between contracts now and they gave a lot of clarity and perspective to what life could be. Time is our most valuable and limited asset.
  - Tainnor 4y ago
    Many people in Europe, at least in the tech sector, seem to work less overall, whereas when I worked for an American company, our colleagues over there seemed to routinely work overtime, be on call without compensation etc. I work 32h a week, I earn enough money for myself and I feel that my work-life-balance is pretty good. I think I prefer this to working really hard for 10-15 years, almost burning out and retire and do nothing.
morelisp 4y ago
You've begged the question a little by choosing France, a country with roughly the same cost of living as the US or Germany, but with programmer salaries more in line with smaller or eastern European countries. It's true French programmers may be able to swing 10x in (parts of) the US, but they can find 2-5x just by moving to Germany or northern Europe.

teekert 4y ago

I’ve been to the US a couple times for work (all over), always travelled around a bit. I found the people to very, very warm and kind everywhere. Racial segregation is sometimes too real in some places but the black people there seem so positively surprised and very kind when you ask them something as a white dude, it’s easy and rewarding to just be the change you want to see in that respect. The only reservation I’d have is about the healthcare system especially as you grow older. Maybe get well informed about good insurance.

diognesofsinope 4y ago
Federal government literally spends over $1T on healthcare for the elderly. The healthcare issues in the country have never been about the old.
- teekert 4y ago
  Oh that’s good to hear, I got the impression it was only good as a veteran.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  What are you talking about, health care for the elderly is terrible! I guess you've never had to take care of an old person in the US? And never been exposed to northern European healthcare?
  - feet 4y ago
    You bring up a good point, even though the US spends the most per capita on health care we actually have the worst outcomes https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0252_health_outcomes_spending https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0252_health_outcomes_spen...
    - kongolongo 4y ago
      Every time this stat is brought up I always think it doesn't convey the full context. Even though its in terms of per capita, it's still an absolute amount, I think a better data point to illustrate if the US was overspending compared to outcomes would be what % of disposable income is spent on healthcare vs outcomes. For example, let's say the US spent 2x on healthcare as some country, but had 4x the disposable income, would this still be overspending or would it be more efficient given the amount relative to income? The closest I can find is health spending as % of GDP but that doesn't capture what a person's income, since it includes government spending too, so it obfuscates whether or not the inefficiency (if any) lies in private or public healthcare in the US.
      - feet 4y ago
        Why would that even matter?
        ipaddr 4y ago
        Things cost more in some places so you need to account for that variation. A million could pay for 3 / 4 doctors in the US or 30 / 40 in Africa.
        feet 4y ago
        You say this like the profit seeking in the US is some sort of natural phenomenon that we can't avoid. We can adjust costs based in cost of living and local currency, profiteering is what sucks resources out of the system Physicians in the US are protected, there's only a limited number of slots every year in med schools. This is fake scarcity
        kongolongo 4y ago
        Let's say the US spent 2x on healthcare as some country, but had 4x the disposable income, would this still be overspending or would it be more efficient given the amount relative to income? Healthcare spending in $ per capita doesn't capture how much people earn in that country or how much of a burden it is relative to their income so its kinda meaningless without more context. It's like saying the US economy is better than 85% of the OECD because its in the top 5 gdp per capita.
        feet 4y ago
        "Disposable income" is undefined, its super vague and we can't determine anything with that phrase Most people in the US don't have "disposable income" from my perspective
        kongolongo 4y ago
        There's a very consistent definition for what that means with plenty of papers and institutions that use use roughly the same definition. Here's one phrasing of it by the OECD[1]. Basically it's just income minus taxes, what part of that is remotely vague? Discretionary income might be an even better measure but that has more wiggle room on defining what is a necessity and not. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm [1]
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      I bet sugar has a lot to do with it
  - lazide 4y ago
    I think the issue isn’t the wilingness to spend. It’s the lack of willingness to make it effective.
    - feet 4y ago
      The reason its not effective is because most of the money doesn't actually do anything, that's literally what profit is Profiteering leeches resources from a system to benefit a small number of people at the expense of the rest of the healthcare system In my opinion, please excuse my language, but it's fucking insane
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        Unfortunately it's starting to happen here too. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to make these arguments at the rate we're privatizing and contracting out things... Might end up just as bad here in the long term.
        feet 4y ago
        It's the whole reason for the UK tube strikes right now too, and the media is trying to paint the union guy as some Marxist villain when they just want decent wages The whole thing is totally absurd and short sighted, it's damaging to society. This is why there's more stability in some EU countries. We shouldn't be sacrificing stability for profits, that's a terrible idea. We need a stable populace to make stable progress and have a robust system that lasts for generations
      - lazide 4y ago
        In my experience, it’s often even worse - there often isn’t even any significant profit, at least not in any coherent, centralized way. There are a lot of individual players who can be pointed out, but none of them individually is ‘the problem’. Absolutely massive amounts of value is destroyed (and patients harmed) just doing super inefficient shitty processes because no one has the ability or incentive to do any better at a systemic level. Everyone in the system who has a degree of control gets paid very well keeping the wheels turning and consuming cash.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Medicare still has costs to the policyholder and it also requires supplemental insurance for coverage of things like eyes, teeth, hearing aids, long term care, etc.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  They will just send you home to die when you become a burden to them. Happens all the time, old folks just get told to pound sand and die and no one does shit about it.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
christophilus 4y ago
> the black people there seem so positively surprised and very kind when you ask them something as a white dude Where were you? I live and grew up in the south east, and have always chatted with my black neighbors / clerks / coworkers / etc when out and about. It’s so normal that I can’t imagine a response of surprise.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  I'm here in the south too, and the way my friends up north and out west talk, they seem almost more segregated than the south.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    Private schools--or neighborhoods with a good school system--are basically about segregation. Every single black child I've ever seen--with one notable exception--had a super arrogant streak, in one case it was a one-time thing, in every other case like holy shit (though another one I sometimes had good conversations with, it just varied). Like out of nowhere, spitting in my path in US--that's racial bullying on their part, they're trying to impress white boys--literal white boys, white males under the age of 18--that they can even intimidate white men. So then what? What's the endgame of those underage black boys? What are they trying to accomplish? Whom else are they trying to impress? And so then you just want to avoid them, because nobody can punish them without undergoing that which Americans and especially Californians are most afraid of--being accused of racism. California is built with this form of segregation in mind--highways, no sidewalks, no public bathrooms, extortionate rent (huge percentage of income, 40% is common) with the homelessness that is its direct consequence, crazy zoning (you could economically build 60-story skyscrapers anywhere in Palo Alto), concrete everywhere with many places inaccessible except by car, hospitals out to fuck you, firmatage, terrible public transport--all out of fear of harm from minorities which can believe it or not be out to get whites--have that specific intent of harming whites, and they get convicted for hate crimes but those crimes never make the news--which they never punish, only prevent.
  - nextos 4y ago
    I am European, I have stayed in the US many times and I think some parts of Europe have more racial problems than the US. For example, I have some Asian friends who used to work with me in Scandinavia and moved to the East Coast as they felt like second class citizens. Another big problem in Europe is the way talent is valued. It is much more important to have good connections and to belong to the upper class. Simply compare the salaries between engineers here and there. Only management gets a good compensation. This explains why innovation is somewhat stifled. Things are changing and there are some exceptions. For example, Switzerland shares many of the desirable traits of EU and US, but few of their issues. Stockholm and Berlin have nice startup scenes, and so on. However, the rate of change has slowed down dramatically due to COVID, the housing bubble and inflation rates.
the_third_wave 4y ago
> the black people there seem so positively surprised and very kind when you ask them something as a white dude In ~1999 I was in New York, walking around with a sizeable backpack and asked around in Harlem where to find the Sugar Hill hostel. I'd asked two men about where to find it when I was approached by two young women who advised me not to ask these questions here as that would not be safe. I was rather surprised by this since I thought that time was past. Maybe it was the location, maybe it was the backpack but it was not what I'd expected. I found the hostel by myself and came to no harm in any way or shape. I'm "white" (more of a shade of tan, really), everyone else in this narrative is "black" (more of a shade of brown, really).
- armitron 4y ago
  I wouldn't try the same thing today.
  - nemothekid 4y ago
    Odd comment given how that area of Harlem is much much safer today than it was in the 90s
- guenthert 4y ago
  Funny, I (as white as it gets, melanin deficit disorder) stayed at the Sugar Hill Hostel for a couple of days (around labour day -- found it difficult then to leave the city on bus or train) in '98. An African American man walked me to the hostel in an apparent effort to ensure my safety. He pointed out that there are different shades of black skin, which I found a bit sad (the pointing out part). The area seemed actually fairly safe, but the fellow was nice enough to chat with. The Hostel itself was not all that remarkable (other than the lack of air conditioning at that time of the year), but the crowd there was interesting, quite an experience. Thanks for jogging my memories ;-)
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    After my stay in the hostel I went for a long hike in the Catskills - where a porcupine ate my candles during a night in a lean-to - after which I returned there to pick up a friend from JFK with whom I proceeded to hike around and over Mt. Washington - where a squirrel found the bag of food which I hung in a tree to keep it from the bears, it ripped my sleeping bag stuffing bag to shreds - to return to NYC. From the long night conversations with an 19yo Israeli girl who I managed to talk out of hitch-hiking solo through the US through staying in a rather rickety apartment in the Bronx (large cockroaches in the sink in the morning, etc) with a Brazilian, an Irishman, an American woman and (another) Dutchman, it was an interesting trip. I've staid there on other trips as well, it being (at least back then) an affordable and relatively central location. Never missed the AC, maybe 'cause I'm not used to it being present?
demygale 4y ago
We have really good insurance and now that my partner needs treatment for a chronic illness, they are denying the treatment. It’s lowering her quality of life, may lead to her death, and it’s absolutely standard operating procedure for insurance companies. It’s a delaying tactic. Healthcare is hard here.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  The only reason insurance would (legally) be able to deny treatment is if there is no good efficacy data. If your doctors say there is supporting data for the treatment they are recommending, then filing and appeal is an option. https://www.healthcare.gov/appeal-insurance-company-decision/appeals/ https://www.healthcare.gov/appeal-insurance-company-decision... I believe it works similarly in countries with taxpayer funded healthcare. Some group of people at some point in the process decide what is eligible to be paid for by the government.

seibelj 4y ago

This is hilariously inaccurate and essentially a stereotype perceived from the Reddit front page. Europe is experiencing legions of issues including runaway inflation, a government and social safety net that is rapidly becoming unaffordable, a migrant crisis that is causing their own racial issues that they pretend don’t exist but are causing huge polarization and the rise of right-wing parties, a business climate that has produced essentially zero large companies in decades, and on and on.

a-dub 4y ago

> Stay here, make this moderately good place even better. or better yet, come to the us and bring your good influence to help get this troubled place back on track. the political situation in the united states is indeed complex and troubled, but the influence and impact of the united states on western nations is undeniable. if it does implode in some horrific way, it's hard to imagine a scenario where it doesn't drag the rest of the west down with it.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
If you preach to a voting base who will vote against you at every turn, good influence has no value. You can only go where you are welcome to share, where ideas can be safely and intelligently discussed, and reasonable people can come to some sort of compromise or a solution all can agree on. US politics have become too polarized, where constituents don't want solutions (evidenced by them voting for representatives who don't vote in the public interest, or who publicly gloat about hurting the other side through policy), and no one person has the power to move the needle (not to mention Citizen's United where the wealthy can pour unfathomable amounts of fiat into races to back their candidates and their politics). Know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. EDIT: And it's not just the elected. A SCOTUS Justice motivated purely by hate. https://www.businessinsider.com/clarence-thomas-told-clerks-he-wants-to-make-liberals-miserable-2022-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/clarence-thomas-told-clerks-... https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/27/us/2-years-after-his-bruising-hearing-justice-thomas-can-rarely-be-heard.html https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/27/us/2-years-after-his-brui... > Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas told his law clerks in the '90s that he wanted to serve for 43 years to make liberals' lives 'miserable' (us citizen leaving for western europe)
- a-dub 4y ago
  > Know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. i understand and appreciate the desire to walk away. it's the classic, quiet, dignified and usually effective response to insanity. (and american politics, for the last 6 years at least, has been nothing short of insanity) but unfortunately i don't think it works that way. i think that leaving only serves to both export polarization and make matters worse. i suspect the us is too big and the world is too small.
- MandieD 4y ago
  Please make sure to keep voting after you move, as much as it might feel like spitting in the wind and yet another annual hassle - you really have to stay on top of both your voter registration, as well as your annual overseas ballot request, at least for Texas (every state has different voting from abroad policies, even different policies for military vs. non) The official government website to help you navigate this is fvap.gov. The Democrats Abroad one that provides even more handholding and optional nagging: votefromabroad.org. They’ve only ever called to remind me that elections were occurring in Texas, and early enough that I could work out ballot issues, and then a follow-up a week or so before I really need to have that ballot in the mail. I’m a semi-rural Texas voter who regularly has unsatisfying conversations with Ted Cruz’s snotty staffers and John Cornyn’s slightly politer ones, hanging up the phone to go enjoy the life I’ve made for myself in southern Germany.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    > Please make sure to keep voting after you move Absolutely. My geography does not absolve me of my responsibility to do so.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  Complaining about polarization and people not wanting solutions is fine, but saying "A SCOTUS Justice motivated purely by hate." isn't helping matters. It is just continuing the very thing you are complaining about.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    If you are doing something out of malice for decades to a group of people, that is hate, and I will call it out as such. Your false equivalency holds no water, and while I provided receipts in my original comment, I’ll let Rep. Jeffries do some lifting here. https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3485737-hakeem-jeffries-to-clarence-thomas-why-are-you-such-a-hater/ https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3485737-hakeem-jeffries-t... > Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY) this week blasted Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas for his stance on a number of issues facing the court, including abortion rights. “Let me ask this question of brother Thomas,” Jeffries said during a House Judiciary Committee hearing this week. “Why are you such a hater? Hate on civil rights. Hate on women’s rights. Hate on reproductive rights. Hate on voting rights. Hate on marital rights. Hate on equal protection under the law. Hate on liberty and justice for all. Hate on free and fair elections. Why are you such a hater?” See? Hate.
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure quoting somebody who is calling somebody a hater is not proof they are a hater. Even if Thomas is a hater calling him out is just leading to more polarization.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]

cromka 4y ago

> Food is cheap and plentiful. The portion sizes are twice as large for the same equivalent price as the EU :). As someone who moved from EU to the US for 6 years and recently got back: the quality of the food is way lower there, though. As in: food standards imposed are significantly lower. I ended buying mostly organic food at Costco after my body significantly changed within first 6 months. EDIT: don't know why I am being downvoted: the food standards difference is based on actual facts, not my personal experience, it doesn't take a lot of googling to compare the sheer numbers. Or if you're lazy just consider the mere fact that salmonella is still a thing in the US, which is why all eggs are washed before the sale.

trh0awayman 4y ago
Food standards might be lower, but I would argue that the food quality is better, depending on the country in the EU. Here in Germany, 25% of meat bought in grocery stores doesn't follow the most basic of butchering standards set forth: https://www.ua-bw.de/pub/beitrag.asp?subid=0&Thema_ID=2&ID=2069&Pdf=No&lang=EN https://www.ua-bw.de/pub/beitrag.asp?subid=0&Thema_ID=2&ID=2... What you get in the US is choice - and as a software engineer, you have the money to make those choices. Shop at Whole Foods, not the local gas station, and you will see there is a world of difference. That's one mistake I see Europeans make - they apply a European world view to the US, and don't understand the wide spectrum of choices. Here in Europe, most things are equal or about the same. This mentality is even applied to universities (ask a German which university is "the best", and you will receive a confused look). Whether you think all of this is morally correct is a different question.
- morelisp 4y ago
  For a fair comparison, what percentage of meat bought in US grocery stores follows the most basic German butchering standards? It's true that any given German grocery store has fewer choices than any given US one, but extrapolating that to "there are no choices" is absurd. Germany has more choices of grocery store, and in both countries if you really want good meat you go to a real butcher (definitely not Whole Foods) anyway. Your comment about universities must be a joke, or your social circle lacks any kind of discrminating ability. I've had multiple conversations with a dozen Germans about exactly this topic in the past month regarding our recruitment/hiring practices.
  - trh0awayman 4y ago
    I don't know the statistics, but I've never encountered bone splinters in any meat I've ever eaten in the US. As for the universities, it's not like I made this up. I'm well aware of the broad differences in quality of education (and futhermore, healthcare) here, but my comment wasn't about me and this is not an invention of mine, it is a widely held belief: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/comments/ay5nrs/which_universities_do_germans_consider/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/comments/ay5nrs/which_un... I also didn't say "there are no choices", so I don't know who you're quoting here. What I was trying to explain is the European worldview being applied to the US, where there is much vaster inequality between universities, products, income, etc. I didn't attempt to make a value judgement about it, I was trying to show a common pitfall of Europeans arriving in the US: it's important that you know where you're shopping, it's important that you know where you're going to school, and it's important that you know what neighborhood you're in. In Germany, you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime.
    - morelisp 4y ago
      A reddit thread with 15 comments, several of which disagree with your claim, is not a "widely held belief"! > you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime. This is unreal. Is this some Bavarian bullshit? Nobody in the north believes it.
    - fileeditview 4y ago
      > In Germany, you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime I was never to the US and maybe it is worse there. Don't want to compare but your statement is just plain wrong and the people always telling this as a mantra just never have lived in a bad neighborhood and/or do not have kids.
Markoff 4y ago
washed refrigerated eggs are pretty standard also in many European countries, that's not exactly helping your argument though I agree US standards are lower than EU
- cromka 4y ago
  Well, washing eggs nor refrigerating pre-purchase cannot be standard, because it's pretty much forbidden: "4.3. Washing of eggs The practice of washing eggs of class A for human consumption is forbidden by the European Union legislation." https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:52003DC0479 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:52... Class A eggs are basically the only type you'd buy for consumption. I, for one, have not once found Class B eggs in a store. AFIK Class B are used in food manufacturing only.
  - Markoff 4y ago
    Then why are eggs refridgerated if they are not washed? Also I wonder what is definition of washing, because often eggs I buy are perfectly clean.
    - cromka 4y ago
      Class A eggs are also forbidden from refrigeration, because unwashed eggs can develop mildew and contaminate other products. Everywhere I bought eggs in EU, they were on the regular store shelf, not in refrigerator. I don't know what's your definition of perfectly clean, but eggs in EU are not perfectly clean in comparison to the US ones. The latter look like they're literally bleached. Not a single spot on the shell. The eggs I buy in EU, code 0-2, are quite dirty, with residue on them.
      - Markoff 4y ago
        So that's definitely wrong most likely same as washed eggs ban, because at least in Czechia in Slovakia you will find them refridgerated in every single supermarket and in plenty other EU countries, I remember even discussion about this on HN. By perfectly clean I mean perfectly smooth surface without any dirt or anything attached to shell, maybe they differ between brushing and washing.

guerrilla 4y ago

> anti American comments in this thread It's weird that describing things accurately is considered "anti-American." The question was answered multiple times though: If he does get a higher salary, much is going to be wasted on making up for deficiencies of the US that may be invisible to a German (especially wrt. health, food quality, security, social services, etc.)

nbzso 4y ago
It is not weird. It is normal. Billions of dollars spent for propaganda of American dream. And it is global. This is the power of an utopian idea. People need belief in the success. Critical thinking was never popular, but nowadays is the exception of the rule.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > It is not weird. It is normal. Billions of dollars spent for propaganda of American dream. And it is global. This is the power of an utopian idea. People need belief in the success. Critical thinking was never popular, but nowadays is the exception of the rule. Yeah, definitely, but you'd still expect people here to do better. Nobody who hasn't lived in both even needs to comment really.
binarymax 4y ago
The top comment is about as anti-American as it can get. Apparently we’re all drug addicts and burning our own houses to the ground. It’s important to generalize for the sake of the OPs questions, but saying nonsense doesn’t help anyone.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  That's what I'm talking about, it's just a completely accurate description and you're freaking out saying it said things that it didn't say! Zero things in it are false, but what you're claiming is: > massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues This is a fact and it's not "[you're] all drug addicts and burning your own houses to the ground." The only way you can get upset is to straw man it really hard.
  - binarymax 4y ago
    I find it hilarious that you think I’m freaking out. I’m laying in bed listening to the birds chirp, trying to provide some level commentary. I read the top comment and chuckled hard. It’s not even close to real. Social media is amplifying some really skewed info. Try living here, it’s beautiful.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      I lived there half my life. It's a wasteland in comparison. That's how I know from first-hand experience and immersion in both sets of media that this isn't about "skewed info" but a complete lack of info for some people who have never lived somewhere they're comparing their country with. This guy is asking about where to go be old, which is a real thing that's going to effect his life... to me going back to the US as an old person is a nightmare. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, especially in the current state of deterioration.
      - helloworld11 4y ago
        first hand experience = anecdote, which in turn means it's a completely,m worthlessly unreliable indicator of a general factual and statistical situation. You're confusing your specific impression from your life in a very tiny part of the vast tapestry that is the United States with a massive generalization that you claim is factual. Anyone here claiming that the Americans suffer from X or Y awful thing at absurd levels should actually try backing it up with a link or two to hard data that shows how much more these bad things apply to Americans than they do to those living in the (apparently) European paradise. As one comment a bit further down notes (no link to a source but at least they make a statistical claim) French people are on average among the world's biggest users of psych medication.
    - Daishiman 4y ago
      It might be beautiful _for you_. Nobody's saying you can't find a lot of beautiful places and experiences in the US. But it's marred by a degree of neuroticism that explains why so many people I know in the US have friends with issues with drug dependency and overuse (prescribes and illegal), health issues, and vibe that goes between depressing and fake.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

christophilus 4y ago
A few last thoughts: NJ can be pretty expensive. My family there spent more per month on property taxes than I spent in a year on mortgage, property tax, and insurance combined on a larger home in SC. I’m not sure if you have a choice in what city you are choosing, but if you do, it pays to shop around, so to speak. If you’re willing to forego freelancing there are some great remote-first companies that will pay you well. Elastic is an absolutely amazing place to work, and they have a decent German cohort, too.
arroz 4y ago
Why do you find Berlin a messed up city?
- rurban 4y ago
  Because it's a dirty, messed up hell hole, in comparison to the rest of Germany.
MandieD 4y ago
You mentioned supporting your kids with school. University is quite expensive in the US compared to Germany, even if your children decide to go to an “in-state” college. You might want to look into that, especially if they will be out regular school age within the next ten years.
dougmwne 4y ago
I looked at your comment history, because I was thinking , “wow that guy must have it pretty good in Berlin.” And yes, as you say, you have a very very high purchase power in Berlin. I think you will find that it will be quite expensive in NJ to replicate your quality of life as you are not nearly as far up the income percentiles for the NYC metropolitan area. We spend part of the year in Warsaw and feel like kings, then we go back to Florida and feel distinctly more plebeian. I would say everyone can adapt, but for example if you wanted to replicate the amenities in Berlin you will find yourself in an extraordinarily expensive and near-unicorn walkable neighborhood. If you prefer a car based life then your cost of living in rural NJ will be much lower (and you will also probably be able to afford a nicer car without all those auto and fuel taxes). I don’t know much about the relative school quality for your kids, but do know that in the US schools are funded locally so people spend a lot to be in the zone of a desirable school or otherwise go private. Since the difference between good and bad schools can be enormous, you will end up paying for this one way or another.

seibelj 4y ago

Norway has 5 million people, insane gas reserves, is a monoculture of ethnically similar people, has basically no immigration to speak of, and owns 2% of every publicly traded country worth a damn. I can’t believe anyone would point to this country smaller than a single metro area of the USA as something that is replicable.

Daishiman 4y ago
Ok, take Spain. Quality of life there is just substantially better than pretty much all of the US.
- seibelj 4y ago
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      Can you name a country who hasn't done bad things?
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        Can you name another country that's done bad things to other countries for every year of its existence aside from a decade?
        _-david-_ 4y ago
        UK
        guerrilla 4y ago
        Well, that was the British Empire, but I'll give it to you... fair enough.
        _-david-_ 4y ago
        The UK has continued doing bad things. So has almost every country.
        helloworld11 4y ago
        The USSR. (I know, doesn't exist anymore) but I can't think of a single year of its existence in which it wasn't occupying, invading or repressing some subject foreign nationality or population in some way, usually many of them simultaneously.
  - Daishiman 4y ago
    I see you've never even seen the population of immigrants in Spain.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  In what way? Do people live on huge ranches / estates, walk through large redwood trees, ski down a glacier, watch professional football/hockey/basketball live? Can they hunt, fish, shoot or run into hollywood celebrities? Can they even buy a house or do they have to settle for an apartment? Quality of live might be great in Barcelona if you like to drink and eat and want to work less. But Spain is so small comoared to the US. The US has so much more variety.. deserts, tundra, forests, palm trees, rocky mountains, cities..
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > In what way? Do people live on huge ranches / estates, walk through large redwood trees, ski down a glacier, watch professional football/hockey/basketball live? Can they hunt, fish, shoot or run into hollywood celebrities? What... world do you live in that Europeans* can't do all of that except the last? > Can they even buy a house or do they have to settle for an apartment? Of course... wtf? lol 76% of people own their homes in Spain. Home ownership in the US is only 65%... * Spanish people can go anywhere in the EU with just an ID, no passport needed, just like in the US.
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      Spain is much smaller than Europe and houses are much smaller and salaries are smaller and the political divide is much worse in Spain. Two different states want out and after a vote they arrested the head of state for those regions. The legacy of Franco..
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        Did you check your numbers this time or are you still just making things up? I'm going to trust you know nothing about the politics of Spain and ignore that comment. > Two different states want out and after a vote they arrested the head of state for those regions. The legacy of Franco.. You must be trolling. You literally had a civil war for the same exact reason... Unfortunately, no state allows any subset of itself to secede.
    - 4y ago
guerrilla 4y ago
> is a monoculture of ethnically similar people, has basically no immigration to speak This isn't even true (immigration accounts for half of Norway's population growth) but let's take a more extreme example: Sweden, the country with 7th highest quality of life on planet Earth yet every 1 in 11 people is an immigrant. This single case proves your generalization wrong. Every 16th person is a first generation immigrant originating from outside of Europe. You seem completely ignorant of the fact that we took hundreds of times more immigrants per capita than any country on Earth yet we all dominate the fuck out of ALL of quality of live rankings.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Norway's population grew under 50,000 which means they welcomed 20,000.. Cities like Toronto are welcoming 10 - 15 times more people from a much wider variety of places. The ethnicities in Norway are recorded as Norwegian 83.2%, other European 8.3%, other 8.5% Your vision of Norway and the numbers don't lineup. 92.9% of people are white..
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    I think you misread what I said.