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> I don't think that's the argument the earlier post is making. They are arguing that you cannot be compelled to do something to save some else's life even if i

> I don't think that's the argument the earlier post is making. They are arguing that you cannot be compelled to do something to save some else's life even if it won't harm you, and doubly so without due process. Choosing not to kill a fetus != saving someone else's life Using the two interchangeably is like building a house on top of sand

gusgus01 4y ago
Following the viewpoint of the parent commenter, you are not choosing to kill the fetus. You are choosing to stop letting the fetus have residence inside your body (your property) and choosing to stop providing it with free nourishment. It's the lack of the fetus's ability to fend for itself that causes it to perish.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  This is in line with my argument, but I actually mean something more direct than that. I mean you have the right to kill someone living inside of you, because you have property rights over your body and rights to the security of your person. Before viability, the only means of evicting a fetus, or in other words securing your person, is to kill the fetus. I think that is a fundamental right. Just as you have the right to defend your home with lethal force, you also have the right to evict by lethal force a fetus. I don't think it does us any good to shy aways from the uncomfortable aspects of t he free exercise of these rights.
  - i5Aj7PXGjUPy 4y ago
- i5Aj7PXGjUPy 4y ago
  - teolandon 4y ago
    Those two situations are not comparable. Obviously there are alternative options to safely get the starving child in your house help. You can easily call the police, CPS, etc to take care of it with no danger to your own body. You cannot do the same with a fetus inside your body.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    You aren’t compelled to allow someone to stay in your home just because you previously invited them in. Ideally, people would successfully use other means of contraception and they VAST majority of the time they do. But there are myriad reasons someone may come to the decision that they cannot carry a child to term. I firmly believe that being compelled to do so violates security in one’s person. There’s a long tradition in English common law preceding the US constitution that holds basic the same concept to be true. Historically common law allowed abortion up to the “quickening”, which today we might call viability even though it differs a bit. Fundamentally I don’t think the state should be able to tell you what to do with your own body. Many important rights flow naturally from this basic premise. I think this is a principled approach rather than working backwards from an outcome.
ch4s3 4y ago
That's precisely why I think an argument from property rights and self-ownership is more morally, legally, and philosophically sound, as I said. Your body is the most intimate and important property you have, to be secure in your person is one of the most fundamental rights. Being forced to host another life within your body and an infliction of suffering by the state, and in my view a violation of the right to security in one's person. I think that is a right that supersedes the rights any fetus may have, as unfortunate as we may feel the outcome to be. Moreover, there are a lot of places where we morally and legally permit people to kill, that doesn't mean that we like killing or condone it in general.
- i5Aj7PXGjUPy 4y ago
ch4s3 4y ago
As an aside, I appreciate that you’re engaging in good faith. I’m sure you arrive at your position through conviction, even though I strongly disagree.

gusgus01 4y ago

Following the viewpoint of the parent commenter, you are not choosing to kill the fetus. You are choosing to stop letting the fetus have residence inside your body (your property) and choosing to stop providing it with free nourishment. It's the lack of the fetus's ability to fend for itself that causes it to perish.

ch4s3 4y ago
This is in line with my argument, but I actually mean something more direct than that. I mean you have the right to kill someone living inside of you, because you have property rights over your body and rights to the security of your person. Before viability, the only means of evicting a fetus, or in other words securing your person, is to kill the fetus. I think that is a fundamental right. Just as you have the right to defend your home with lethal force, you also have the right to evict by lethal force a fetus. I don't think it does us any good to shy aways from the uncomfortable aspects of t he free exercise of these rights.
- i5Aj7PXGjUPy 4y ago
i5Aj7PXGjUPy 4y ago
- teolandon 4y ago
  Those two situations are not comparable. Obviously there are alternative options to safely get the starving child in your house help. You can easily call the police, CPS, etc to take care of it with no danger to your own body. You cannot do the same with a fetus inside your body.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  You aren’t compelled to allow someone to stay in your home just because you previously invited them in. Ideally, people would successfully use other means of contraception and they VAST majority of the time they do. But there are myriad reasons someone may come to the decision that they cannot carry a child to term. I firmly believe that being compelled to do so violates security in one’s person. There’s a long tradition in English common law preceding the US constitution that holds basic the same concept to be true. Historically common law allowed abortion up to the “quickening”, which today we might call viability even though it differs a bit. Fundamentally I don’t think the state should be able to tell you what to do with your own body. Many important rights flow naturally from this basic premise. I think this is a principled approach rather than working backwards from an outcome.

ch4s3 4y ago

That's precisely why I think an argument from property rights and self-ownership is more morally, legally, and philosophically sound, as I said. Your body is the most intimate and important property you have, to be secure in your person is one of the most fundamental rights. Being forced to host another life within your body and an infliction of suffering by the state, and in my view a violation of the right to security in one's person. I think that is a right that supersedes the rights any fetus may have, as unfortunate as we may feel the outcome to be. Moreover, there are a lot of places where we morally and legally permit people to kill, that doesn't mean that we like killing or condone it in general.

i5Aj7PXGjUPy 4y ago

ch4s3 4y ago

As an aside, I appreciate that you’re engaging in good faith. I’m sure you arrive at your position through conviction, even though I strongly disagree.