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>For example there is plenty of food to feed the entire world, but some people still go hungry. This is because having a reliable food supply everywhere is not

>For example there is plenty of food to feed the entire world, but some people still go hungry. This is because having a reliable food supply everywhere is not the same thing as growing enough food, on the aggregate, to be able to feed everyone. That's not even half of it. Distribution and logistics are key, particularly making it robust to all sorts of shocks (droughts, conflict, etc). A lot of areas experiencing famine/hunger are places with very bad governance and infrastructure. Fixing that is Hard and Expensive, and once you do they'll never go hungry again because existing food available for sale elsewhere in the world will make its way there, either always or when needed. >I don’t have the answer. But I know there’s more to it than technology and innovation. The answer is in social innovation, and half the issue is letting go of ideological baggage. Socialists need to stop having pavlovian responses to the word 'capitalism' and 'markets', and economic liberals need to stop treating markets as a sacred cow and instead think of them as one tool in a toolbox. Most importantly, we need way more experimentation.

einpoklum 4y ago
> Socialists need to stop having pavlovian responses to the word 'capitalism' and 'markets', and economic liberals need to stop treating markets as a sacred cow and instead think of them as one tool in a toolbox. Suppose I were to suggest that we think of Feudalism as a tool in the box, or Slavery/Forced labor. Some economies used to be run like that. And nobody said you have to use that "tool". The thing is - it's not really a tool, which "we" can collectively apply towards reaching accepted social ends. And neither is Capitalism.
- towaway15463 4y ago
  By that measure then neither is socialism due to the massive harm it has caused throughout history. So I guess we have no tools. I hate how people push centralized government and economies without a single shred of evidence that they have ever produced anything other than misery.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    >So I guess we have no tools. What kind of nonsense is that? We already have the tools, land value taxes and negative interest rates aka demurrage money. The solutions are trivial, and that is exactly why curing the symptoms can be nothing but complex. Demurrage money results in the neutrality of money and thereby activates a lot of economic theories that free market advocates take for granted when there is endless evidence that they don't work in a permanent money aka non neutral money system. Full employment is the default in a market economy, there is no such thing as a business cycle. It is only once you add non neutral money with the artificial zero lower bound that you get monetary cycles. If money is neutral, then debts won't have to grow eternally and there is no need to erode them with inflation.
  - FireInsight 4y ago
    > I hate how people push centralized government and economies... You must be one of those anarcho-communists.
pydry 4y ago
>This is because having a reliable food supply everywhere is not the same thing as growing enough food, on the aggregate, to be able to feed everyone. It's more that the people who cant get enough food dont have anything that the people who have an excess of it really want. Global wealth distribution is more the issue than logistics and that wealth includes legal monopolies on all the worlds most arable lands intrinsically backed by the threat of violence.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > It's more that the people who cant get enough food dont have anything that the people who have an excess of it really want. Sure they do. It's just that forefingers own everything of value in their countries and every time they elect someone to do something about it, the US violently overthrows them, covertly or overtly.[1] 1. https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md
  - pydry 4y ago
    Thats kind of another way of saying the same thing.
- towaway15463 4y ago
  Food aid is a thing. There are already organizations set up to distribute surplus food production. The problem is not that they developed world is greedy, it’s that the developing world is run mostly by criminals that are willing to steal the money and food that charities and governments try to give to people in need. What are these legal monopolies on arable land? Do you mean the countries that contain the land or something else?
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > it’s that the developing world is run mostly by criminals that are willing to steal the money and food that charities and governments try to give to people in need. This is silly. You say that as if the western countries aren't the same and didn't put those people in power...
FireInsight 4y ago
Ultimately, the ideology of not having an ideology, or centrism, favors the status quo, which is not a great way of creating the change you want to see in the world. You will always take actions depending on the results you want. Ideology serves as a way of understanding the change you want to see, and which actions are the most useful and powerful to take. Ideology can also serve as a way of finding likeminded people, promoting your ideals and organizing. Also, it's funny how you blame socialists for society not being able to fix the problems of capitalism.

einpoklum 4y ago

> Socialists need to stop having pavlovian responses to the word 'capitalism' and 'markets', and economic liberals need to stop treating markets as a sacred cow and instead think of them as one tool in a toolbox. Suppose I were to suggest that we think of Feudalism as a tool in the box, or Slavery/Forced labor. Some economies used to be run like that. And nobody said you have to use that "tool". The thing is - it's not really a tool, which "we" can collectively apply towards reaching accepted social ends. And neither is Capitalism.

towaway15463 4y ago
By that measure then neither is socialism due to the massive harm it has caused throughout history. So I guess we have no tools. I hate how people push centralized government and economies without a single shred of evidence that they have ever produced anything other than misery.
- imtringued 4y ago
  >So I guess we have no tools. What kind of nonsense is that? We already have the tools, land value taxes and negative interest rates aka demurrage money. The solutions are trivial, and that is exactly why curing the symptoms can be nothing but complex. Demurrage money results in the neutrality of money and thereby activates a lot of economic theories that free market advocates take for granted when there is endless evidence that they don't work in a permanent money aka non neutral money system. Full employment is the default in a market economy, there is no such thing as a business cycle. It is only once you add non neutral money with the artificial zero lower bound that you get monetary cycles. If money is neutral, then debts won't have to grow eternally and there is no need to erode them with inflation.
- FireInsight 4y ago
  > I hate how people push centralized government and economies... You must be one of those anarcho-communists.

pydry 4y ago

>This is because having a reliable food supply everywhere is not the same thing as growing enough food, on the aggregate, to be able to feed everyone. It's more that the people who cant get enough food dont have anything that the people who have an excess of it really want. Global wealth distribution is more the issue than logistics and that wealth includes legal monopolies on all the worlds most arable lands intrinsically backed by the threat of violence.

guerrilla 4y ago
> It's more that the people who cant get enough food dont have anything that the people who have an excess of it really want. Sure they do. It's just that forefingers own everything of value in their countries and every time they elect someone to do something about it, the US violently overthrows them, covertly or overtly.[1] 1. https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md
- pydry 4y ago
  Thats kind of another way of saying the same thing.
towaway15463 4y ago
Food aid is a thing. There are already organizations set up to distribute surplus food production. The problem is not that they developed world is greedy, it’s that the developing world is run mostly by criminals that are willing to steal the money and food that charities and governments try to give to people in need. What are these legal monopolies on arable land? Do you mean the countries that contain the land or something else?
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > it’s that the developing world is run mostly by criminals that are willing to steal the money and food that charities and governments try to give to people in need. This is silly. You say that as if the western countries aren't the same and didn't put those people in power...

FireInsight 4y ago

Ultimately, the ideology of not having an ideology, or centrism, favors the status quo, which is not a great way of creating the change you want to see in the world. You will always take actions depending on the results you want. Ideology serves as a way of understanding the change you want to see, and which actions are the most useful and powerful to take. Ideology can also serve as a way of finding likeminded people, promoting your ideals and organizing. Also, it's funny how you blame socialists for society not being able to fix the problems of capitalism.