8 ms·

The Case for a Confederal Europe

35 points by menshiki 4y ago

yessirwhatever 4y ago
- threevox 4y ago
  Counterpoint: not necessarily?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ttymck 4y ago
  > EU should dissolve itself and be rebuilt from the ground up, with one referendum this time, not two Why should the replacement union by any better than the existing one?
- collegeburner 4y ago
  Agree for the lawmaking part, though the free trade agreement is great and should be expanded.
  - yessirwhatever 4y ago
    Deregulation works
- adur1990 4y ago
  That is the most bullshit thing I heard today. The EU is an achievement that has given Europeans an incredible amount of freedom, not least the freedom of open borders. It needs to be reformed and modernized so that future generations can enjoy the same (or even more) freedoms as we do. I hope you are aware of the cynicism of speaking of tyranny in light of what is going on in Ukraine and Russia.
  - tonymet 4y ago
    the open borders come from Shengen agreement not the EU. You can drive through switzerland no problem
    - malermeister 4y ago
      And the Schengen agreement is EU law :-) That's like saying free speech in the US comes from the 1st amendment, not the constitution.
      - paganel 4y ago
        Not in Romania, it isn’t (nor in Bulgaria). I should know, as I’m from Romania.
        malermeister 4y ago
        As part of the aforementioned EU law, there's a list of countries to which it applies. The two you've mentioned aren't on it. You can look it up in the Amsterdam treaty if you'd like :) edit: here's the law for your convenience: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/SK/TXT/?uri=CELEX:11997D/PRO/02 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/SK/TXT/?uri=CELEX:11...
        paganel 4y ago
        So an EU law that doesn’t apply to the whole EU, that bodes well for a confederate project.
        malermeister 4y ago
        Isn't that what the article is arguing for though? A multi-speed Europe?
        paganel 4y ago
- mschuster91 4y ago
  Huh? EU citizen here. The EU got us a lot of stuff that is very good for its citizens: - a common currency, eliminating the need to exchange currency - remember, Europe is a lot of small countries and you can drive six hours and pass eight different countries. - a common border-control free zone ("Schengen agreement") - a common, free-of-charge mobile phone roaming area - common consumer protection laws in all areas of business, particularly data protection (GDPR), product safety (e.g. RoHS) and finance - infrastructure development across Europe (e.g. constructing trans-European highway and rail network) - a common economic market with the same standards for everyone When comparing the EU to the US, I definitely prefer the EU, as dysfunctional as it can be sometimes (especially in foreign policy and military).
  - threevox 4y ago
    Yeah idk what OP was on about, the EU is huge for allowing Europe to punch at the level of the US, China etc
  - mutatio 4y ago
    EU currency isn't necessarily good, especially the attached ECB which now has no power to increase interest rates due to a disparity of member states with economies that are impossible to reconcile in a single currency.
  - nescioquid 4y ago
    > common consumer protection laws in all areas of business As an American, every time I buy something directly from a European company online (most recently ebooks, for instance) I come away thinking "wait -- was that it"? Like I was bracing to be drenched in raw sewage and given a black eye. Might be over-generalizing from my limited experience, but I do appreciate the difference. I feel like the U.S. quit even talking about consumer protection in the 80s. So I'd say these things actually benefit more than just EU citizens!
- baybal2 4y ago
  Despite the trollish zeal of your argument, I believe this dangerous sentiment needs to be properly refuted. > The parliament is made of power hungry MPs and a commission full of elitist jackasses, with a million and one agendas An alternative to people ready to fight, and campaign for a place in parliament are people without any agency in the fate of the country, and nothing to lose if they want to massively harm the country. The worst alternative by far is to have a parliament full of uncharismatic yes-men, who would be easily dominated once some charismatic Der Fuhrer would appear.
- harperlee 4y ago
  - Government is tyrannical - Government is useless - Government dilapidates money - Politicians serve their own interests - Politicians are power hungry - Politicians are elitist jackasses - Politicians have different agendas (that they don’t reconcile) - Politicians don’t serve citizens - We need to throw all away Doesn’t seem very specific to the EU. Do you know about the Barnum effect? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect
Cupertino95014 4y ago
(Not a European, so appropriate caveats apply.) > I am an EU nerd. As a young civil servant, I was involved in negotiating the Amsterdam, Nice, and Lisbon treaties. I have always been fascinated by enlargement and institutional reform. I am an advocate of both widening and deepening. I wrote my PhD on flexible integration If some ordinary citizens of Italy, Poland, Spain, etc. were calling out for "widening and deepening" I might be more impressed. Especially if the citizens of the UK hadn't explicitly voted to leave. >This time, there is no choice. Indecision will lead to frustration and instability. There is no space for petty, low-level tinkering or domestic politics. Democracy... it's SO messy.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kmonsen 4y ago
  I agree with him that it would be the best way forward (and as a Norwegian I think Norway should join). But it seem pretty clear this is not what people want at this time, so equally clearly it is not the right thing to do as democratic countries. Trying to influence opinions is OK, forcing treaties on us is not OK. In my opinion. EU can start by building trust and transparency and perhaps look inward instead at blaming people for not trusting them.
- sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
  > If some ordinary citizens of Italy, Poland, Spain, etc. were calling out for "widening and deepening" I might be more impressed. Especially if the citizens of the UK hadn't explicitly voted to leave. Ok, I'm here then. Let me know if you have questions for me?
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  > If some ordinary citizens of Italy, Poland, Spain, etc. were calling out for "widening and deepening" I might be more impressed. Poland is an extremely pro-EU country, the support for the EU reaches 94% in large cities and 88% in the rest of the country. And Poles are very much in favor of these poorer countries joining the EU in one way or another, because everybody knows forming ties with Russia is apparently cheap, but there is always a price to pay at the end. [0] https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/majority-of-poles-want-poland-to-stay-in-eu---poll-24695 https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/majority-of-poles-want-...
at_a_remove 4y ago
One thing I found odd about the EU, once I heard about Brexit, is that it had no escape clause, no procedures for leaving. Imagine marriage, but no divorce. "Well, we'll just make sure it is perfect" isn't a handy answer. EU or replacement entity, it needs a procedure for "This isn't working, [we want out/you need to leave]."
- perakojotgenije 4y ago
  That is totally incorrect, that is what article 50 is and that is how UK left. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_U...
- arethuza 4y ago
  Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union defines the process for leaving - which is what the UK followed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_U...
  - malermeister 4y ago
    Yeah, there is a mechanism for getting out, but none for kicking out a state that is sabotaging the rest (looking at you, Hungary).
    - Proven 4y ago
- ginko 4y ago
  Well, that's what Article 50[1] was established for. Also why do you find this particularly odd? Is there a clause in the constitution for US states to leave the USA? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_U...
  - 4y ago
TheBlight 4y ago
When I take a look around it seems like the world is moving in a more decentralized direction. Sure there are superpowers but those entities are probably not as cohesive as we think-- certainly not ideologically (looking at the U.S. in particular.) Even within the monolithic traditional centralized powers we can see evidence of their control and influence waning, e.g. mass censorship campaigns, political prosecution, compulsory mandates with travel restrictions, soon new currency controls, etc.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Quite so, and there is a lot to be said for the idea of city-states making a comeback - except that the power holders in existing states are hostile to such autonomy and exert their authority first by law and then by force. Advocates of decentralization need to face up to the military problem.
  - TheBlight 4y ago
    It's not obvious to me that state-sponsored violence is a death sentence to decentralization. Solely relying on it seems like assured failure of your regime. You really need buy-in at some level. I think this is why the measures I highlighted are being so ferociously championed right now.
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      I didn't say it was. I said that advocates of decentralization need to consider its existence; there's abundant empirical evidence for why.
thriftwy 4y ago
> The key is to ensure that all willing and able European democracies have a clear and realistic path to membership or, if they do not want to join, an alternative form of cooperation. When Russian Federation could still be called a democracy it did not have that. Have you read the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale?
- gnulinux 4y ago
  Turkey was also (briefly) a functioning democracy but it also never had a "realistic" path to membership, even though it was one of the older member candidates. Turkey still is a democracy on paper, and no one knows what will happen once Erdogan dies -- it's not impossible Turkey can become a functioning democracy again, but it's not clear to me if EU would be enthusiastic to re-start membership conversations with them. I think it makes sense that EU would want to see the country maintaining peace and prosperity for a while until they're more serious about membership. This is why the recent Ukraine membership deal will not work out any time soon, it's a long game.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Yes, we've read Sleeping Beauty. What's your point? Are you saying that Russia is Sleeping Beauty? If so, why? If not, then what are you saying?
- Archelaos 4y ago
  Regarding alternative forms of cooperation: From 1996 to 2022, Russia was a member of the Council of Europe.[1] I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. But I am also very pessimistic that I will live to see it, as much as I hope I will. Under these conditions, Russia could even join NATO. [1] See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europ...
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    > I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. EU had plenty of time to prove it and did no real steps towards integration. Trying to drive a wedge between Russia and its neighbours at the same time. I'm not sure what membership in Council of Europe did for Russia. European Human Rights Court was somewhat visible but that's it.
xcambar 4y ago
Fascinating article, thanks for sharing. It is clear the the author has a deepened deep and wide vision of the options for Europe. Alas, I'm not convinced the leaders of Europe, as a bureaucracy and as a human group, share that kind of visions, or to be more optimistic, I'm not convinced they will succeed in making it prevalent. I will share the article widely, thanks for sharing.
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  It’s always messy, as what’s in the best interest for the EU as a whole may not be best for an individual country, or even a politician’s own agenda. I hope the current situation can be resolved, in the next few decades, tho. There are some fundamental collaboration / alignment issues within the EU, and I think it takes some real decisiveness from the top to resolve them.
auganov 4y ago
It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. Opposition to the EU is often branded as nationalistic or insular, yet the EU and its proponents are dedicated to keeping the people divided along national lines. It's a very strange Rube Goldberg contraption. It's unsurprising most opponents want to simply disband it - hard to come up with a workable reform plan. Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, you'll probably see more real integration but on a smaller scale.
- ginko 4y ago
  >It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). >Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, you'll probably see more real integration but on a smaller scale. It won't be dissolved.
  - auganov 4y ago
    > What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). Disbanding the EU is also not popular with the general population, yet there are many people discussing it and non-trivial political factions supporting it (yes, often they're not serious about it, but still). Where are the people pushing for a common language? My impression is most staunch EU supporters aren't just not pushing for this - they'd actively try to prevent national languages from dying.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      Several countries in the EU have multiple national languages, so it seems strange to expect an amalgamation of them all to only have one. https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.htm https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.ht...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kkfx 4y ago
Sorry but no, as an EU Citizen we need a real EU instead of a financial-only one. - We need a Constitution; - we need a common fiscal system; - we need to agree with a neutral language for documents, witch can only be an auxiliary language NOT spoken by anyone inside or outside the EU; - we need a common defence; - we need to remember that we are European till the Urals so Russia is largely Europe and have already offered more times the EAEU (EurAsian union) partnership witch is a FAIR one since we needs each others and we have industry and tech, they have land and resources with ground contiguity; - we need to rule ourselves outside the anglosphere because UK and USA governments do their OWN (rightly) interest NOT our EU interest and their "international" institutions only serve them not us; - we need to remember that an united Eurasian union is the first world power no one can break except ourselves (as it happen with two world wars in the recent past); - we need to IMPOSE by People will a Political ruling class above finance, who represent OUR interests not the interests of some criminals in Davos; - we need a Democratic model like the Swiss one where People vote every two months and there is a conscription of one month per year, 18-28 years of age, with weapons at home, so the government CAN'T go against Citizens without a bloodbath no one is interested in and so must respect people will and people must know how to protest, peaceful and armed+trained as needed, si vis pacem para bellum; ... The last thing we need is the Germany model who actually DEVASTATE Germany making it a dummy and fragile empty economical power only for very few.

35 points by menshiki 4y ago

threevox 4y ago
Counterpoint: not necessarily?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ttymck 4y ago
> EU should dissolve itself and be rebuilt from the ground up, with one referendum this time, not two Why should the replacement union by any better than the existing one?
collegeburner 4y ago
Agree for the lawmaking part, though the free trade agreement is great and should be expanded.
- yessirwhatever 4y ago
  Deregulation works
adur1990 4y ago
That is the most bullshit thing I heard today. The EU is an achievement that has given Europeans an incredible amount of freedom, not least the freedom of open borders. It needs to be reformed and modernized so that future generations can enjoy the same (or even more) freedoms as we do. I hope you are aware of the cynicism of speaking of tyranny in light of what is going on in Ukraine and Russia.
- tonymet 4y ago
  the open borders come from Shengen agreement not the EU. You can drive through switzerland no problem
  - malermeister 4y ago
    And the Schengen agreement is EU law :-) That's like saying free speech in the US comes from the 1st amendment, not the constitution.
    - paganel 4y ago
      Not in Romania, it isn’t (nor in Bulgaria). I should know, as I’m from Romania.
      - malermeister 4y ago
        As part of the aforementioned EU law, there's a list of countries to which it applies. The two you've mentioned aren't on it. You can look it up in the Amsterdam treaty if you'd like :) edit: here's the law for your convenience: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/SK/TXT/?uri=CELEX:11997D/PRO/02 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/SK/TXT/?uri=CELEX:11...
        paganel 4y ago
        So an EU law that doesn’t apply to the whole EU, that bodes well for a confederate project.
        malermeister 4y ago
        Isn't that what the article is arguing for though? A multi-speed Europe?
        paganel 4y ago
mschuster91 4y ago
Huh? EU citizen here. The EU got us a lot of stuff that is very good for its citizens: - a common currency, eliminating the need to exchange currency - remember, Europe is a lot of small countries and you can drive six hours and pass eight different countries. - a common border-control free zone ("Schengen agreement") - a common, free-of-charge mobile phone roaming area - common consumer protection laws in all areas of business, particularly data protection (GDPR), product safety (e.g. RoHS) and finance - infrastructure development across Europe (e.g. constructing trans-European highway and rail network) - a common economic market with the same standards for everyone When comparing the EU to the US, I definitely prefer the EU, as dysfunctional as it can be sometimes (especially in foreign policy and military).
- threevox 4y ago
  Yeah idk what OP was on about, the EU is huge for allowing Europe to punch at the level of the US, China etc
- mutatio 4y ago
  EU currency isn't necessarily good, especially the attached ECB which now has no power to increase interest rates due to a disparity of member states with economies that are impossible to reconcile in a single currency.
- nescioquid 4y ago
  > common consumer protection laws in all areas of business As an American, every time I buy something directly from a European company online (most recently ebooks, for instance) I come away thinking "wait -- was that it"? Like I was bracing to be drenched in raw sewage and given a black eye. Might be over-generalizing from my limited experience, but I do appreciate the difference. I feel like the U.S. quit even talking about consumer protection in the 80s. So I'd say these things actually benefit more than just EU citizens!
baybal2 4y ago
Despite the trollish zeal of your argument, I believe this dangerous sentiment needs to be properly refuted. > The parliament is made of power hungry MPs and a commission full of elitist jackasses, with a million and one agendas An alternative to people ready to fight, and campaign for a place in parliament are people without any agency in the fate of the country, and nothing to lose if they want to massively harm the country. The worst alternative by far is to have a parliament full of uncharismatic yes-men, who would be easily dominated once some charismatic Der Fuhrer would appear.
harperlee 4y ago
- Government is tyrannical - Government is useless - Government dilapidates money - Politicians serve their own interests - Politicians are power hungry - Politicians are elitist jackasses - Politicians have different agendas (that they don’t reconcile) - Politicians don’t serve citizens - We need to throw all away Doesn’t seem very specific to the EU. Do you know about the Barnum effect? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect

(Not a European, so appropriate caveats apply.) > I am an EU nerd. As a young civil servant, I was involved in negotiating the Amsterdam, Nice, and Lisbon treaties. I have always been fascinated by enlargement and institutional reform. I am an advocate of both widening and deepening. I wrote my PhD on flexible integration If some ordinary citizens of Italy, Poland, Spain, etc. were calling out for "widening and deepening" I might be more impressed. Especially if the citizens of the UK hadn't explicitly voted to leave. >This time, there is no choice. Indecision will lead to frustration and instability. There is no space for petty, low-level tinkering or domestic politics. Democracy... it's SO messy.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kmonsen 4y ago
I agree with him that it would be the best way forward (and as a Norwegian I think Norway should join). But it seem pretty clear this is not what people want at this time, so equally clearly it is not the right thing to do as democratic countries. Trying to influence opinions is OK, forcing treaties on us is not OK. In my opinion. EU can start by building trust and transparency and perhaps look inward instead at blaming people for not trusting them.
sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
> If some ordinary citizens of Italy, Poland, Spain, etc. were calling out for "widening and deepening" I might be more impressed. Especially if the citizens of the UK hadn't explicitly voted to leave. Ok, I'm here then. Let me know if you have questions for me?
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> If some ordinary citizens of Italy, Poland, Spain, etc. were calling out for "widening and deepening" I might be more impressed. Poland is an extremely pro-EU country, the support for the EU reaches 94% in large cities and 88% in the rest of the country. And Poles are very much in favor of these poorer countries joining the EU in one way or another, because everybody knows forming ties with Russia is apparently cheap, but there is always a price to pay at the end. [0] https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/majority-of-poles-want-poland-to-stay-in-eu---poll-24695 https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/majority-of-poles-want-...

at_a_remove 4y ago

One thing I found odd about the EU, once I heard about Brexit, is that it had no escape clause, no procedures for leaving. Imagine marriage, but no divorce. "Well, we'll just make sure it is perfect" isn't a handy answer. EU or replacement entity, it needs a procedure for "This isn't working, [we want out/you need to leave]."

perakojotgenije 4y ago
That is totally incorrect, that is what article 50 is and that is how UK left. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_U...
arethuza 4y ago
Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union defines the process for leaving - which is what the UK followed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_U...
- malermeister 4y ago
  Yeah, there is a mechanism for getting out, but none for kicking out a state that is sabotaging the rest (looking at you, Hungary).
  - Proven 4y ago
ginko 4y ago
Well, that's what Article 50[1] was established for. Also why do you find this particularly odd? Is there a clause in the constitution for US states to leave the USA? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_U...
- 4y ago

TheBlight 4y ago

When I take a look around it seems like the world is moving in a more decentralized direction. Sure there are superpowers but those entities are probably not as cohesive as we think-- certainly not ideologically (looking at the U.S. in particular.) Even within the monolithic traditional centralized powers we can see evidence of their control and influence waning, e.g. mass censorship campaigns, political prosecution, compulsory mandates with travel restrictions, soon new currency controls, etc.

anigbrowl 4y ago
Quite so, and there is a lot to be said for the idea of city-states making a comeback - except that the power holders in existing states are hostile to such autonomy and exert their authority first by law and then by force. Advocates of decentralization need to face up to the military problem.
- TheBlight 4y ago
  It's not obvious to me that state-sponsored violence is a death sentence to decentralization. Solely relying on it seems like assured failure of your regime. You really need buy-in at some level. I think this is why the measures I highlighted are being so ferociously championed right now.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    I didn't say it was. I said that advocates of decentralization need to consider its existence; there's abundant empirical evidence for why.

thriftwy 4y ago

> The key is to ensure that all willing and able European democracies have a clear and realistic path to membership or, if they do not want to join, an alternative form of cooperation. When Russian Federation could still be called a democracy it did not have that. Have you read the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale?

gnulinux 4y ago
Turkey was also (briefly) a functioning democracy but it also never had a "realistic" path to membership, even though it was one of the older member candidates. Turkey still is a democracy on paper, and no one knows what will happen once Erdogan dies -- it's not impossible Turkey can become a functioning democracy again, but it's not clear to me if EU would be enthusiastic to re-start membership conversations with them. I think it makes sense that EU would want to see the country maintaining peace and prosperity for a while until they're more serious about membership. This is why the recent Ukraine membership deal will not work out any time soon, it's a long game.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Yes, we've read Sleeping Beauty. What's your point? Are you saying that Russia is Sleeping Beauty? If so, why? If not, then what are you saying?
Archelaos 4y ago
Regarding alternative forms of cooperation: From 1996 to 2022, Russia was a member of the Council of Europe.[1] I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. But I am also very pessimistic that I will live to see it, as much as I hope I will. Under these conditions, Russia could even join NATO. [1] See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europ...
- thriftwy 4y ago
  > I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. EU had plenty of time to prove it and did no real steps towards integration. Trying to drive a wedge between Russia and its neighbours at the same time. I'm not sure what membership in Council of Europe did for Russia. European Human Rights Court was somewhat visible but that's it.

xcambar 4y ago

Fascinating article, thanks for sharing. It is clear the the author has a deepened deep and wide vision of the options for Europe. Alas, I'm not convinced the leaders of Europe, as a bureaucracy and as a human group, share that kind of visions, or to be more optimistic, I'm not convinced they will succeed in making it prevalent. I will share the article widely, thanks for sharing.

stingraycharles 4y ago
It’s always messy, as what’s in the best interest for the EU as a whole may not be best for an individual country, or even a politician’s own agenda. I hope the current situation can be resolved, in the next few decades, tho. There are some fundamental collaboration / alignment issues within the EU, and I think it takes some real decisiveness from the top to resolve them.

auganov 4y ago

It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. Opposition to the EU is often branded as nationalistic or insular, yet the EU and its proponents are dedicated to keeping the people divided along national lines. It's a very strange Rube Goldberg contraption. It's unsurprising most opponents want to simply disband it - hard to come up with a workable reform plan. Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, you'll probably see more real integration but on a smaller scale.

ginko 4y ago
>It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). >Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, you'll probably see more real integration but on a smaller scale. It won't be dissolved.
- auganov 4y ago
  > What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). Disbanding the EU is also not popular with the general population, yet there are many people discussing it and non-trivial political factions supporting it (yes, often they're not serious about it, but still). Where are the people pushing for a common language? My impression is most staunch EU supporters aren't just not pushing for this - they'd actively try to prevent national languages from dying.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Several countries in the EU have multiple national languages, so it seems strange to expect an amalgamation of them all to only have one. https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.htm https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.ht...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kkfx 4y ago

Sorry but no, as an EU Citizen we need a real EU instead of a financial-only one. - We need a Constitution; - we need a common fiscal system; - we need to agree with a neutral language for documents, witch can only be an auxiliary language NOT spoken by anyone inside or outside the EU; - we need a common defence; - we need to remember that we are European till the Urals so Russia is largely Europe and have already offered more times the EAEU (EurAsian union) partnership witch is a FAIR one since we needs each others and we have industry and tech, they have land and resources with ground contiguity; - we need to rule ourselves outside the anglosphere because UK and USA governments do their OWN (rightly) interest NOT our EU interest and their "international" institutions only serve them not us; - we need to remember that an united Eurasian union is the first world power no one can break except ourselves (as it happen with two world wars in the recent past); - we need to IMPOSE by People will a Political ruling class above finance, who represent OUR interests not the interests of some criminals in Davos; - we need a Democratic model like the Swiss one where People vote every two months and there is a conscription of one month per year, 18-28 years of age, with weapons at home, so the government CAN'T go against Citizens without a bloodbath no one is interested in and so must respect people will and people must know how to protest, peaceful and armed+trained as needed, si vis pacem para bellum; ... The last thing we need is the Germany model who actually DEVASTATE Germany making it a dummy and fragile empty economical power only for very few.