7 ms·

Side note: Yandex search is awesome, and I really hope they stay alive forever. It's the only functional image search nowadays, after our Google overlords neute

Side note: Yandex search is awesome, and I really hope they stay alive forever. It's the only functional image search nowadays, after our Google overlords neutered their own product out of fear over lawyers/regulation and a disdain for power users. You can't even search for images "before:date" in Google anymore.

whywhywhywhy 4y ago
Yandex Image Search is today is what Google Image Search should have been. End of the day I’ll use what actually gets the job done. Same goes for OpenAI and Google AI. If you don’t actually ever release and let others use your stuff and end paralyzed in fear at what your models may do then someone else is gonna release the same tech, and at this rate it seems like that’ll be Chinese or Russian companies who don’t share your sensibilities at all, and their models will be the ones that end up productized.
- SXX 4y ago
  OpenAI should just rebrand since nothing they do is actually open.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    You know 100 years ago you could just buy uranium openly? Leo Szílard hustled up 200 kilograms, pleted, in the 30's.
    - SXX 4y ago
      What does it have to do with OpenAI branding? Their "moral" reasoning behind not publishing models is simply laughtable because they do sell API access to them to anyone who can pay. And "bad guys" generally have money.
      - sanxiyn 4y ago
        They can (and do) revoke API access from bad guys. They can't do that to downloaded models. Look, I don't like what OpenAI does, but "API access, but no model download" makes sense if you are worried about misuses.
        ggktk 4y ago
        Bad actors still can get access to such models. It even makes them more dangerous than it would if everyone had access to them. Here's an alternative: progressively release better and better models (like 3B params, 10B, 50B, 100B) and let people figure out the best way to fight against bad actors using them.
        sanxiyn 4y ago
        > It even makes them more dangerous than it would if everyone had access to them. This is the sort of argument that proves guns would be less dangerous if everyone had access to them.
        prometheus76 4y ago
        "An armed society is a polite society" - Robert Heinlein
        CRConrad 4y ago
        He was an author of fiction. They usually write a lot of stuff that is on some deeper level "true", even though it is on the surface fictional... And a lot of stuff that isn't. Or sometimes both, because it's only part of the truth. Maybe the complete version should be: "An armed society is a 'polite' society, but with very frequent killings and not-infrequent massacres." I think I prefer living in a less "polite" society.
        adamc 4y ago
        "It even makes them more dangerous..." needs to be demonstrated, not asserted.
    - remram 4y ago
      Maybe they should rename to SafeAI, if their concern is controlling access.
      - JacobThreeThree 4y ago
        Good point. The issue is not the policy per se, it's the fact that their name is not accurate.
        Aspie96 4y ago
        I mean, the policy is kind of shit too, given that they used to have the mission of being open. But yes, the name is not what it should be, given their current ideas.
- sereja 4y ago
  IMO the main reason these companies don't release their models is not ethical concerns but money: - NVIDIA sells GPUs and interconnect needed for training large models. Releasing a pretrained LM would hurt sales, while only publishing a teaser paper boosts them. - Google, Microsoft, and Amazon offer ML-as-a-service and TPU/GPU hardware as a part of their cloud computing platforms. Russian and Chinese companies also have their clouds, but they have low global market share and aren't cost-efficient, so nobody would use them to train large LMs anyway. - OpenAI are selling their models as an API with a huge markup over inference costs; they are also largely sponsored by the aforementioned companies, further aligning their interests with them. Companies that release large models are simply those who have nothing to lose by doing so. Unfortunately, you need a lot of idle hardware to train them, and companies that have it tend to also launch a public cloud with it, so there is a perpetual conflict of interests here.
- jowday 4y ago
  The “ethical concerns” thing is just a progressive-sounding excuse for why they’re not going to give their models away for free. I guarantee you those models are going to be integrated into various Google products in some form or another.
- gaudat 4y ago
  This reminded me of a shitpost comparing Google and Yandex. https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/78144754/#78145600 https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/78144754/#78145600
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> Google overlords neutered their own product out of fear over lawyers/regulation What kind of lawyers/regulation do you have in mind? If anything, I'd find the opposite: lawyers and copyright holders should be grateful for such a tool that - when it was still working - allowed you to trace websites using your images illegally. Now they all use Yandex for this purpose, with relatively good results.
- rascul 4y ago
  Maybe the view image link removal in 2018. https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/15/17017864/google-removes-view-image-button-from-search-results https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/15/17017864/google-removes-v...
- thereddaikon 4y ago
  IIRC it was mostly from groups like Getty images. They and other image licensing companies didn't want google showing their images in search results. They claimed it was copyright infringement and given the absolute state of IP law in the US they could have made Google's life very difficult.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    We're talking about reverse search, right? (Because "normal" image search still kind of works, it's reverse search that is completely broken.) In this case, you already have the copyrighted image, and if you find out that the same image is on Getty Images, then all the better as you can check it license. Also, it's better for GI as it gives them more exposure, and the kind of companies who use GI are very unlikely to pirate images.
  - omniglottal 4y ago
    Couldn't compliance with a robots.txt file have prevented all of this?
- 323 4y ago
  You misunderstood parent post. It's about Google not being sued for discrimination. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/08/10/study-image-results-for-the-google-search-ugly-woman-are-disproportionately-black/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/08... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/08/does-google-unprofessional-hair-results-prove-algorithms-racist- https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/08/does-goog... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-19/google-quietly-tweaks-image-search-for-racially-diverse-results https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-19/google-qu... https://theconversation.com/googles-algorithms-discriminate-against-women-and-people-of-colour-112516 https://theconversation.com/googles-algorithms-discriminate-...
memorable 4y ago
I agree with this. When I am still addicted to porn, Yandex Image is the only one that seems to find relevant and useful links.
whoami_nr 4y ago
FWIW, https://same.energy/ https://same.energy/ seems to work fine for me
- jeanlucas 4y ago
  A 500 days old product in beta? I hope they do well.
  - Kye 4y ago
    Extended betas used to be Google's thing.
psyc 4y ago
I regularly use it for a sample of what Google and Bing are intentionally omitting.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

Yandex Image Search is today is what Google Image Search should have been. End of the day I’ll use what actually gets the job done. Same goes for OpenAI and Google AI. If you don’t actually ever release and let others use your stuff and end paralyzed in fear at what your models may do then someone else is gonna release the same tech, and at this rate it seems like that’ll be Chinese or Russian companies who don’t share your sensibilities at all, and their models will be the ones that end up productized.

SXX 4y ago
OpenAI should just rebrand since nothing they do is actually open.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  You know 100 years ago you could just buy uranium openly? Leo Szílard hustled up 200 kilograms, pleted, in the 30's.
  - SXX 4y ago
    What does it have to do with OpenAI branding? Their "moral" reasoning behind not publishing models is simply laughtable because they do sell API access to them to anyone who can pay. And "bad guys" generally have money.
    - sanxiyn 4y ago
      They can (and do) revoke API access from bad guys. They can't do that to downloaded models. Look, I don't like what OpenAI does, but "API access, but no model download" makes sense if you are worried about misuses.
      - ggktk 4y ago
        Bad actors still can get access to such models. It even makes them more dangerous than it would if everyone had access to them. Here's an alternative: progressively release better and better models (like 3B params, 10B, 50B, 100B) and let people figure out the best way to fight against bad actors using them.
        sanxiyn 4y ago
        > It even makes them more dangerous than it would if everyone had access to them. This is the sort of argument that proves guns would be less dangerous if everyone had access to them.
        prometheus76 4y ago
        "An armed society is a polite society" - Robert Heinlein
        CRConrad 4y ago
        He was an author of fiction. They usually write a lot of stuff that is on some deeper level "true", even though it is on the surface fictional... And a lot of stuff that isn't. Or sometimes both, because it's only part of the truth. Maybe the complete version should be: "An armed society is a 'polite' society, but with very frequent killings and not-infrequent massacres." I think I prefer living in a less "polite" society.
        adamc 4y ago
        "It even makes them more dangerous..." needs to be demonstrated, not asserted.
  - remram 4y ago
    Maybe they should rename to SafeAI, if their concern is controlling access.
    - JacobThreeThree 4y ago
      Good point. The issue is not the policy per se, it's the fact that their name is not accurate.
      - Aspie96 4y ago
        I mean, the policy is kind of shit too, given that they used to have the mission of being open. But yes, the name is not what it should be, given their current ideas.
sereja 4y ago
IMO the main reason these companies don't release their models is not ethical concerns but money: - NVIDIA sells GPUs and interconnect needed for training large models. Releasing a pretrained LM would hurt sales, while only publishing a teaser paper boosts them. - Google, Microsoft, and Amazon offer ML-as-a-service and TPU/GPU hardware as a part of their cloud computing platforms. Russian and Chinese companies also have their clouds, but they have low global market share and aren't cost-efficient, so nobody would use them to train large LMs anyway. - OpenAI are selling their models as an API with a huge markup over inference costs; they are also largely sponsored by the aforementioned companies, further aligning their interests with them. Companies that release large models are simply those who have nothing to lose by doing so. Unfortunately, you need a lot of idle hardware to train them, and companies that have it tend to also launch a public cloud with it, so there is a perpetual conflict of interests here.
jowday 4y ago
The “ethical concerns” thing is just a progressive-sounding excuse for why they’re not going to give their models away for free. I guarantee you those models are going to be integrated into various Google products in some form or another.
gaudat 4y ago
This reminded me of a shitpost comparing Google and Yandex. https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/78144754/#78145600 https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/78144754/#78145600

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago

> Google overlords neutered their own product out of fear over lawyers/regulation What kind of lawyers/regulation do you have in mind? If anything, I'd find the opposite: lawyers and copyright holders should be grateful for such a tool that - when it was still working - allowed you to trace websites using your images illegally. Now they all use Yandex for this purpose, with relatively good results.

rascul 4y ago
Maybe the view image link removal in 2018. https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/15/17017864/google-removes-view-image-button-from-search-results https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/15/17017864/google-removes-v...
thereddaikon 4y ago
IIRC it was mostly from groups like Getty images. They and other image licensing companies didn't want google showing their images in search results. They claimed it was copyright infringement and given the absolute state of IP law in the US they could have made Google's life very difficult.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  We're talking about reverse search, right? (Because "normal" image search still kind of works, it's reverse search that is completely broken.) In this case, you already have the copyrighted image, and if you find out that the same image is on Getty Images, then all the better as you can check it license. Also, it's better for GI as it gives them more exposure, and the kind of companies who use GI are very unlikely to pirate images.
- omniglottal 4y ago
  Couldn't compliance with a robots.txt file have prevented all of this?
323 4y ago
You misunderstood parent post. It's about Google not being sued for discrimination. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/08/10/study-image-results-for-the-google-search-ugly-woman-are-disproportionately-black/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/08... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/08/does-google-unprofessional-hair-results-prove-algorithms-racist- https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/08/does-goog... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-19/google-quietly-tweaks-image-search-for-racially-diverse-results https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-19/google-qu... https://theconversation.com/googles-algorithms-discriminate-against-women-and-people-of-colour-112516 https://theconversation.com/googles-algorithms-discriminate-...

memorable 4y ago

I agree with this. When I am still addicted to porn, Yandex Image is the only one that seems to find relevant and useful links.

whoami_nr 4y ago

FWIW, https://same.energy/ https://same.energy/ seems to work fine for me

jeanlucas 4y ago
A 500 days old product in beta? I hope they do well.
- Kye 4y ago
  Extended betas used to be Google's thing.

psyc 4y ago

I regularly use it for a sample of what Google and Bing are intentionally omitting.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]