6 ms·

With the "walled garden" comment, I'm wondering - nowadays, all sorts of discourse seems to depend on these types of proprietary services/platforms, that employ

by caycep 4y ago

With the "walled garden" comment, I'm wondering - nowadays, all sorts of discourse seems to depend on these types of proprietary services/platforms, that employ armies of engineers to keep them running, develop new features, etc. Attempts to make things decentralized all seem to be aggregating into central controls, i.e. "Web3/crypto" -> coinbase, kraken, etc Why aren't older decentralized "services" protocols being looked at, or developed further - i.e. UUnet/newsgroups, torrent, etc?

dend 4y ago
You don't need to look far for this. To be fair, my comment was much less about decentralization and more about the existence of tools for content portability and control. For example, you can have Markdown + Ghost + custom domain. Worst case scenario, you move to another hosting platform, but you're not locked to one particular service and its own goals of growth.
- caycep 4y ago
  distribution/eyeballs is the issue with having your own site/self hosting though. Albeit I feel like if there were momentum in that direction, someone should do the RSS reader killer app for that. I.e. something like Reeder w/ Overcast/Apple's podcast directory...
  - dend 4y ago
    You could also still post links to your content wherever your audience is - it's just a matter of being able to maintain control over the content itself.
vorpalhex 4y ago
You don't need a new protocol. HTTP(S) is great for blogs and writing.
rchaud 4y ago
> Why aren't older decentralized "services" protocols being looked at, or developed further - i.e. UUnet/newsgroups, torrent, etc? Where will the money come from? The only reason there's any investment in software at all is so that a monetizable product can be built on top of it. And nothing monetizes better than vendor lock-in.
- lupire 4y ago
  Government, universities, hobbyists. That's how we did it the first time.
  - fullshark 4y ago
    The tools are available to them right now, nothing's stopping them except the fact that people want to spend their time in walled gardens.
    - fercircularbuf 4y ago
      I can't help but think that walled gardens are attractive places to spend time, not that people want to spend their time in them.
saurik 4y ago
> Attempts to make things decentralized all seem to be aggregating into central controls, i.e. "Web3/crypto" -> coinbase, kraken, etc Coinbase and Kraken are not "central controls" as you not only can use either and they are exactly fully interchangeable, but you can use any number of other similar services--or even deal directly with another user and keep your credentials locally--all of which are exactly fully interchangeable.
- aardvarkr 4y ago
  Off topic but I wanted to say thanks for all of your contributions to the iOS jailbreak scene :)
darth_avocado 4y ago
Walled gardens exist because it costs money to keep the garden flourishing. Keep in mind, in this walled garden, all the walls do is make you log in, everything else is still free. Decentralization still requires someone to pay for keeping these services alive. You could argue every user somehow be able to own and run their own platform, but in reality most of the users will not opt for the overhead when you can get it for "free" from a provider. And in a semi decentralized world where a few separate providers keep the lights on, the providers would still need to be compensated for the time and resources they invest, which again brings you back to a different kind of a walled garden.
- dend 4y ago
  The thing is - other providers exists, it's just they are not as convenient as the walled gardens. That's a big part of the challenge. You can own your blog on your own domain and site, but you need to be able to set that up, not forget to renew your domain, potentially deal with availability issues if the site goes down, etc. Compare that to basically just putting your content somewhere where someone else worries about all those things. It's a trade-off that folks are willing to make, and for the "average user" (definition can vary depending on service/area) that is a very straightforward choice. I just hope that more folks understand what rights they give up by becoming attached to one platform as their publishing medium.
lobocinza 4y ago
More like "walled garbage"
bombcar 4y ago
Because for the vast majority of users, they just need something they can post once in a while (if at all) and maybe the ability to form little groups. They care nothing more and need nothing more. But some of those become popular and famous, and then there's little incentive to move elsewhere, as their "fans" are on the platform and so it continues to grow.

by caycep 4y ago

dend 4y ago

You don't need to look far for this. To be fair, my comment was much less about decentralization and more about the existence of tools for content portability and control. For example, you can have Markdown + Ghost + custom domain. Worst case scenario, you move to another hosting platform, but you're not locked to one particular service and its own goals of growth.

caycep 4y ago
distribution/eyeballs is the issue with having your own site/self hosting though. Albeit I feel like if there were momentum in that direction, someone should do the RSS reader killer app for that. I.e. something like Reeder w/ Overcast/Apple's podcast directory...
- dend 4y ago
  You could also still post links to your content wherever your audience is - it's just a matter of being able to maintain control over the content itself.

vorpalhex 4y ago

You don't need a new protocol. HTTP(S) is great for blogs and writing.

rchaud 4y ago

> Why aren't older decentralized "services" protocols being looked at, or developed further - i.e. UUnet/newsgroups, torrent, etc? Where will the money come from? The only reason there's any investment in software at all is so that a monetizable product can be built on top of it. And nothing monetizes better than vendor lock-in.

lupire 4y ago
Government, universities, hobbyists. That's how we did it the first time.
- fullshark 4y ago
  The tools are available to them right now, nothing's stopping them except the fact that people want to spend their time in walled gardens.
  - fercircularbuf 4y ago
    I can't help but think that walled gardens are attractive places to spend time, not that people want to spend their time in them.

saurik 4y ago

> Attempts to make things decentralized all seem to be aggregating into central controls, i.e. "Web3/crypto" -> coinbase, kraken, etc Coinbase and Kraken are not "central controls" as you not only can use either and they are exactly fully interchangeable, but you can use any number of other similar services--or even deal directly with another user and keep your credentials locally--all of which are exactly fully interchangeable.

aardvarkr 4y ago
Off topic but I wanted to say thanks for all of your contributions to the iOS jailbreak scene :)

darth_avocado 4y ago

Walled gardens exist because it costs money to keep the garden flourishing. Keep in mind, in this walled garden, all the walls do is make you log in, everything else is still free. Decentralization still requires someone to pay for keeping these services alive. You could argue every user somehow be able to own and run their own platform, but in reality most of the users will not opt for the overhead when you can get it for "free" from a provider. And in a semi decentralized world where a few separate providers keep the lights on, the providers would still need to be compensated for the time and resources they invest, which again brings you back to a different kind of a walled garden.

dend 4y ago
The thing is - other providers exists, it's just they are not as convenient as the walled gardens. That's a big part of the challenge. You can own your blog on your own domain and site, but you need to be able to set that up, not forget to renew your domain, potentially deal with availability issues if the site goes down, etc. Compare that to basically just putting your content somewhere where someone else worries about all those things. It's a trade-off that folks are willing to make, and for the "average user" (definition can vary depending on service/area) that is a very straightforward choice. I just hope that more folks understand what rights they give up by becoming attached to one platform as their publishing medium.

lobocinza 4y ago

More like "walled garbage"

bombcar 4y ago

Because for the vast majority of users, they just need something they can post once in a while (if at all) and maybe the ability to form little groups. They care nothing more and need nothing more. But some of those become popular and famous, and then there's little incentive to move elsewhere, as their "fans" are on the platform and so it continues to grow.