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Brave Search passes 2.5B queries, allows users to choose search rankings

arberx 4y ago
I've used Brave search exclusively for the last couple of months, and I have to say it's been the best replacement for Google I've ever tried. Excited to see it grow and improve!
- SllX 4y ago
  > it's been the best replacement for Google I've ever tried That’s quite an endorsement. I went ahead and added Brave Search to xSearch (an iPhone/iPad Safari extension that gives you keyword SE selection) to give it the college try.
  - heresaPizza 4y ago
    I did the same and i’ve had the override search engine option on for two months now to use it. Using Google is a no for me (except really borderline situations), startpage is good but still based on google, ddg sucks and is totally unable to provide good results for my area. I can say Brave is already better than everything else except google and the search engines that use it. The “discussions” widget that shows reddit previews makes it sometimes better than everything else and this google feature will hopefully make it the best. I don’t really like the crypto stuff and many of the ideas that guide the making of the brave browser (so i don’t use it), however they have been shipping products that are simply very good lately.
zionic 4y ago
I’ve been really happy with Brave search for the ~2 months I’ve been using it
stuckinhell 4y ago
I've been trying it. It's better than most search engines, I only shift to google for tech related things these days. This feature seems pretty incredible for searching specific domains. I'm excited for it.
- TylerE 4y ago
  How is it different for single domain search than just doing site:foo.com bar?
  - stuckinhell 4y ago
    Sorry I wasn't clear before, I meant knowledge domains not internet domains.
mrpf1ster 4y ago
I have tried using Brave Search (as well as DuckDuckGo) as alternatives to Google but I always had to keep switching back to using Google with the !g bang. Recently however I have been using Kagi and I think I have found the one search engine that is better than google. It has been great in every query, allows a ton of customization of ranking, and the people behind it make the Orion browser as well which has been my main driver. https://kagi.com https://kagi.com
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Interesting so many separate search engines recently. Are they all primarily using Bing’s index? Otherwise it would have to be too hard to build up enough of an index and ranking system with how big the web is. Bing itself can’t keep up with the web like Google can.
  - soundnote 4y ago
    Most small engines are Bing frontends, yes.
    - freediver 4y ago
      Kagi isn't - which is how we achieve results that people often describe as 'better than Google' ;)
      - soundnote 4y ago
        I'm a simple man and upvote independent services.
  - DivineBicycle 4y ago
    Brave isn't.
juddlyon 4y ago
I’ve been using Brave + Startpage for a few years on mobile. I couldn’t get used to DDG or other search engines. Adblocking is quite good but also catches legit some tooltips and modals.
ta8645 4y ago
Switched to Brave when DDG revealed its focus on politics. It has been a very pleasant transition, and I haven't missed the !g bang as much as anticipated. Turns out falling back to Google isn't needed nearly as often with Brave as it was with DDG.
- vmullin 4y ago
  FYI !bangs work in Brave Search: https://search.brave.com/bangs https://search.brave.com/bangs
  - theandrewbailey 4y ago
    That was my number 1 concern about switching away from DDG. I put one into Brave for the hell of it, and was surprised that it worked. (!mdn, probably) That sold me on Brave.
- zarzavat 4y ago
  How did DDG reveal its focus on politics? Are you referring to them dropping Yandex? Unfortunately there’s no good options in that situation because however good Yandex is, it basically gives the Russian government free reign to inject propaganda into search results, which is basically the opposite of being apolitical.
  - theandrewbailey 4y ago
    For me, it was the founder announcing that they were going to de-rank "sites associated with russian disinformation". https://twitter.com/yegg/status/1501716484761997318 https://twitter.com/yegg/status/1501716484761997318 https://www.pcmag.com/news/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation https://www.pcmag.com/news/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-ass...
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    The weird situation they got themselves into with Tank Man was revealing. https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/04/microsoft-bing-tiananmen-tank-man-results https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/04/microsoft...
mbesto 4y ago
I recently switched to Neeva from DDG. DDG's results were, ummm, not great. Has anyone compared Neeva to Brave? Better/worse?
- stereoradonc 4y ago
  I have been using Neeva for sometime, and I hardly miss Google. It allows me to add some specific webpages for my specific needs, so that I can see search results from general+specific websites. Reddit, I believe, is now indexed, and they should extend it to forums.
ahmadmijot 4y ago
I recently install Brave and when I used it for a few hours I didn't realise the default search engine is not Google! Only after a few 'quirkiness' results that I realised I used Brave Search. Now I only switch to Google Search once in a while.
- jppope 4y ago
  I'm the same way... they still have some work to do, but there are plenty of spots that are better than google such as code snippets. Its my default search now
- guessbest 4y ago
  Brave has a long way to go, but they results are sometimes better than Google on technical searches, which was the only reason I started using Google Search back in 2000.
- heresaPizza 4y ago
  Google collects so many data it is difficult to beat, but i was impressed seeing that Brave Search is just miles better than ddg and has way less problems understanding which language i’m using and providing localised results (i’m not from the us)
user3939382 4y ago
It’s funny how brand reputation and impression works. I do not remember every story that has been posted about Brave since its inception. I always remember my emotional takeaway, which is that I don’t trust it. My fuzzy memory on it is: something about brokering my private data, which I never want shared period, something about optimizing my relationship with ads which I want nothing to do with, something about a crypto scam.
- natly 4y ago
  It's funny how powerful genuinely acting honorable and having a good reputation can be in a world where everyone seems to think you can get away with sociopathic behavior.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  Fuzzy memory, huh? Machine learning is local. The data is never shared with Brave or advertisers.
- stepupmakeup 4y ago
  Another recent incident was with them appending affiliate codes to specific crypto-related URLs by default. It was fixed after public outcry (the option still remains) at least, but I personally believe something like that shouldn't be in software at all, full stop.
  - coffeeling 4y ago
    The feature is basically meant to be like Firefox Suggest and give you a sponsored link in the dropdown, if you don't type in a proper URL. The bug that caused the outcry was typing in a proper URL resulting in the sponsored link being the first suggestion. Was fixed and the feature disabled by default.
- rglullis 4y ago
  The "brokering of data" is in-device. They don't get to access any of it. You don't anything to do with ads? Just don't sign up to the rewards system. It's opt-in. The "crypto scam"? What part of it is a scam, if at no point users are required to put any money or buy anything to participate? It is also opt-in, and the token exists mostly because it is the only way possible for them to pay users their share of revenues anywhere in the world without having to become a money transmitter themselves.
nicodjimenez 4y ago
Congrats to the Brave team on building a great product I hope there is a sustainable business model behind it.
- jacooper 4y ago
  It should have one, brave ads.
robonerd 4y ago
Nice for them. But I find general-purpose search engines are becoming worse across the board. They're all so bad now that I find them to be a waste of the time more often than not. I've found myself relying more on the search functionality built into websites. Instead of going to google/ddg/brave with the intent of landing on a wikipedia page, I go to wikipedia directly and search there. Wikipedia's search is much better than I remember it being, and I don't have to scroll through half a page of commercial results before finding the page I'm looking for (if what you're searching for is something that could be sold to you, that's what these general purpose search engines will prioritize. They all have a very strong commercial bias.)
fritigern 4y ago
I don't know why, but I had a very negative impression of Brave for a long time. I still haven't tried their browser, but the search is suprisingly good! It also uses their own web index, which I find to be very impressive.
- soundnote 4y ago
  Brave threads on HN have a lot of very hostile posters, so it's not surprising.
  - fritigern 4y ago
    Can you ELI5 why that is so? A quick search showed that it's mostly ex-Mozilla folks at Brave.
sydthrowaway 4y ago
I want to use Brave Search but struggling to figure out what to search for.
tiffanyh 4y ago
> Brave Search Passess 2.5B queries in its first year As a comparison, DDG did 35B queries last year. https://duckduckgo.com/traffic https://duckduckgo.com/traffic
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  As a comparison, Google was doing ~6B searches per day, back in 2019. [0] [0]: https://skai.io/monday-morning-metrics-daily-searches-on-google-and-other-google-facts/#:~:text=Although%20Google%20does%20not%20share,2%20trillion%20searches%20per%20year https://skai.io/monday-morning-metrics-daily-searches-on-goo...!
brightball 4y ago
I’ve been using Brave Search for the last couple of weeks after stints with DDG and Kagi. Brave has been the best experience by far.
engineertorque 4y ago
emaro 4y ago
Nice. However note that awful misleading trendline they added to their chart.
OJFord 4y ago
> Transparency: We don’t censor, bias, filter, or downrank results (unless legally required to) Is it me or does the description not match the bullet? To me 'transparency' would be 'we detail on this page exactly how we bias/filter/downrank results (except where legally required not to)'. Second point somewhat implicit in the first: how can a search engine be said not to bias/filter/downrank results? That's the whole job? I think what they mean is they have some generic algorithm, and there's no special casing going on to further political or social ideals etc.? Circling back to the first - I think you can even do that (if you want) and claim transparency, you just have to say 'we aggressively downrank anything to do with XY rights' or whatever, and it might not be what everyone wants but it will be transparent?
- soundnote 4y ago
  Explicit editorial bias is a thing. They are saying they don't explicitly editorialize their results.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    I understand that, I just wouldn't label it 'transparency' - it is transparent of them to say that, but so would be 'we explicitly editorialise our results to [...]'. I'd just call it 'bias-free' or something (though q.v. point two..).
lmg643 4y ago
i love brave, it has transformed search for me, and the results remind me of what Google felt like decades ago. I find stuff on brave that i never would find on google or duck duck go. For example, trying to buy some thuja "green giants" (a kind of tree for landscaping) uncovered dozens of mom and pop operations nationwide, plus the insights from their local websites, that are typically buried under 5 layers of SEO garbage on google.
princevegeta89 4y ago
Is there any chance that people not using Brave Browser would use Brave Search at all?
- DaSHacka 4y ago
  I use it with Ungoogled Chromium, although I have used Brave Browser in the past. I didn't switch off the Brave Browser for ideological reasons or anything, so I have no qualms about using their services. I do try to stay updated on news surrounding Brave though, as they have had quite the large amount of controversies in the past.
dang 4y ago
Ongoing related thread: Brave Search Goggles: Alter search rankings with rules and filters - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986 - June 2022 (45 comments)
deleted 4y ago
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Sherriecoleman 4y ago
elektor 4y ago
Not a big fan of Brave the browser but am excited to see Brave Search flourish!
- heresaPizza 4y ago
  Exactly. I’ve used ddg for more than a year and startpage for some months and it’s great to see a search engine that doesn’t suck, tries to be independent and has no problems understanding that i’m not from the us
boulos 4y ago
So... about 160 qps? (Using the 5B queries annualized). Even if you multiply by 10 to account for a very high peak to average, that's sub-2000. I wish companies wouldn't try to make something seem big by using "billions". It took me billions of nanoseconds to write this comment...
- dna_polymerase 4y ago
  So what‘s your argument here? 160 search queries per second is very impressive. These aren‘t request to a stupid api, but users actually using a tool.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    I’m not sure why you think they’re making an argument - they aren’t claiming anything as far as I can tell
    - spiderice 4y ago
      How do you figure? They are making an argument that 2.5 billion searches isn't impressive, and Brave is framing it in "yearly searches" so they can use the word "billion" because it doesn't sound as impressive if you frame it in "searches per second".
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        Where did they say that 2.5 billion isn’t impressive?
  - boulos 4y ago
    Sorry, I should have been more clear: I just dislike the use of "billions!!!" when what should be discussed is either qps (system load) or daily-active users (engagement). You could guesstimate DAU from qps by choosing a "queries per day" number (e.g., 10?) and assume the queries are done over just 8 hours. That's 1.25 queries per hour per user. Multiplying these terms out, you get ~500k DAU.
Daunk 4y ago
I think Brave Search is better than DuckDuckGo, especially when searching for "local" places. The only problem I have is that it's about twice as slow as DuckDuckGo at best, and about 5 times as slow at worst.
endisneigh 4y ago
Good stuff, however comparisons to duck and Google for first billion users is misleading since internet use has exploded exponentially since last decade. You’d expect it to be easier to get more nominal use. Also, as much as I dislike ads I think web3/crypto grifting is worse. I feel ambivalent =\. I’m curious to read how Goggles is architected technically. Allowing anyone to create their own defacto index seems intractable with Google level performance.
- vlunkr 4y ago
  > internet use has exploded exponentially since last decade Also the number of bots has exploded, that must account for some of the searches.
- ryan29 4y ago
  > Also, as much as I dislike ads I think web3/crypto grifting is worse. I feel ambivalent =\. I super briefly skimmed the crypto (BAT) token stuff. I think the general idea of earning tokens for searching and browsing is neat, but the way they're trying to use it directly as a microtransaction currency isn't super innovative. I don't like crypto in general, but I think the "proof of idle capacity" tokens have stumbled onto something that could be valuable for online reputation because they invert economies of scale in a way. Take something like Chia (XCH) as an example. As a typical user I can allocate some idle storage space to mining and, as long as I only mine while I'm browsing the internet, the incremental cost to me is basically $0. Compare that to someone building a rig specifically for mining. They have costs, I don't. Assume I can opt in by plotting some proofs on idle storage and mining into a pool where rewards are split up and some of the rewards (aka tokens) can only be used for liking (ranking up) or disliking (ranking down) websites. Ex: 20% of your rewards go to the pool operator (search index), 5% can be donated directly to sites or creators you like, and 75% go to ranking (search reputation) which "burns" them. Adjust the ratios as needed. A million normal users with 10GB of spare storage cancels out 10PB of storage from bad actors trying to game the system. IE: What's free for the masses is expensive to game and the more users hate your site, the more expensive it is for you to game the results. If you never give users "real" money (aka redeemable tokens) as rewards there's not much incentive to buy storage just to "earn" crypto currency, so hopefully you'd keep it limited to using truly idle resources only. The search index (ex: Brave) could use the tokens as a currency for selling ads (ie: keywords) and that could be weighted by the reputation score of the site you're driving traffic to. In other words, the effectiveness of your ad buys is impacted by your existing reputation and if you have a site that everyone hates you'll eventually get to the point where ads for your keywords cost significantly more than competitors that are well liked. Now everyone on Hacker News can tell me why that's a dumb idea :-) Lol.
dubswithus 4y ago
I think many are going to love this: > We’re excited to announce the long-awaited beta release of an innovative new Brave Search feature: Goggles. Goggles will enable anyone, or any community of people, to create sets of rules and filters to constrain the searchable space and / or alter the ordering of search results. Anyone could then choose to apply a Goggle—or extend it—to their view of Brave Search results. Essentially, Goggles will act as a re-ranking option on top of the Brave Search index.
- dang 4y ago
  We moved the replies to this comment to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986, which is about that feature.
mrkramer 4y ago
Brave's index is too similar to Google's nothing better or worse just roughly the same. I might start using Bing because it seems like the lesser evil of all. At this point Google is too much of a mess.
- zionic 4y ago
  The same results but private is a superior outcome. Heck, just being not-Google is a bonus for many people.
- soundnote 4y ago
  How is Bing a lesser evil than an independent index? You're right though that Tailcat's index was built to give results similar to Google's.
  - mrkramer 4y ago
    The whole time I meant quality of the search not privacy. Bing's index and search results seem like the most relevant one.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Agreed. Not really impressed by the results so far, maybe Goggles would change that but I'm frankly too lazy to check.
  - dubswithus 4y ago
    https://search.brave.com/goggles?q=elon+musk&goggles_id=https%253A%252F%252Fraw.githubusercontent.com%252Fbrave%252Fgoggles-quickstart%252Fmain%252Fgoggles%252Fhacker_news.goggle&nav=site https://search.brave.com/goggles?q=elon+musk&goggles_id=http...
    - mNovak 4y ago
      Buzzfeed is still the #2 result, but at least there's no tabloids
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
silverPoodle 4y ago
I love the search engine of Brave, because it's the first privacy-friendly alternative to Google, which competes with the quality of search results. DuckDuckGo, Qwant and similar search engines never give me so good results.
- onelovetwo 4y ago
  Its not the results I'm worried about with DDG, After all they just use bing behind the scenes anyways. It's their deep financial ties to Microsoft thats worrying. And it seems they're willing to turn their back on privacy when Microsoft asks.
  - pottertheotter 4y ago
    Can you elaborate? Are there specific things they have done to “turn their back on privacy when Microsoft asks”?
    - DavideNL 4y ago
      I suspect he is confusing DuckDuckGo with Brave...: https://www.techradar.com/news/duckduckgo-in-hot-water-over-hidden-tracking-agreement-with-microsoft https://www.techradar.com/news/duckduckgo-in-hot-water-over-...
      - onelovetwo 4y ago
        I literally say DDG in my comment...
        DavideNL 4y ago
        Sorry, misread... :-)
    - onelovetwo 4y ago
      Here. https://twitter.com/shivan_kaul/status/1528879590772338689 https://twitter.com/shivan_kaul/status/1528879590772338689
mhh__ 4y ago
I have I'd estimate one issue (e.g. requiring quotes or site search) using Google a week. When I try brave I estimate it's one impedence-mismatch a day. Not a bad product but reports of googles demise are overstated.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  It’s funny to compare results. I’ve acclimatised to scrolling down half the Google results page to bypass all that crap I’m served.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  Which has to terrify Google: You don't need to have the best product to grow, get users, and improve.
- bastardoperator 4y ago
  Demise? Maybe not in the short term but I would argue Google is losing trust and that's a problem for any business small or large. When given the opportunity, I try to spend my time and money elsewhere.
upupandup 4y ago
Does anybody find the constant promotion of Brave on HN annoying? Everytime I look at comments its the same handles who are also pro-crypto I can't take a browser serious when there are conflict of interset especially monetary ones in promoting it in public.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  I love Brave and have commented positively about my experience with it in the past. But I’ve never owned crypto, and I don’t comment on it much (or positively) on HN or elsewhere. Just an N = 1, but I imagine I’m not alone.
  - kbelder 4y ago
    No, I'm in that boat with you. Crypto is pretty much a minor leftover relic of Brave's startup strategy, you don't need to touch it or deal with it. If I had to fuss with it, that would be a negative for Brave; but it's basically irrelevant.
    - dubswithus 4y ago
      > Crypto is pretty much a minor leftover relic of Brave's startup strategy How do you think Brave makes money?
      - dahfizz 4y ago
        Ads, same as every other internet company.
      - soundnote 4y ago
        By selling ads and services for normal money. The crypto is for the users to tip content creators with. Brave buys the crypto used to tip users with normal money ad revenue from the open market, as far as I know. That means the creators users gave tips inevitably have someone to sell their BAT to.
  - wickedsickeune 4y ago

I've used Brave search exclusively for the last couple of months, and I have to say it's been the best replacement for Google I've ever tried. Excited to see it grow and improve!

SllX 4y ago
> it's been the best replacement for Google I've ever tried That’s quite an endorsement. I went ahead and added Brave Search to xSearch (an iPhone/iPad Safari extension that gives you keyword SE selection) to give it the college try.
- heresaPizza 4y ago
  I did the same and i’ve had the override search engine option on for two months now to use it. Using Google is a no for me (except really borderline situations), startpage is good but still based on google, ddg sucks and is totally unable to provide good results for my area. I can say Brave is already better than everything else except google and the search engines that use it. The “discussions” widget that shows reddit previews makes it sometimes better than everything else and this google feature will hopefully make it the best. I don’t really like the crypto stuff and many of the ideas that guide the making of the brave browser (so i don’t use it), however they have been shipping products that are simply very good lately.

zionic 4y ago

I’ve been really happy with Brave search for the ~2 months I’ve been using it

stuckinhell 4y ago

I've been trying it. It's better than most search engines, I only shift to google for tech related things these days. This feature seems pretty incredible for searching specific domains. I'm excited for it.

TylerE 4y ago
How is it different for single domain search than just doing site:foo.com bar?
- stuckinhell 4y ago
  Sorry I wasn't clear before, I meant knowledge domains not internet domains.

mrpf1ster 4y ago

I have tried using Brave Search (as well as DuckDuckGo) as alternatives to Google but I always had to keep switching back to using Google with the !g bang. Recently however I have been using Kagi and I think I have found the one search engine that is better than google. It has been great in every query, allows a ton of customization of ranking, and the people behind it make the Orion browser as well which has been my main driver. https://kagi.com https://kagi.com

skinnymuch 4y ago
Interesting so many separate search engines recently. Are they all primarily using Bing’s index? Otherwise it would have to be too hard to build up enough of an index and ranking system with how big the web is. Bing itself can’t keep up with the web like Google can.
- soundnote 4y ago
  Most small engines are Bing frontends, yes.
  - freediver 4y ago
    Kagi isn't - which is how we achieve results that people often describe as 'better than Google' ;)
    - soundnote 4y ago
      I'm a simple man and upvote independent services.
- DivineBicycle 4y ago
  Brave isn't.

juddlyon 4y ago

I’ve been using Brave + Startpage for a few years on mobile. I couldn’t get used to DDG or other search engines. Adblocking is quite good but also catches legit some tooltips and modals.

ta8645 4y ago

Switched to Brave when DDG revealed its focus on politics. It has been a very pleasant transition, and I haven't missed the !g bang as much as anticipated. Turns out falling back to Google isn't needed nearly as often with Brave as it was with DDG.

vmullin 4y ago
FYI !bangs work in Brave Search: https://search.brave.com/bangs https://search.brave.com/bangs
- theandrewbailey 4y ago
  That was my number 1 concern about switching away from DDG. I put one into Brave for the hell of it, and was surprised that it worked. (!mdn, probably) That sold me on Brave.
zarzavat 4y ago
How did DDG reveal its focus on politics? Are you referring to them dropping Yandex? Unfortunately there’s no good options in that situation because however good Yandex is, it basically gives the Russian government free reign to inject propaganda into search results, which is basically the opposite of being apolitical.
- theandrewbailey 4y ago
  For me, it was the founder announcing that they were going to de-rank "sites associated with russian disinformation". https://twitter.com/yegg/status/1501716484761997318 https://twitter.com/yegg/status/1501716484761997318 https://www.pcmag.com/news/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation https://www.pcmag.com/news/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-ass...
- lostlogin 4y ago
  The weird situation they got themselves into with Tank Man was revealing. https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/04/microsoft-bing-tiananmen-tank-man-results https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/04/microsoft...

mbesto 4y ago

I recently switched to Neeva from DDG. DDG's results were, ummm, not great. Has anyone compared Neeva to Brave? Better/worse?

stereoradonc 4y ago
I have been using Neeva for sometime, and I hardly miss Google. It allows me to add some specific webpages for my specific needs, so that I can see search results from general+specific websites. Reddit, I believe, is now indexed, and they should extend it to forums.

ahmadmijot 4y ago

I recently install Brave and when I used it for a few hours I didn't realise the default search engine is not Google! Only after a few 'quirkiness' results that I realised I used Brave Search. Now I only switch to Google Search once in a while.

jppope 4y ago
I'm the same way... they still have some work to do, but there are plenty of spots that are better than google such as code snippets. Its my default search now
guessbest 4y ago
Brave has a long way to go, but they results are sometimes better than Google on technical searches, which was the only reason I started using Google Search back in 2000.
heresaPizza 4y ago
Google collects so many data it is difficult to beat, but i was impressed seeing that Brave Search is just miles better than ddg and has way less problems understanding which language i’m using and providing localised results (i’m not from the us)

user3939382 4y ago

It’s funny how brand reputation and impression works. I do not remember every story that has been posted about Brave since its inception. I always remember my emotional takeaway, which is that I don’t trust it. My fuzzy memory on it is: something about brokering my private data, which I never want shared period, something about optimizing my relationship with ads which I want nothing to do with, something about a crypto scam.

natly 4y ago
It's funny how powerful genuinely acting honorable and having a good reputation can be in a world where everyone seems to think you can get away with sociopathic behavior.
dubswithus 4y ago
Fuzzy memory, huh? Machine learning is local. The data is never shared with Brave or advertisers.
stepupmakeup 4y ago
Another recent incident was with them appending affiliate codes to specific crypto-related URLs by default. It was fixed after public outcry (the option still remains) at least, but I personally believe something like that shouldn't be in software at all, full stop.
- coffeeling 4y ago
  The feature is basically meant to be like Firefox Suggest and give you a sponsored link in the dropdown, if you don't type in a proper URL. The bug that caused the outcry was typing in a proper URL resulting in the sponsored link being the first suggestion. Was fixed and the feature disabled by default.
rglullis 4y ago
The "brokering of data" is in-device. They don't get to access any of it. You don't anything to do with ads? Just don't sign up to the rewards system. It's opt-in. The "crypto scam"? What part of it is a scam, if at no point users are required to put any money or buy anything to participate? It is also opt-in, and the token exists mostly because it is the only way possible for them to pay users their share of revenues anywhere in the world without having to become a money transmitter themselves.

nicodjimenez 4y ago

Congrats to the Brave team on building a great product I hope there is a sustainable business model behind it.

jacooper 4y ago
It should have one, brave ads.

robonerd 4y ago

Nice for them. But I find general-purpose search engines are becoming worse across the board. They're all so bad now that I find them to be a waste of the time more often than not. I've found myself relying more on the search functionality built into websites. Instead of going to google/ddg/brave with the intent of landing on a wikipedia page, I go to wikipedia directly and search there. Wikipedia's search is much better than I remember it being, and I don't have to scroll through half a page of commercial results before finding the page I'm looking for (if what you're searching for is something that could be sold to you, that's what these general purpose search engines will prioritize. They all have a very strong commercial bias.)

fritigern 4y ago

I don't know why, but I had a very negative impression of Brave for a long time. I still haven't tried their browser, but the search is suprisingly good! It also uses their own web index, which I find to be very impressive.

soundnote 4y ago
Brave threads on HN have a lot of very hostile posters, so it's not surprising.
- fritigern 4y ago
  Can you ELI5 why that is so? A quick search showed that it's mostly ex-Mozilla folks at Brave.

sydthrowaway 4y ago

I want to use Brave Search but struggling to figure out what to search for.

tiffanyh 4y ago

> Brave Search Passess 2.5B queries in its first year As a comparison, DDG did 35B queries last year. https://duckduckgo.com/traffic https://duckduckgo.com/traffic

simonebrunozzi 4y ago
As a comparison, Google was doing ~6B searches per day, back in 2019. [0] [0]: https://skai.io/monday-morning-metrics-daily-searches-on-google-and-other-google-facts/#:~:text=Although%20Google%20does%20not%20share,2%20trillion%20searches%20per%20year https://skai.io/monday-morning-metrics-daily-searches-on-goo...!

brightball 4y ago

I’ve been using Brave Search for the last couple of weeks after stints with DDG and Kagi. Brave has been the best experience by far.

engineertorque 4y ago

emaro 4y ago

Nice. However note that awful misleading trendline they added to their chart.

OJFord 4y ago

> Transparency: We don’t censor, bias, filter, or downrank results (unless legally required to) Is it me or does the description not match the bullet? To me 'transparency' would be 'we detail on this page exactly how we bias/filter/downrank results (except where legally required not to)'. Second point somewhat implicit in the first: how can a search engine be said not to bias/filter/downrank results? That's the whole job? I think what they mean is they have some generic algorithm, and there's no special casing going on to further political or social ideals etc.? Circling back to the first - I think you can even do that (if you want) and claim transparency, you just have to say 'we aggressively downrank anything to do with XY rights' or whatever, and it might not be what everyone wants but it will be transparent?

soundnote 4y ago
Explicit editorial bias is a thing. They are saying they don't explicitly editorialize their results.
- OJFord 4y ago
  I understand that, I just wouldn't label it 'transparency' - it is transparent of them to say that, but so would be 'we explicitly editorialise our results to [...]'. I'd just call it 'bias-free' or something (though q.v. point two..).

lmg643 4y ago

i love brave, it has transformed search for me, and the results remind me of what Google felt like decades ago. I find stuff on brave that i never would find on google or duck duck go. For example, trying to buy some thuja "green giants" (a kind of tree for landscaping) uncovered dozens of mom and pop operations nationwide, plus the insights from their local websites, that are typically buried under 5 layers of SEO garbage on google.

princevegeta89 4y ago

Is there any chance that people not using Brave Browser would use Brave Search at all?

DaSHacka 4y ago
I use it with Ungoogled Chromium, although I have used Brave Browser in the past. I didn't switch off the Brave Browser for ideological reasons or anything, so I have no qualms about using their services. I do try to stay updated on news surrounding Brave though, as they have had quite the large amount of controversies in the past.

dang 4y ago

Ongoing related thread: Brave Search Goggles: Alter search rankings with rules and filters - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986 - June 2022 (45 comments)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Sherriecoleman 4y ago

elektor 4y ago

Not a big fan of Brave the browser but am excited to see Brave Search flourish!

heresaPizza 4y ago
Exactly. I’ve used ddg for more than a year and startpage for some months and it’s great to see a search engine that doesn’t suck, tries to be independent and has no problems understanding that i’m not from the us

boulos 4y ago

So... about 160 qps? (Using the 5B queries annualized). Even if you multiply by 10 to account for a very high peak to average, that's sub-2000. I wish companies wouldn't try to make something seem big by using "billions". It took me billions of nanoseconds to write this comment...

dna_polymerase 4y ago
So what‘s your argument here? 160 search queries per second is very impressive. These aren‘t request to a stupid api, but users actually using a tool.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  I’m not sure why you think they’re making an argument - they aren’t claiming anything as far as I can tell
  - spiderice 4y ago
    How do you figure? They are making an argument that 2.5 billion searches isn't impressive, and Brave is framing it in "yearly searches" so they can use the word "billion" because it doesn't sound as impressive if you frame it in "searches per second".
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Where did they say that 2.5 billion isn’t impressive?
- boulos 4y ago
  Sorry, I should have been more clear: I just dislike the use of "billions!!!" when what should be discussed is either qps (system load) or daily-active users (engagement). You could guesstimate DAU from qps by choosing a "queries per day" number (e.g., 10?) and assume the queries are done over just 8 hours. That's 1.25 queries per hour per user. Multiplying these terms out, you get ~500k DAU.

Daunk 4y ago

I think Brave Search is better than DuckDuckGo, especially when searching for "local" places. The only problem I have is that it's about twice as slow as DuckDuckGo at best, and about 5 times as slow at worst.

endisneigh 4y ago

Good stuff, however comparisons to duck and Google for first billion users is misleading since internet use has exploded exponentially since last decade. You’d expect it to be easier to get more nominal use. Also, as much as I dislike ads I think web3/crypto grifting is worse. I feel ambivalent =\. I’m curious to read how Goggles is architected technically. Allowing anyone to create their own defacto index seems intractable with Google level performance.

vlunkr 4y ago
> internet use has exploded exponentially since last decade Also the number of bots has exploded, that must account for some of the searches.
ryan29 4y ago
> Also, as much as I dislike ads I think web3/crypto grifting is worse. I feel ambivalent =\. I super briefly skimmed the crypto (BAT) token stuff. I think the general idea of earning tokens for searching and browsing is neat, but the way they're trying to use it directly as a microtransaction currency isn't super innovative. I don't like crypto in general, but I think the "proof of idle capacity" tokens have stumbled onto something that could be valuable for online reputation because they invert economies of scale in a way. Take something like Chia (XCH) as an example. As a typical user I can allocate some idle storage space to mining and, as long as I only mine while I'm browsing the internet, the incremental cost to me is basically $0. Compare that to someone building a rig specifically for mining. They have costs, I don't. Assume I can opt in by plotting some proofs on idle storage and mining into a pool where rewards are split up and some of the rewards (aka tokens) can only be used for liking (ranking up) or disliking (ranking down) websites. Ex: 20% of your rewards go to the pool operator (search index), 5% can be donated directly to sites or creators you like, and 75% go to ranking (search reputation) which "burns" them. Adjust the ratios as needed. A million normal users with 10GB of spare storage cancels out 10PB of storage from bad actors trying to game the system. IE: What's free for the masses is expensive to game and the more users hate your site, the more expensive it is for you to game the results. If you never give users "real" money (aka redeemable tokens) as rewards there's not much incentive to buy storage just to "earn" crypto currency, so hopefully you'd keep it limited to using truly idle resources only. The search index (ex: Brave) could use the tokens as a currency for selling ads (ie: keywords) and that could be weighted by the reputation score of the site you're driving traffic to. In other words, the effectiveness of your ad buys is impacted by your existing reputation and if you have a site that everyone hates you'll eventually get to the point where ads for your keywords cost significantly more than competitors that are well liked. Now everyone on Hacker News can tell me why that's a dumb idea :-) Lol.

dubswithus 4y ago

I think many are going to love this: > We’re excited to announce the long-awaited beta release of an innovative new Brave Search feature: Goggles. Goggles will enable anyone, or any community of people, to create sets of rules and filters to constrain the searchable space and / or alter the ordering of search results. Anyone could then choose to apply a Goggle—or extend it—to their view of Brave Search results. Essentially, Goggles will act as a re-ranking option on top of the Brave Search index.

dang 4y ago
We moved the replies to this comment to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837986, which is about that feature.

mrkramer 4y ago

Brave's index is too similar to Google's nothing better or worse just roughly the same. I might start using Bing because it seems like the lesser evil of all. At this point Google is too much of a mess.

zionic 4y ago
The same results but private is a superior outcome. Heck, just being not-Google is a bonus for many people.
soundnote 4y ago
How is Bing a lesser evil than an independent index? You're right though that Tailcat's index was built to give results similar to Google's.
- mrkramer 4y ago
  The whole time I meant quality of the search not privacy. Bing's index and search results seem like the most relevant one.
smoldesu 4y ago
Agreed. Not really impressed by the results so far, maybe Goggles would change that but I'm frankly too lazy to check.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  https://search.brave.com/goggles?q=elon+musk&goggles_id=https%253A%252F%252Fraw.githubusercontent.com%252Fbrave%252Fgoggles-quickstart%252Fmain%252Fgoggles%252Fhacker_news.goggle&nav=site https://search.brave.com/goggles?q=elon+musk&goggles_id=http...
  - mNovak 4y ago
    Buzzfeed is still the #2 result, but at least there's no tabloids

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

silverPoodle 4y ago

I love the search engine of Brave, because it's the first privacy-friendly alternative to Google, which competes with the quality of search results. DuckDuckGo, Qwant and similar search engines never give me so good results.

onelovetwo 4y ago
Its not the results I'm worried about with DDG, After all they just use bing behind the scenes anyways. It's their deep financial ties to Microsoft thats worrying. And it seems they're willing to turn their back on privacy when Microsoft asks.
- pottertheotter 4y ago
  Can you elaborate? Are there specific things they have done to “turn their back on privacy when Microsoft asks”?
  - DavideNL 4y ago
    I suspect he is confusing DuckDuckGo with Brave...: https://www.techradar.com/news/duckduckgo-in-hot-water-over-hidden-tracking-agreement-with-microsoft https://www.techradar.com/news/duckduckgo-in-hot-water-over-...
    - onelovetwo 4y ago
      I literally say DDG in my comment...
      - DavideNL 4y ago
        Sorry, misread... :-)
  - onelovetwo 4y ago
    Here. https://twitter.com/shivan_kaul/status/1528879590772338689 https://twitter.com/shivan_kaul/status/1528879590772338689

mhh__ 4y ago

I have I'd estimate one issue (e.g. requiring quotes or site search) using Google a week. When I try brave I estimate it's one impedence-mismatch a day. Not a bad product but reports of googles demise are overstated.

lostlogin 4y ago
It’s funny to compare results. I’ve acclimatised to scrolling down half the Google results page to bypass all that crap I’m served.
dubswithus 4y ago
Which has to terrify Google: You don't need to have the best product to grow, get users, and improve.
bastardoperator 4y ago
Demise? Maybe not in the short term but I would argue Google is losing trust and that's a problem for any business small or large. When given the opportunity, I try to spend my time and money elsewhere.

upupandup 4y ago

Does anybody find the constant promotion of Brave on HN annoying? Everytime I look at comments its the same handles who are also pro-crypto I can't take a browser serious when there are conflict of interset especially monetary ones in promoting it in public.

gnicholas 4y ago
I love Brave and have commented positively about my experience with it in the past. But I’ve never owned crypto, and I don’t comment on it much (or positively) on HN or elsewhere. Just an N = 1, but I imagine I’m not alone.
- kbelder 4y ago
  No, I'm in that boat with you. Crypto is pretty much a minor leftover relic of Brave's startup strategy, you don't need to touch it or deal with it. If I had to fuss with it, that would be a negative for Brave; but it's basically irrelevant.
  - dubswithus 4y ago
    > Crypto is pretty much a minor leftover relic of Brave's startup strategy How do you think Brave makes money?
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      Ads, same as every other internet company.
    - soundnote 4y ago
      By selling ads and services for normal money. The crypto is for the users to tip content creators with. Brave buys the crypto used to tip users with normal money ad revenue from the open market, as far as I know. That means the creators users gave tips inevitably have someone to sell their BAT to.
- wickedsickeune 4y ago