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> The current fentanyl epidemic in drug decriminalized Seattle is an example of how messed up decriminalization can get. Not going to get into a long conversat

> The current fentanyl epidemic in drug decriminalized Seattle is an example of how messed up decriminalization can get. Not going to get into a long conversation about it beyond just saying that this is a statement that needs a lot of qualifiers and shouldn't just be taken completely at face value. There are significant debates about what is fueling some of Seattle's current problems, and whatever people's ultimate opinions on who is right and wrong about those debates -- the debates do exist and should be taken somewhat seriously. ISeattle's drug policies obviously have some effect on the rest of the city because of course crime policy will have some effect on a city in some kind of direction, but it's just a hugely complicated topic, and stuff like "a rise in property and violent crime" very clearly have multiple inputs playing into them and pretty obviously aren't solely the result of drug policy in a single city.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
> There are significant debates about what is fueling some of Seattle's current problems, and whatever people's ultimate opinions on who is right and wrong about those debates I only know what I see, I live in Ballard so most of our crime is driven by that segment of the population. I've caught more than a few prowling my car (I have an open garage). I have to dodge people in crisis often with extra care, I don't want to get a baseball bat to the head like that poor Amazonian in Belltown. I see shoplifting at Target with impunity, I saw a guy run out with two small TVs just a couple of weeks ago. These people that are doing this look way drugged out. They look gone. It is not regular crime at all.
- danShumway 4y ago
  :shrug: This could be an enormously complicated conversation, but the short answer is that: - There is debate about whether drug policy specifically is the primary cause of the various increases in drug usage that we've seen around the US. - There is debate about whether drug addiction in cities like Seattle merely correlates with homelessness/crime or whether it is the primary causal effect. - And there are also debates on various metrics that people use that lead even people who do believe there is a causal effect to disagree with each other about how significant they think that causal effect is. And some people do believe that it's all a straight causal effect and there aren't any complications and banning the drugs will solve the problem; but there's enough debate about it from enough serious researchers and a large enough number of inputs going into the system that I think it's slightly hand-wavy to describe the relationship between specific drug policies and crime like it's an established and widely agreed on fact rather than a highly contested debate among various researchers.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Sure, I'm happy to let the decriminalization experiment play out somewhere else (e.g. in Oregon). But myself and everyone I know for that matter, are not optimistic that this is anything but a total disaster.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

> There are significant debates about what is fueling some of Seattle's current problems, and whatever people's ultimate opinions on who is right and wrong about those debates I only know what I see, I live in Ballard so most of our crime is driven by that segment of the population. I've caught more than a few prowling my car (I have an open garage). I have to dodge people in crisis often with extra care, I don't want to get a baseball bat to the head like that poor Amazonian in Belltown. I see shoplifting at Target with impunity, I saw a guy run out with two small TVs just a couple of weeks ago. These people that are doing this look way drugged out. They look gone. It is not regular crime at all.

danShumway 4y ago
:shrug: This could be an enormously complicated conversation, but the short answer is that: - There is debate about whether drug policy specifically is the primary cause of the various increases in drug usage that we've seen around the US. - There is debate about whether drug addiction in cities like Seattle merely correlates with homelessness/crime or whether it is the primary causal effect. - And there are also debates on various metrics that people use that lead even people who do believe there is a causal effect to disagree with each other about how significant they think that causal effect is. And some people do believe that it's all a straight causal effect and there aren't any complications and banning the drugs will solve the problem; but there's enough debate about it from enough serious researchers and a large enough number of inputs going into the system that I think it's slightly hand-wavy to describe the relationship between specific drug policies and crime like it's an established and widely agreed on fact rather than a highly contested debate among various researchers.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Sure, I'm happy to let the decriminalization experiment play out somewhere else (e.g. in Oregon). But myself and everyone I know for that matter, are not optimistic that this is anything but a total disaster.