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The world itself never gets better or worse. Facts or data about the world are not value-laden. We impose our values and judgments of the world and decide wheth
by vehemenz 4y ago
The world itself never gets better or worse. Facts or data about the world are not value-laden. We impose our values and judgments of the world and decide whether things are getting better or worse.
We might make judgments to this end that misalign with our values or misunderstand the data, but that doesn't mean a judgment like "the world is getting worse" will ever be wrong. It will always true in some respects and not true in other respects.
- EForEndeavour 4y agoDoesn't this just shut down conversation instead of nuance and clarity? It's definitely one way to address the ambiguity in a question like "is the world getting worse over time?" but doesn't seem useful: dismissing the question entirely discourages learning and discussion rather than adding to it. Instead, we could think of what most people (or an imagined reasonable person) might mean by that question, and how the media and scientific communities define and engage it.
- vehemenz 4y agoI'm not dismissing the question. But I don't think you can start addressing it without explicitly stating which values to measure against.
- Ensorceled 4y agoI'm genuinely curious; did you truly not understand the intent of author in the comment you are replying to? When someone says the "world is worse", I automatically know they mean a value judgment "for them" or "for humans" or "for animals" and not some scientific, objective measure on the "Planet Earth Goodness Scale". A valid criticism in this case is that they are clearly valuing humans above other species because the world is objectively worse for the Rusty-patched bumble bee, to pick an example, which is critically endangered.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- vehemenz 4y agoI don't know, but Steven Pinker (the loudest proponent of this claim) says such sincerely, and besides him, most ordinary people are moral/value realists and think there are genuine answers to these types of questions.
- Ensorceled 4y agoWell, there are genuine answers to these questions. Stephen Pinker asserts the world is getting better because, according to his value system, it is. Many, maybe even the majority, of people would agree with him because, well, we're humans. So, in this threads context, once people have the "facts", they ALSO agree that the world is better, not worse.
- Engineering-MD 4y agoYes, but that is still value laden. You cannot objectively compare 2 different domains like the benefit of improved healthcare vs the cost of destroyed ecosystems.
- Ensorceled 4y agoYes, deciding economic and political goals will ALWAYS be value based at the end of the day. I guess the point is; "this is value based" is a truism.