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If you share liberal values with the rest of us, you need to emigrate. If not, well, perhaps you can create a github clone for Russia.

throwaway290 4y ago
I'm not in Russia though. Just that citizenships and such stuff for us regular folks take a while in most countries...
Adraghast 4y ago
Seeing ignorant comments like this, it’s not hard to understand why so much of the world is sick of Western hubris.
- darthrupert 4y ago
  Russian hubris, on the other hand, is awesome and everybody loves it!
- Tabular-Iceberg 4y ago
  Even being a liberal myself, I agree that it's a mistake to push liberalism on cultures that are not interested in liberalism. This has put completely unnecessary strain on the relations between the west and places like Russia and the Middle East. What is non-negotiable on the other hand is that whoever you are and wherever you are, the rule of law must be respected. You may correctly point out that not even the west is perfect in this regard, but then go be better than the west. Be the place we should want to emigrate to, not the other way around.
  - darthrupert 4y ago
    This is true, however, Russia was moving towards a liberal direction all by itself in the 80s and 90s. That positive progress was stopped deliberately by Putin, after he rose to power with not a small amount of nefarious actions. You might say that a truly liberal nation would have managed to stop him nevertheless. Could be, but things like this often hang by very thin threads. E.g. as we know, the American democracy was very nearly destroyed in the previous presidential elections. It could have very easily gone south.
- jhugo 4y ago
  At least they didn't say "just overthrow your government", I've seen that one plenty...
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    Freedom is never granted, it is earned and paid for at the highest price [0]. What's their excuse? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre
    - Dracophoenix 4y ago
      That popular revolutions rarely work in this day and age, especially when the majority of the participants don't know how to wield a gun? In the Colonial Era, every able-bodied New England male knew how to at least, hunt and shoot. Every successful "revolution" in the modern era has depended on whose side the Army was on. Why? Because the Army is composed of people who's sole purpose is to get good at using guns.
      - 908B64B197 4y ago
        Wait, then why are most modern western government trying to impose stricter gun control measures?
        Dracophoenix 4y ago
        They impose stricter measures In a heavily misguided attempt at trading rights for security. Suffice it to say it's not really an effective solution.
        _-david-_ 4y ago
        Assuming the person you were responding to is accurate, one reason would be to prevent a revolution that kicks those in power out.
        jhugo 4y ago
        Why would any government encourage its citizens to get better at revolution?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- the_biot 4y ago
  It's a simplistic view allright, but then so is yours. Not all Russians are kremlin-dwelling villains, and not all westerners are post-colonial finger-waggers. What Github does is no doubt for business and regulatory reasons, but also moral: after decades of downright malicious behavior on the international stage (not to mention the preceding 70 years of pure evil), Russia finally sunk so low in the world's esteem that doing business with or within Russia has now become "not done"; it's seen as enabling evil to continue. Even businesses that are not affected by the sanctions now hesitate to do business there (shipping, for example). It's unjust for ordinary Russians to get caught under these sanctions, and is perilously close to collective punishment, but Russia simply, finally went too far.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    I agree that a degree of blame carries over, but the impact of measures like this (that affect ordinary Russians who left the country due to political disagreement) could be the opposite of desired. Not many Russians will be seen as eligible for asylum, regardless of their political views, and barring that the remaining options for software engineers working remotely are slowly narrowing down to returning back to the country and working to benefit its industry. Those who have families would be affected most strongly.
shrimp_emoji 4y ago
I thought the real meta was to embrace open, decentralized systems instead of corporate fiefdoms that abuse your rights and sometimes roundabout demand your emigration to a state the owners like.
- darthrupert 4y ago
  They need to emigrate because we need more good people here and Putin’s ilk does not deserve any of them. Of course, the ideal solution would be for those people to make Russia a better place, but this thread and many others seem to suggest that such a thing is not possible there. Which is obviously bullshit. Of course a revolution is possible. ”They’ll just kill everyone”. Right. Their previous revolution saw 7-12 million casualties. I’m certain that Putin would fall with a far easier struggle —- his story is far less powerful than what Lenin et al brought forth. The only significant thing he has is strength, mostly in the form of nukes and mobstery. Against a real internal uprising, that is nothing. You cannot fight your own people with nukes, and nobody respects a crime boss when their luck starts running out.
keiranlovett 4y ago
Not everyone can immigrate. This is not a "simply do this" option. It took weeks to get my partner that was simply visiting family out of Russia. They had the full support of my resources and my employers HR team assisting in relocation of families with members in Russia - and it was still an expensive, time-consuming, and stressful process.
- darthrupert 4y ago
  I didn’t say you are able to. I said you need to. But you probably knew that already.
- Tabular-Iceberg 4y ago
  Emigrate, not immigrate. It may seem nitpicky, but it really isn't because those two are polar opposites.
908B64B197 4y ago
This is the correct response. Westerners also need to lobby their government to grant temporary asylum to western-aligned smart Russians.
throwaway290 4y ago
Your point about liberal values shared by the rest of you is nice, but does not jive with reality to be honest. It's funny how many US and EU-based apologists of the invasion (blaming NATO for the war, etc.) I encounter and have to enter flamewars with to condemn kleptocracy and defend democracy. Their position is not shared by me or any of my Russian friends, but there we are. As to your point regarding creating a Github clone in Russia, I'm fairly sure it's in line with Putin's agenda.
- the_biot 4y ago
  Have you managed to convince anyone of your point of view by entering into a flame war with them?
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    It's hard to know for sure, but I hope over time it helps. The trickiest part is that many of them seem to have given up on their governments and doubt democracy, so I have to remind them that even imperfect democracy is still better than an unchecked kleptocratic dictatorship. They also argue about US being a much more prolific warmonger historically, but that's more or less besides the point.
    - the_biot 4y ago
      Indeed it is, and it's a commonly used conversation-stopper: whataboutism never solves anything. But my question was rhetorical: you can't convince anyone by flaming them. Personally I believe in calmly stating facts, with thorough analysis and logic, and lots of empathy for the other person's point of view.
      - darthrupert 4y ago
        Psychological and sociological results seem to disagree wildly with what you said there.
      - throwaway290 4y ago

throwaway290 4y ago

I'm not in Russia though. Just that citizenships and such stuff for us regular folks take a while in most countries...

Adraghast 4y ago

Seeing ignorant comments like this, it’s not hard to understand why so much of the world is sick of Western hubris.

darthrupert 4y ago
Russian hubris, on the other hand, is awesome and everybody loves it!
Tabular-Iceberg 4y ago
Even being a liberal myself, I agree that it's a mistake to push liberalism on cultures that are not interested in liberalism. This has put completely unnecessary strain on the relations between the west and places like Russia and the Middle East. What is non-negotiable on the other hand is that whoever you are and wherever you are, the rule of law must be respected. You may correctly point out that not even the west is perfect in this regard, but then go be better than the west. Be the place we should want to emigrate to, not the other way around.
- darthrupert 4y ago
  This is true, however, Russia was moving towards a liberal direction all by itself in the 80s and 90s. That positive progress was stopped deliberately by Putin, after he rose to power with not a small amount of nefarious actions. You might say that a truly liberal nation would have managed to stop him nevertheless. Could be, but things like this often hang by very thin threads. E.g. as we know, the American democracy was very nearly destroyed in the previous presidential elections. It could have very easily gone south.
jhugo 4y ago
At least they didn't say "just overthrow your government", I've seen that one plenty...
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  Freedom is never granted, it is earned and paid for at the highest price [0]. What's their excuse? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre
  - Dracophoenix 4y ago
    That popular revolutions rarely work in this day and age, especially when the majority of the participants don't know how to wield a gun? In the Colonial Era, every able-bodied New England male knew how to at least, hunt and shoot. Every successful "revolution" in the modern era has depended on whose side the Army was on. Why? Because the Army is composed of people who's sole purpose is to get good at using guns.
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      Wait, then why are most modern western government trying to impose stricter gun control measures?
      - Dracophoenix 4y ago
        They impose stricter measures In a heavily misguided attempt at trading rights for security. Suffice it to say it's not really an effective solution.
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        Assuming the person you were responding to is accurate, one reason would be to prevent a revolution that kicks those in power out.
      - jhugo 4y ago
        Why would any government encourage its citizens to get better at revolution?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
the_biot 4y ago
It's a simplistic view allright, but then so is yours. Not all Russians are kremlin-dwelling villains, and not all westerners are post-colonial finger-waggers. What Github does is no doubt for business and regulatory reasons, but also moral: after decades of downright malicious behavior on the international stage (not to mention the preceding 70 years of pure evil), Russia finally sunk so low in the world's esteem that doing business with or within Russia has now become "not done"; it's seen as enabling evil to continue. Even businesses that are not affected by the sanctions now hesitate to do business there (shipping, for example). It's unjust for ordinary Russians to get caught under these sanctions, and is perilously close to collective punishment, but Russia simply, finally went too far.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  I agree that a degree of blame carries over, but the impact of measures like this (that affect ordinary Russians who left the country due to political disagreement) could be the opposite of desired. Not many Russians will be seen as eligible for asylum, regardless of their political views, and barring that the remaining options for software engineers working remotely are slowly narrowing down to returning back to the country and working to benefit its industry. Those who have families would be affected most strongly.

shrimp_emoji 4y ago

I thought the real meta was to embrace open, decentralized systems instead of corporate fiefdoms that abuse your rights and sometimes roundabout demand your emigration to a state the owners like.

darthrupert 4y ago
They need to emigrate because we need more good people here and Putin’s ilk does not deserve any of them. Of course, the ideal solution would be for those people to make Russia a better place, but this thread and many others seem to suggest that such a thing is not possible there. Which is obviously bullshit. Of course a revolution is possible. ”They’ll just kill everyone”. Right. Their previous revolution saw 7-12 million casualties. I’m certain that Putin would fall with a far easier struggle —- his story is far less powerful than what Lenin et al brought forth. The only significant thing he has is strength, mostly in the form of nukes and mobstery. Against a real internal uprising, that is nothing. You cannot fight your own people with nukes, and nobody respects a crime boss when their luck starts running out.

keiranlovett 4y ago

Not everyone can immigrate. This is not a "simply do this" option. It took weeks to get my partner that was simply visiting family out of Russia. They had the full support of my resources and my employers HR team assisting in relocation of families with members in Russia - and it was still an expensive, time-consuming, and stressful process.

darthrupert 4y ago
I didn’t say you are able to. I said you need to. But you probably knew that already.
Tabular-Iceberg 4y ago
Emigrate, not immigrate. It may seem nitpicky, but it really isn't because those two are polar opposites.

908B64B197 4y ago

This is the correct response. Westerners also need to lobby their government to grant temporary asylum to western-aligned smart Russians.

throwaway290 4y ago

Your point about liberal values shared by the rest of you is nice, but does not jive with reality to be honest. It's funny how many US and EU-based apologists of the invasion (blaming NATO for the war, etc.) I encounter and have to enter flamewars with to condemn kleptocracy and defend democracy. Their position is not shared by me or any of my Russian friends, but there we are. As to your point regarding creating a Github clone in Russia, I'm fairly sure it's in line with Putin's agenda.

the_biot 4y ago
Have you managed to convince anyone of your point of view by entering into a flame war with them?
- throwaway290 4y ago
  It's hard to know for sure, but I hope over time it helps. The trickiest part is that many of them seem to have given up on their governments and doubt democracy, so I have to remind them that even imperfect democracy is still better than an unchecked kleptocratic dictatorship. They also argue about US being a much more prolific warmonger historically, but that's more or less besides the point.
  - the_biot 4y ago
    Indeed it is, and it's a commonly used conversation-stopper: whataboutism never solves anything. But my question was rhetorical: you can't convince anyone by flaming them. Personally I believe in calmly stating facts, with thorough analysis and logic, and lots of empathy for the other person's point of view.
    - darthrupert 4y ago
      Psychological and sociological results seem to disagree wildly with what you said there.
    - throwaway290 4y ago