10 ms·
X-Plane 12 Flight Model Update – Supersonic Transition, Delta Wings and Mass
- rideontime 4y agoAustin Meyer's blog posts are always so entertaining.
- mwambua 4y agoYeah, I’d love to have the sort of enthusiasm that he has for his work!
- GekkePrutser 4y agoSounds good, the extensive use of caps is a bit annoying though :P
- s3cur3 4y agoIt's... kind of his¹ thing. :) For instance: https://austinmeyer.com/why-does-god-hate-lancairs/ https://austinmeyer.com/why-does-god-hate-lancairs/ ¹ Austin Meyer, creator of X-Plane
- keyle 4y agoOn the other hand I love his writing. The passion for his topic and knowledge really oozes out of his words. AMAZING ;)
- thom 4y agoI dunno, I hope one day I'm as viscerally excited about fixing some bugs as this person.
- ceejayoz 4y agoI hope someone gives the author a ride on an F-4 to try it out in real life.
- edrxty 4y agoI feel like we're reliving the golden age of flight sims again. There are a lot of good options available now including X-Plane, Microsoft Flight Simulator, DCS World, VTOL-VR, Tiny Combat Arena, etc.
- mhh__ 4y agoI would say that we are in a golden age of simracing games too, and we practically are, but one company that isn't doing so well (Motorsport games) owns a lot of them and could go under.
- Koshkin 4y agoI find DCS to be the best of the bunch, and MSFS too gimmicky to my taste. For those who want to simply have fun flying (in something of a combat setting) there is also Far Cry 5 or 6 - two beautiful games I can’t recommend enough.
- selectodude 4y agoThe study-level aircraft have started coming to MSFS in droves. It's no longer a gimmick.
- Alupis 4y ago> The study-level aircraft have started coming to MSFS in droves. It's no longer a gimmick. Yes, some extremely detailed aircraft have been released, but the underlying simulation is still lacking realism in some key areas. Many aircraft just "feel wrong" when flown. But it's a ton of fun, and the nice visuals really make it a joy to fly places. I find I spend a lot of time in MSFS these days, even though I still prefer X-Plane for the overall realism.
- Stevvo 4y ago3rd party developers can only do so much. 'Study level' just isn't possible in MSFS. For example, yoke position is not linked to control surface position. Move the yoke full deflection and you only might only see the control surface move 5% if you are at a high speed. If you model an aircraft in the sim accurately without these geared control surfaces then it will pull 20G turns at 200Kts. MSFS gets the most basic parts of the flight model and controls fundamentally wrong. (source: I have made multiple payware aircraft for both X-Plane and MSFS)
- zxspectrum1982 4y ago$59.99??? Really? How can X-Plane be that cheap?
- racingmars 4y agoHopefully they also sell a lot of the $820 professional use licenses, for flight training, commercial use, etc.
- tonyarkles 4y agoI do love the business model... delete some features and charge >10x for the privilege :). More to the point, though, I get the impression that they run a pretty lean team and do a decent amount of volume. They definitely got my $60, and if going from 11 to 12 is a paid upgrade, they'll get my $60 again!
- kqr 4y agoYou're looking at it the wrong way around: delete some features and be able to offer a >90 % discount to the masses!
- upofadown 4y agoSo the flow over the top of the wing breaks free and forms a huge vortex and the drag increases tremendously? Sounds like an aerodynamic stall to me. A bit pedantic, but that is pretty much what a stall is. The nose might not drop and the aircraft might be controllable, but the wing is still stalled.
- geocrasher 4y agoNo, that's not quite right. A stall means that the air has separated from the wing and the wing is no longer flying. The huge vortex created when a delta wing is at high AoA actually causes the air to stick to the top of the wing, and this maintains control. I used to fly a 48" delta winged glider that had a catapult launch. The catapult would launch it at about 120mph. I could fly to about 300 feet in a nice vertical arc, but as soon as I yanked back on the elevons, the rather light plane would turn sharply and slow down significantly, due to the very effect discussed. A non delta wing would have been unable to maintain airflow over the wing because the high AoA (20-25 degrees) would have been far more than the 12-15 degrees that straight or swept wing can take. In other words, the Delta wing kind of acts as a giant vortex generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator
- roelschroeven 4y ago> A stall means that the air has separated from the wing and the wing is no longer flying. That's not quite right either. A wing doesn't stop flying when it stalls, i.e. when the angle of attack exceeds the critical angle of attack. What does happen is that the coefficient of lift starts to decrease instead of increase what increasing angle of attack, and with sufficient angle of attack the coefficient of lift can become too low indeed. A wing in stall can be flown, but it's tricky. Controls are inverted, natural stability of the plane doesn't really work anymore. It's not a situation you normally want to be in, but the plane does not suddenly fall from the sky.
- geocrasher 4y agoIt's true. A stalled wing still has aerodynamic properties that can be used to keep it from falling out of the sky immediately, but in the sense of the OP's comment about a delta being stalled, my definition as used to explain the difference between the two holds up. The article referenced also talks about control inversion, interestingly. So yes, a stalled wing can be "flown" but not in the same way that the original question was referencing.
- ushakov 4y agoi'm surprised that Austin Meyer's passion for flying, simulation and programming hasn't decreased one bit in the last 25+ years
- anyfoo 4y agoYeah, he's a treasure.
- zippergz 4y agoI've always enjoyed xplane but one thing I find annoying is that it seems like sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects (like 3d cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and practical to fly from a normal computer setup. The full sim setup people have built with yokes, pedals, and other controls are absolutely astonishing and it's so cool that xplane supports that. But most of us don't and can't have that kind of thing, at most a joystick and often just a keyboard and mouse. Over the years it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with that kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look cool over making it behave realistically (I don't consider having to click a graphic of a physical switch on the screen with my mouse more realistic than hitting a key on my keyboard). You can fix some of it with key mappings, but it's clear that this experience is not the priority. That said, I totally agree with the others that this is an outstanding product and a bargain at its price. My griping comes from a place of love as someone who has been using xplane for over 10 years.
- eterm 4y agoThis was always the x-plane way. I had x-plane 5 and had tons of fun flying it and because of that bought x-plane 6 and it just wasn't as fun to fly because they put so much effort into getting the flight models "more accurate" which actually meant the sim was just less fun to fly for many of the more odd planes available like the SR-71.
- zippergz 4y agoYeah, I mean, I think the "flight models are too accurate to be fun" thing is true in some cases, but it's a different issue than I'm complaining about. For me, I'd rather have super accurate flight models and really great controls via keyboard and mouse, with graphics that look like Battlezone (1980s arcade game for the youngsters) than incredibly detailed landscapes and cockpits that might be almost photorealistic but give almost no thought to what it's like to use on a normal computer without a full dedicated setup.
- Alupis 4y agoI think this might be because X-Plane isn't the type of "game" many folks are looking for in a flight sim. X-Plane prioritizes correctness and details above all else - whereas something like Microsoft Flight Simulator prioritizes eye candy and fun. Want to fly to Area 51, attempt to land a 747 on an aircraft carrier, fly above the pyramids of Egypt, fly between buildings and perform aerobatics - choose MS Flight Simulator. Want to practice patterns, procedures, participate in a live online ATC simulated community, familiarize yourself with new territory or airstrips, learn a new aircraft - choose X-Plane. That's not to say you can't use X-Plane for fun, it just means doing things like aerobatics might not come easy due to the focus on realism. Both are excellent simulators in their own right - just need to find the one you prefer. I personally fly X-Plane 11, Microsoft Flight Simulator and Prepar3D (based off older MS Flight Simulator codebase). Each has pros and cons.
- tablespoon 4y ago> First off, thanks to this intensive, minimum-sleep, once-in-a-lifetime week, we now have an F-4 flight model that is accurate enough to be used for actual F-4 flight instruction... Given the F-4 is obsolete, and it looks like it's been retired by everyone except Iran and South Korea, I wonder how practical it would have been to get an actually flight simulator for one, and reverse engineer the flight model from its software. It probably would be super-difficult computer history project, but probably pretty interesting. Might not even be worth it either, since given the technology of the time it wouldn't surprise me if the simulation actually wasn't as accurate as desired here. Interesting links found while writing this comment: https://www.digitalcheck.com/f-4-phantom-flight-simulator/ https://www.digitalcheck.com/f-4-phantom-flight-simulator/ (The F-4 Phantom: Building a Flight Simulator That Ran on Film) https://www.flightmuseum.com/explore/link-f-4-simulator/ https://www.flightmuseum.com/explore/link-f-4-simulator/ (Link F-4D "Phantom II" Simulator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMc1qqxWCeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMc1qqxWCeM ("a partial teardown of a CPK91/A24G Flight Data Computer from AireSearch - an analog electromechanical computer from the late 1960s, use to control the inner workings of the F4.")
- kqr 4y agoWhile interesting as a project for many reasons, I don't think it would have been practical for X-Plane. X-Plane is different from all other simulators in that it doesn't have a "flight model" programmed in for each aircraft. Instead it simulates the actual airflow around the body of the aircraft, based on the 3D model being rendered. So any existing simulator would likely have been fairly unhelpful: it would have an inaccurate physical model and no hints whatsoever as to how air actually flows around the plane, only shortcuts giving off hints as to what effects it has on flight dynamics. What old simulators could have been used for, I suppose, is for automating discrepancy detection: throw random scenarios with random control inputs into both the old simulator and X-Plane, then see if the aircraft response diverges. Based on that, investigate. That said, it sounds like this was exactly the instructor's job (except maybe they simulated in their head) which was probably the cheaper way to go about it in the end anyway.
- Stevvo 4y ago
- hindsightbias 4y agoHe doesn't mention fuselage lift. That's a thing in the F-4. I think 20%+ in some old aero reference book I had.
- masklinn 4y agoI'd assume fuselage lift was already part of the model because of previous aircrafts.
- avereveard 4y agohttps://developer.x-plane.com/2018/05/better-fuselages-through-science/#more-8477 https://developer.x-plane.com/2018/05/better-fuselages-throu... his take on fuselage
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bvanderveen 4y agoI love that Austen Meyer is still blogging about a week of all-nighters on his pet project almost 30 years later, and the level of palpable stoke is off the charts. A gem!
- dTal 4y agoYou can tell immediately that Austin wrote the post because of the FREQUENT use of CAPSLOCK.
- wbobeirne 4y agoJust getting into the sim world with MSFS but looking to pick up X-Plane as well. I see this is about X-Plane 12, but it's not for sale yet. Anyone know how their release schedule works? Are there upgrade paths if I buy X-Plane 11 now?
- complex1314 4y agoThere's no upgrade path. But if you wait until the early access of X-plane 12 you will get v11 free while it is in pre-release. It seems early access is just around the corner, I've seen late July mentioned.
- Alupis 4y agoI don't know about an upgrade path - it was too long ago for me to recall. For what it's worth, I bought X-Plane 11 on Steam, and X-Plane 10 stand-alone - so perhaps I didn't have many options. However, something to keep in mind for someone newerish to siming in general - not just flight sims: Whatever payware you purchase now (aircraft models, plugins, scenery, airports, etc) will almost certainly (with a few exceptions) not port over to the new sim version... meaning you'll have to buy them again unfortunately. This is part of the reason you still see people flying older sims - they put a lot of money into it, and/or their favorite model isn't available yet or something. So anything you bought today for X-Plane 11 might not port to X-Plane 12 when it comes out, depending on what engine changes have happened under the hood to X-Plane. It's not a hard rule, but something to keep in mind.
- Stevvo 4y agoLaminar go to great lengths to keep aircraft from the previous version compatible. Only occasionally developers with DRM try to scam people to buy the same plane again.
- Alupis 4y agoThat's really great to know. Although I wouldn't necessarily classify having to purchase the same model again as a scam - depending what's changed in the engine, it may require a lot of work to update the model to fully take advantage of everything X-Plane 12 (for instance) offers. If there's a substantial update for the model, I would personally feel fine buying a new version. However, really nice to see Austin and Laminar have thought of this - some of us have waaaay too much invested into models and plugins!
- otikik 4y agoI am totally not into this kind of thing, but I can appreciate and admire passion when I see it. Well done on working on what you love, OP.
- bsder 4y agoThe F-4 Phantom: Proof that pigs can fly if you strap big enough engines to their ass.
- cwillu 4y agoThe F-4 Phantom: we figured out how the bumblebee does it.
- ngcc_hk 4y agoStrategically they have to think issues of living with a big giant. Niche may be ok. But really have to think hard. One simple thing they can do is to ensure the keyboard and joystick etc can have an option of fs2020 mode. This will ease the transition. Given those model are coming to fs2020, there could be cross selling band upgrading. And whether one can do AIRSIM etc (air traffic) and map etc cross selling and compatibility and price option etc. There could be more thinking. Live in a world of giant require hard thinking. Otherwise it would be like wordstar, word perfect and multimate etc that go in history. Office and word … Or do anti-trust etc but that game is just getting the money but not the customers. I think the fs2020 is easier to get in, tutor is fine and even have lane you can fly in and around to teach you. But once you exceed that and say want a fight (just peace is not mankind and not prepare for it give us Ukraine invasion - imagine they have … others will just take advantage of you; having said that if you just rely upon other mercy of neutrality … hence luckily they are prepared a bit and uk trained them a bit) to keep the fighting spirit. If you have no war in fs2020, you can have it in others. I am not sure how xplane can survive in its current form or would it move away from “consumer” but for flight training niche. Dcs should be fine as a compliment as I do not see anytime soon dogfight or missile hacking onto fs2020. Please think harder. We need more not less.
- watersb 4y agoX-Plane has been amazing forever. Obsessive.