5 ms·

So does putting them on a treadmill or making them drink 6 cups of coffee. Remember the inverse DOES NOT hold. If you train to do 180 second one leg stands you

So does putting them on a treadmill or making them drink 6 cups of coffee. Remember the inverse DOES NOT hold. If you train to do 180 second one leg stands you aren't like increasing your survivability. -- edit One additional note though, > Deaths from unintentional injuries are the seventh leading cause of death among older adults (1), and falls account for the largest percentage of those deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6718a1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6718a1.htm

jeffbee 4y ago
Doesn't that directly contradict the article? The article is discussing people who die, in part, from falls. If you train for balance and don't fall, then you are less likely to die, no?
- hinkley 4y ago
  It’s also a terrible way to go out. Pneumonia is drowning in slow motion.
- karpierz 4y ago
  I think what GP is saying is that this test correlates with things like 'fitness' and 'balance', which themselves are causally related to health outcomes. But training to balance on one leg doesn't mean that your 'balance' or 'fitness' overall improve. It might be that one legged balance doesn't improve 'balance' and so doesn't improve your health outcomes. Or 'balance' is irrelevant, and it's just that 'fitness' means you're less winded at the top of the steps, and so you're less likely to fall down at the top.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    > But training to balance on one leg doesn't mean that your 'balance' or 'fitness' overall improve. I'm gunna need a citation on that one. Training you balance is likely to increase your overall balance. Like, by definition. If you can stand on one leg well, then you have the muscles and the equilibrium to balance yourself. Therefore you are less likely to fall.
    - karpierz 4y ago
      I'm not making an empirical claim here. I am trying to explain why their results do not imply that "training to balance on one leg" causes good health outcomes. I'm saying that this experiment: 1. Does not define 'balance' 2. Does not show that the test they applied predicts or correlates with 'balance' 3. Does not show that 'balance' causes good health outcomes.
  - UnpossibleJim 4y ago
    I put it with the correlation to health decline and grip strength. While training pure grip strength will not keep your health from declining, there is a natural tendency to increase grip strength with full body exercises and strength training, which help people live longer by increasing cardiovascular health and pushing blood to our extremities. There's even some (I'm not sure how much) research into this type of full body exercise helping ward off cognitive decline... but the articles focus on the grip strength, as that's the one through factor as you use your hands in body weight exercises, kettle bells, dumbells, martial arts, climbing, etc.
    - nradov 4y ago
      A strong grip can sometimes prevent a bad fall. Grab the railing before you fall down the stairs.
- jewayne 4y ago
  I have yet to read the article, but the only way to prove out an intervention, is to test the intervention. "Ability to do X, in absence of intervention, is predictive of longevity" does not equate to "Training X as an intervention will increase longevity." That intervention MUST be tested, separately.
- michaelt 4y ago
  It depends if there's some confounding factor that wasn't accounted for. Perhaps 50 years of dance/yoga/gymnastics/core strength/martial arts leads to both fewer falls and greater 1-leg stance duration. A much shorter course of balance training much later in life might be insufficient to replicate the same benefits.
hinkley 4y ago
My tai chi instructor is retirement age and got aggressive martial arts out of their system at a young age. We were taught that the enemy we are most likely to fight is the environment, not some assailant. And for me that’s been truer than for most[1]. I’ve taken a few bad spills off of steps or curbs that might have put me into a cast or on crutches, and in almost all of them I didn’t even end up with a limp due to reflexes I trained in tai chi. If you have ever tried meditation and found it physically too painful, I highly recommend you try a tai chi class. I found it quite easy to turn the warmups into standing meditation, having failed many times before. 1. As a child I drew bad attention regularly, but genes and life choices have put me into a privileged place. It took walking to lunch with coworkers through a “bad” neighborhood for this to really hit home. Nobody was going to bother me, but I’d seen other people get bothered, and it hit me that nobody bothered them only because I was walking in front of them. It certainly could be the case that tai chi helps you with such things, but that was not so for most of my fellow students, and certainly not for some of the bigger guys.
- colordrops 4y ago
  What form are you studying? I started with Yang, which is the most common one you find in the US, but also usually taught in a way that is very soft and the benefits are mild. I travelled to china and started with a Chen New style instructor, and it blew me away. Dripping sweat, exhausted, sparring regularly. Lots more stretching and Qigong. Pretty much standard martial arts training. But way more effective than Yang at building skills and mindfulness.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Chen if you can find it for sure. The body mechanics of Chen is more obsessed with avoiding locked joints, and when I see videos of people who make me want to complain, it’s either Yang or someone who has split off from Chen more recently. The legend of Yang Style is that it was started by one of the first outsiders ever allowed to study at Chen village. As with most things Eastern, the early expats we’nt always representative of the way things were done back in China. You’re right about the sweat. It’s as hard a workout as you make it. My sifu joked once, “this is difficult at the beginning but don’t worry, as you progress it will get harder.” The interesting thing is laugh response. When you don’t know how on earth you’re going to hold this pose, people end up laughing nervously. Pro tips for anyone thinking of dropping into a class: I highly, highly recommend starting the next morning with as vigorous a walk as you can manage. Even a brief power walk will blow a lot of the lactic acid out of muscles you aren’t used to using. And you are going to fart. Everyone goes through it at first. You are going to engage your core in ways you never have before, and some of that pressure is going to escape. Maybe avoid spicy foods the day before though.
elmolino89 4y ago
>If you train to do 180 second one leg stands you aren't like increasing your > survivability. This depends on the exact nature of the correlation between the survival and the "one leg stand up time" (OLSUT). Even if we treat the second as a symptom of some debilitating, death causing disease, say cancer or heart ischemia then it is plausible that with stronger legs one will succumb to such malady a bit later. More likely OLSUT is a more reliable indicator of a physical activity of a person than a questionaries directly asking for it. Unless cornered even alcoholics seldom confess drinking in excess. Sedentary persons probably do not divulge that they have not walk 2km a day in a last year or so. Last but not least, as mentioned by many above: OLSUT can lower the risk of falls. And with 70+ falls -> broken bones -> bed -> pneumonias and/or thrombosis.

jeffbee 4y ago

Doesn't that directly contradict the article? The article is discussing people who die, in part, from falls. If you train for balance and don't fall, then you are less likely to die, no?

hinkley 4y ago
It’s also a terrible way to go out. Pneumonia is drowning in slow motion.
karpierz 4y ago
I think what GP is saying is that this test correlates with things like 'fitness' and 'balance', which themselves are causally related to health outcomes. But training to balance on one leg doesn't mean that your 'balance' or 'fitness' overall improve. It might be that one legged balance doesn't improve 'balance' and so doesn't improve your health outcomes. Or 'balance' is irrelevant, and it's just that 'fitness' means you're less winded at the top of the steps, and so you're less likely to fall down at the top.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  > But training to balance on one leg doesn't mean that your 'balance' or 'fitness' overall improve. I'm gunna need a citation on that one. Training you balance is likely to increase your overall balance. Like, by definition. If you can stand on one leg well, then you have the muscles and the equilibrium to balance yourself. Therefore you are less likely to fall.
  - karpierz 4y ago
    I'm not making an empirical claim here. I am trying to explain why their results do not imply that "training to balance on one leg" causes good health outcomes. I'm saying that this experiment: 1. Does not define 'balance' 2. Does not show that the test they applied predicts or correlates with 'balance' 3. Does not show that 'balance' causes good health outcomes.
- UnpossibleJim 4y ago
  I put it with the correlation to health decline and grip strength. While training pure grip strength will not keep your health from declining, there is a natural tendency to increase grip strength with full body exercises and strength training, which help people live longer by increasing cardiovascular health and pushing blood to our extremities. There's even some (I'm not sure how much) research into this type of full body exercise helping ward off cognitive decline... but the articles focus on the grip strength, as that's the one through factor as you use your hands in body weight exercises, kettle bells, dumbells, martial arts, climbing, etc.
  - nradov 4y ago
    A strong grip can sometimes prevent a bad fall. Grab the railing before you fall down the stairs.
jewayne 4y ago
I have yet to read the article, but the only way to prove out an intervention, is to test the intervention. "Ability to do X, in absence of intervention, is predictive of longevity" does not equate to "Training X as an intervention will increase longevity." That intervention MUST be tested, separately.
michaelt 4y ago
It depends if there's some confounding factor that wasn't accounted for. Perhaps 50 years of dance/yoga/gymnastics/core strength/martial arts leads to both fewer falls and greater 1-leg stance duration. A much shorter course of balance training much later in life might be insufficient to replicate the same benefits.

hinkley 4y ago

My tai chi instructor is retirement age and got aggressive martial arts out of their system at a young age. We were taught that the enemy we are most likely to fight is the environment, not some assailant. And for me that’s been truer than for most[1]. I’ve taken a few bad spills off of steps or curbs that might have put me into a cast or on crutches, and in almost all of them I didn’t even end up with a limp due to reflexes I trained in tai chi. If you have ever tried meditation and found it physically too painful, I highly recommend you try a tai chi class. I found it quite easy to turn the warmups into standing meditation, having failed many times before. 1. As a child I drew bad attention regularly, but genes and life choices have put me into a privileged place. It took walking to lunch with coworkers through a “bad” neighborhood for this to really hit home. Nobody was going to bother me, but I’d seen other people get bothered, and it hit me that nobody bothered them only because I was walking in front of them. It certainly could be the case that tai chi helps you with such things, but that was not so for most of my fellow students, and certainly not for some of the bigger guys.

colordrops 4y ago
What form are you studying? I started with Yang, which is the most common one you find in the US, but also usually taught in a way that is very soft and the benefits are mild. I travelled to china and started with a Chen New style instructor, and it blew me away. Dripping sweat, exhausted, sparring regularly. Lots more stretching and Qigong. Pretty much standard martial arts training. But way more effective than Yang at building skills and mindfulness.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Chen if you can find it for sure. The body mechanics of Chen is more obsessed with avoiding locked joints, and when I see videos of people who make me want to complain, it’s either Yang or someone who has split off from Chen more recently. The legend of Yang Style is that it was started by one of the first outsiders ever allowed to study at Chen village. As with most things Eastern, the early expats we’nt always representative of the way things were done back in China. You’re right about the sweat. It’s as hard a workout as you make it. My sifu joked once, “this is difficult at the beginning but don’t worry, as you progress it will get harder.” The interesting thing is laugh response. When you don’t know how on earth you’re going to hold this pose, people end up laughing nervously. Pro tips for anyone thinking of dropping into a class: I highly, highly recommend starting the next morning with as vigorous a walk as you can manage. Even a brief power walk will blow a lot of the lactic acid out of muscles you aren’t used to using. And you are going to fart. Everyone goes through it at first. You are going to engage your core in ways you never have before, and some of that pressure is going to escape. Maybe avoid spicy foods the day before though.

elmolino89 4y ago

>If you train to do 180 second one leg stands you aren't like increasing your > survivability. This depends on the exact nature of the correlation between the survival and the "one leg stand up time" (OLSUT). Even if we treat the second as a symptom of some debilitating, death causing disease, say cancer or heart ischemia then it is plausible that with stronger legs one will succumb to such malady a bit later. More likely OLSUT is a more reliable indicator of a physical activity of a person than a questionaries directly asking for it. Unless cornered even alcoholics seldom confess drinking in excess. Sedentary persons probably do not divulge that they have not walk 2km a day in a last year or so. Last but not least, as mentioned by many above: OLSUT can lower the risk of falls. And with 70+ falls -> broken bones -> bed -> pneumonias and/or thrombosis.