7 ms·

I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive. Laundry is literally filled with things to know, outside of these symbo

by b112 4y ago

I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive. Laundry is literally filled with things to know, outside of these symbols. Household tasks are. I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. Yet people have done that in the wash, so why not start there? Here's what each sane person should do, who actually takes time to look at tags. (after all if you couldn't care less, and never look at tags, what's the point?) Print a copy of the extended tag list out, and hang it in the laundry room at home. I have a cabinet where I keep extra detergent, etc, so I taped it up on the inside of the door. Problem sovled. For a laundrymat, for your smartphone, download a properly formatted, for easy phone viewing version. Done. Non-problem, compared to expecting the entire planet to change. We don't need another standard!! All that would happen is I'd have two standards to look at.

Aeolun 4y ago
That’s not ‘problem solved’. That’s an ‘acceptable workaround’. The problem is ultimately that the symbols are so abstract that nobody remembers them.
iratewizard 4y ago
The tags aren't that hard to remember, either. Do not bleach is the only one that you have to think, oh right the triangle is a bottle of bleach. The circle in a square is describing spin cycle. The circle with no square is describing drying without heat. The iron is describing an iron. The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron. I remember this in spite of not having done laundry in 5 years. And you're exactly right. New symbols mean little to me, I would still need to look them up and then there would be twice as many bad symbols. This redesign article is an example of why you should avoid UI/UX people who can only design. They'll change your branding everytime they get bored and create more headache than they solve.
- Izkata 4y ago
  > The circle with no square is describing drying without heat. That's the square with no circle, the circle with no square is very different.
- 0xffff2 4y ago
  > The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron. Just to highlight how non-universal these symbol are, I have never had an iron that has three levels of heat or that represents the levels with dots.
  - elpescado 4y ago
    It's not "only three levels". All my irons have had "continuous" "level" knob, with three "presets", represented as dots. Along with other "presets" for different kinds of things to iron. But maybe that's Euro thing. Funny thing, those two do not match. For example, on my current iron "Cotton" is marked at three-dots, whereas all my cotton clothes have labels that insist on ironing them on two-dots.
croes 4y ago
Perhaps the symbols should simply be printed on the detergent packaging together with an explanation.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  In what language(s)? Then you run out of room on the packaging/waste paper. The point of symbols is that they can tell more information in a smaller space and can be recognized universally. Maybe you gotta look them up on your own, but after a while, you learn the ones you need to.
  - etbebl 4y ago
    Uh, how about in the primary language(s) used in the market where the detergent is sold? The other text on the bottle is already localized.
Fatnino 4y ago
Bleach and vinegar are both acidic, it's acids and bases (like ammonia. Main ingredient in Windex) that should not be mixed due to the potentially toxic gases they will produce.
- leephillips 4y ago
  So very wrong. Bleach is pH 12 or so. (Chlorine) bleach mixed with ammonia (which is a base) or any acid, including vinegar, will release the chemical weapon chlorine gas.
- jeffwask 4y ago
  Bleach's pH is above 7 therefore it is alkaline not acidic
vidanay 4y ago
> I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. You sure about that?
- mikestew 4y ago
  Well, I can’t speak to your tolerance for chlorine gas, but… Or were you saying that the bleach bottles on your shelf state that one should not mix bleach with acids such as vinegar? I’d actually have to go look at mine, but I don’t recall a mention. So I looked: the warning is in the middle of a wall of text, with print so small only pedantic geeks with good, young eyes are going to bother. Let alone be able to read it, anyone over 40 will need a magnifier.
  - vidanay 4y ago
    I was referring to the statement that the bottles don't contain a warning, not about the chemical reaction that obviously exists. It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners". If it only said vinegar, then someone would mix it with ammonia and when they died, they'd claim "it only said vinegar!"
    - mikestew 4y ago
      It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners" Without going back and straining my eyes, I don't think it even goes that far. Just do not mix with acids, and it specifically called out "urine and feces", from which I guess we're supposed to surmise that it is not a toilet cleaner? It's a difficult problem, yes, because "but it didn't say not to..." But again, I'm pretty sure the solution does not lie in a wall of 6 pt. text., regardless of what it needs to say.
jeffwask 4y ago
> I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive. I tend to agree. As a culture we have the knowledge of the world in our pocket day in and day out yet we have become lazy and even obstinate about using it. I've started turning gardening and landscaping into a bit of a hobby with my new house. I'm constantly looking up specifics on plants, how to prune, and etc. It is so much easier than when I last had a house. The workflow no longer requires amassed knowledge, books, or keeping every tag that came with every plant. It's now: Take a photo of plant Use app to identify Get all the info you need
- keybored 4y ago
  > I tend to agree. As a culture we have the knowledge of the world in our pocket day in and day out yet we have become lazy and even obstinate about using it. What do you think the problem (one of them) with the Information Age is? The affordance of lookup makes it so that we have to look up more and more. And then we have to arrange more and more information in order to make the frequently-needed information convenient enough to look up.
  - jeffwask 4y ago
    I think it's very generational. I'm Gen-X but I cut my teeth on BBS's and IRC. I've been connected and looked forward to being more connected since the early 90's. Part of my generation and most of the previous generations IMO have never fully embraced a connected world. Just watching how much quarantine crushed some people and how some of us doubled down on online lives that were already fulfilling (discord, watch parties and online interaction). I've always felt judged by my older friends / folks my age about how I live my life. (I met my wife in an MMO a decade ago and we moved across the country to be together.) When forced to go online, the generation that rejected online have an allergic reaction. I can't even count the number of times I have been texted or called for something personally or professionally that could be found in a 5 minute search by people who reject the idea of even searching first. Long story short, I think it will literally die out.
Flimm 4y ago
I would highly recommend reading some UX classics such as: - The Inmate Are Running The Asylum by Alan Cooper - The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman (and I'm sure there are many more good resources that are recent than that.) It's very easy as tech-savvy people like us to underestimate how hard technology, even conventions like laundry symbols, are. I personally have printed out a legend explaining the laundry symbols and put them near to my washing machine, but I'm the only person I know who does that. Everyone else guesses or struggles to use laundry symbols correctly, or reads the text in English if it is provided. Now, does that mean we should change all the laundry symbols just because one person shared a redesign on their blog? No. Changing something that is so well-established has significant downsides and risks. But I think it's perfectly legitimate to spot their difficulties, and to pursue better UX relentlessly, with testing with real users. That's what separates a good (UX) designer from an engineer who produces something that fits their mindset but not the mindset of actual users.
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  They aren't well-known, at least according to the article. I myself recognize that I've seen a few of them, but since they are as cryptic as Egyptian hieroglyphs to me, I ignore them.
  - iforgotpassword 4y ago
    They aren't well known, but they're an international standard. Getting everyone to switch to a new system will take a huge effort. As others said above, there are just so many symbols that I dare to claim it is impossible to come up with a symbol set that is self explanatory, or easy to memorize. As soon as you're in doubt about any symbol, you'd have to look it up, and then it doesn't matter whether you need to look up one or three. I only know the one for temperature, the "no dryer" one, "wash by hand" and "no spin-dry". But like you, I don't give a shit. I wash everything at 60 (underwear, bed sheets, towels) or 40 (everything else) °C with spin-dry at 1400rpm.[*] Some pieces might wear faster, but so be it. I guess the vast majority of people does it that way. [*] Ok ok, except wool or cashmere, or a suit. But this is something I just learned from my mom at young age, not by researching any symbols.
macksd 4y ago
There are warnings on my bleach bottles saying not to mix with things. But that didn't stop my wife from doing it once. Generally people don't RTFM even if you put it on the bottle in big red letters. edit: Just to be clear, though, I agree with you - people should educate themselves and the fact that people won't make a point of educating themselves is the problem. I've had multiple experiences where I paused to look up if it was safe to mix medications that were being given to my kids, or if it was safe to use a human first aid ointment on a pet. Sometimes the answer is 'No!' but the general reaction is usually "Oh I wouldn't worry about it".
corrral 4y ago
Are people seeing some huge benefits from paying attention to these symbols? I've been, as the kids say, "adulting" for some time, and pay no attention to them. I couldn't draw a single one from memory. If you showed me one, I'd only be able to guess at the meaning. All I do is not wash stuff that says "dry clean only" (it always just says it in text, I have no idea if there even is a symbol for that) and favor cooler water & cooler dry cycles. I air-dry anything wool (if it's not in the "dry clean only" category). Color-safe detergents have been the norm since my very early adulthood. I remember ads for it when I was a kid but by the time I was buying detergent, most detergent was color safe. I've never even bothered to sort by color, aside from keeping raw denim away from everything else (on the rare occasions it's washed at all). What am I missing out on? My family's clothes seem to last just fine. My wife pays even less attention to this stuff than I do, and everything seems OK.
- jerf 4y ago
  This has been one of my favorite Dilbert cartoons for a while: https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-12-27 https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-12-27 It's been my wife & I's philosophy on clothes for a while and it's been working out. I'm sure it's suboptimal and I'm sure I don't care.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  It works fine (90% of the time) until it doesn't And yes, I do pay attention (to the special cases). T-shirt? It's a t-shirt. Winter coat? Fancy suit? See what it says. Or send it to be professionally cleaned. Where it usually fails (with everyday stuff) is that people DNGAF and dry their clothes at 90C then come to heavily shrunk garments. Or with faded colors.
- 0xffff2 4y ago
  Yeah, I can summarize my laundry habits as follows: - Dry clean formal clothes - Air dry wool - If I'm going through a raw denim phase, keep it out of the regular laundry - Everything else goes in the washer set on permanent press and then in the dryer at medium heat Never in 17 years of doing my own laundry has this system failed me in any way.
seoaeu 4y ago
> I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. Have you looked? Mine says “STRONG OXIDIZING AGENT: Mix only with water. Mixing this product with chemicals […] may release hazardous gases”
- ben_w 4y ago
  The vinegar, meanwhile, proudly says it is organic and "100% chemical-free" (yes yes, I know): https://www.lazada.com.ph/products/quezons-best-organic-spiced-coconut-sap-vinegar-375ml-100-chemical-free-i319950031.html https://www.lazada.com.ph/products/quezons-best-organic-spic...
themitigating 4y ago
Let's say that you have a set of symbols and 30% of the people who view them are able to derive their meaning without research. Why not try to increase that number? What's the downsides excluding the time making the new symbols.
- philwelch 4y ago
  Another downside would be people who know the existing symbols having to learn the new ones.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Not if the symbols are intuitive. Remember I'm saying that in a population you are increasing the percentage that can derive the meaning of the symbols without research. That includes those that already knew the previous symbols, so it doesn't matter 30% to 50% regardless of who was what type in the past set. It's like if you changed the floppy disk icon in MS Word to a text box that read "SAVE".
    - philwelch 4y ago
      Right, which means people who don’t speak English would be at a disadvantage even if they recognize the universal “save” icon that’s been used for 30 years.

by b112 4y ago

Aeolun 4y ago

That’s not ‘problem solved’. That’s an ‘acceptable workaround’. The problem is ultimately that the symbols are so abstract that nobody remembers them.

iratewizard 4y ago

The tags aren't that hard to remember, either. Do not bleach is the only one that you have to think, oh right the triangle is a bottle of bleach. The circle in a square is describing spin cycle. The circle with no square is describing drying without heat. The iron is describing an iron. The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron. I remember this in spite of not having done laundry in 5 years. And you're exactly right. New symbols mean little to me, I would still need to look them up and then there would be twice as many bad symbols. This redesign article is an example of why you should avoid UI/UX people who can only design. They'll change your branding everytime they get bored and create more headache than they solve.

Izkata 4y ago
> The circle with no square is describing drying without heat. That's the square with no circle, the circle with no square is very different.
0xffff2 4y ago
> The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron. Just to highlight how non-universal these symbol are, I have never had an iron that has three levels of heat or that represents the levels with dots.
- elpescado 4y ago
  It's not "only three levels". All my irons have had "continuous" "level" knob, with three "presets", represented as dots. Along with other "presets" for different kinds of things to iron. But maybe that's Euro thing. Funny thing, those two do not match. For example, on my current iron "Cotton" is marked at three-dots, whereas all my cotton clothes have labels that insist on ironing them on two-dots.

croes 4y ago

Perhaps the symbols should simply be printed on the detergent packaging together with an explanation.

dfxm12 4y ago
In what language(s)? Then you run out of room on the packaging/waste paper. The point of symbols is that they can tell more information in a smaller space and can be recognized universally. Maybe you gotta look them up on your own, but after a while, you learn the ones you need to.
- etbebl 4y ago
  Uh, how about in the primary language(s) used in the market where the detergent is sold? The other text on the bottle is already localized.

Fatnino 4y ago

Bleach and vinegar are both acidic, it's acids and bases (like ammonia. Main ingredient in Windex) that should not be mixed due to the potentially toxic gases they will produce.

leephillips 4y ago
So very wrong. Bleach is pH 12 or so. (Chlorine) bleach mixed with ammonia (which is a base) or any acid, including vinegar, will release the chemical weapon chlorine gas.
jeffwask 4y ago
Bleach's pH is above 7 therefore it is alkaline not acidic

vidanay 4y ago

> I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. You sure about that?

mikestew 4y ago
Well, I can’t speak to your tolerance for chlorine gas, but… Or were you saying that the bleach bottles on your shelf state that one should not mix bleach with acids such as vinegar? I’d actually have to go look at mine, but I don’t recall a mention. So I looked: the warning is in the middle of a wall of text, with print so small only pedantic geeks with good, young eyes are going to bother. Let alone be able to read it, anyone over 40 will need a magnifier.
- vidanay 4y ago
  I was referring to the statement that the bottles don't contain a warning, not about the chemical reaction that obviously exists. It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners". If it only said vinegar, then someone would mix it with ammonia and when they died, they'd claim "it only said vinegar!"
  - mikestew 4y ago
    It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners" Without going back and straining my eyes, I don't think it even goes that far. Just do not mix with acids, and it specifically called out "urine and feces", from which I guess we're supposed to surmise that it is not a toilet cleaner? It's a difficult problem, yes, because "but it didn't say not to..." But again, I'm pretty sure the solution does not lie in a wall of 6 pt. text., regardless of what it needs to say.

jeffwask 4y ago

> I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive. I tend to agree. As a culture we have the knowledge of the world in our pocket day in and day out yet we have become lazy and even obstinate about using it. I've started turning gardening and landscaping into a bit of a hobby with my new house. I'm constantly looking up specifics on plants, how to prune, and etc. It is so much easier than when I last had a house. The workflow no longer requires amassed knowledge, books, or keeping every tag that came with every plant. It's now: Take a photo of plant Use app to identify Get all the info you need

keybored 4y ago
> I tend to agree. As a culture we have the knowledge of the world in our pocket day in and day out yet we have become lazy and even obstinate about using it. What do you think the problem (one of them) with the Information Age is? The affordance of lookup makes it so that we have to look up more and more. And then we have to arrange more and more information in order to make the frequently-needed information convenient enough to look up.
- jeffwask 4y ago
  I think it's very generational. I'm Gen-X but I cut my teeth on BBS's and IRC. I've been connected and looked forward to being more connected since the early 90's. Part of my generation and most of the previous generations IMO have never fully embraced a connected world. Just watching how much quarantine crushed some people and how some of us doubled down on online lives that were already fulfilling (discord, watch parties and online interaction). I've always felt judged by my older friends / folks my age about how I live my life. (I met my wife in an MMO a decade ago and we moved across the country to be together.) When forced to go online, the generation that rejected online have an allergic reaction. I can't even count the number of times I have been texted or called for something personally or professionally that could be found in a 5 minute search by people who reject the idea of even searching first. Long story short, I think it will literally die out.

Flimm 4y ago

I would highly recommend reading some UX classics such as: - The Inmate Are Running The Asylum by Alan Cooper - The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman (and I'm sure there are many more good resources that are recent than that.) It's very easy as tech-savvy people like us to underestimate how hard technology, even conventions like laundry symbols, are. I personally have printed out a legend explaining the laundry symbols and put them near to my washing machine, but I'm the only person I know who does that. Everyone else guesses or struggles to use laundry symbols correctly, or reads the text in English if it is provided. Now, does that mean we should change all the laundry symbols just because one person shared a redesign on their blog? No. Changing something that is so well-established has significant downsides and risks. But I think it's perfectly legitimate to spot their difficulties, and to pursue better UX relentlessly, with testing with real users. That's what separates a good (UX) designer from an engineer who produces something that fits their mindset but not the mindset of actual users.

readthenotes1 4y ago
They aren't well-known, at least according to the article. I myself recognize that I've seen a few of them, but since they are as cryptic as Egyptian hieroglyphs to me, I ignore them.
- iforgotpassword 4y ago
  They aren't well known, but they're an international standard. Getting everyone to switch to a new system will take a huge effort. As others said above, there are just so many symbols that I dare to claim it is impossible to come up with a symbol set that is self explanatory, or easy to memorize. As soon as you're in doubt about any symbol, you'd have to look it up, and then it doesn't matter whether you need to look up one or three. I only know the one for temperature, the "no dryer" one, "wash by hand" and "no spin-dry". But like you, I don't give a shit. I wash everything at 60 (underwear, bed sheets, towels) or 40 (everything else) °C with spin-dry at 1400rpm.[*] Some pieces might wear faster, but so be it. I guess the vast majority of people does it that way. [*] Ok ok, except wool or cashmere, or a suit. But this is something I just learned from my mom at young age, not by researching any symbols.

macksd 4y ago

There are warnings on my bleach bottles saying not to mix with things. But that didn't stop my wife from doing it once. Generally people don't RTFM even if you put it on the bottle in big red letters. edit: Just to be clear, though, I agree with you - people should educate themselves and the fact that people won't make a point of educating themselves is the problem. I've had multiple experiences where I paused to look up if it was safe to mix medications that were being given to my kids, or if it was safe to use a human first aid ointment on a pet. Sometimes the answer is 'No!' but the general reaction is usually "Oh I wouldn't worry about it".

corrral 4y ago

Are people seeing some huge benefits from paying attention to these symbols? I've been, as the kids say, "adulting" for some time, and pay no attention to them. I couldn't draw a single one from memory. If you showed me one, I'd only be able to guess at the meaning. All I do is not wash stuff that says "dry clean only" (it always just says it in text, I have no idea if there even is a symbol for that) and favor cooler water & cooler dry cycles. I air-dry anything wool (if it's not in the "dry clean only" category). Color-safe detergents have been the norm since my very early adulthood. I remember ads for it when I was a kid but by the time I was buying detergent, most detergent was color safe. I've never even bothered to sort by color, aside from keeping raw denim away from everything else (on the rare occasions it's washed at all). What am I missing out on? My family's clothes seem to last just fine. My wife pays even less attention to this stuff than I do, and everything seems OK.

jerf 4y ago
This has been one of my favorite Dilbert cartoons for a while: https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-12-27 https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-12-27 It's been my wife & I's philosophy on clothes for a while and it's been working out. I'm sure it's suboptimal and I'm sure I don't care.
raverbashing 4y ago
It works fine (90% of the time) until it doesn't And yes, I do pay attention (to the special cases). T-shirt? It's a t-shirt. Winter coat? Fancy suit? See what it says. Or send it to be professionally cleaned. Where it usually fails (with everyday stuff) is that people DNGAF and dry their clothes at 90C then come to heavily shrunk garments. Or with faded colors.
0xffff2 4y ago
Yeah, I can summarize my laundry habits as follows: - Dry clean formal clothes - Air dry wool - If I'm going through a raw denim phase, keep it out of the regular laundry - Everything else goes in the washer set on permanent press and then in the dryer at medium heat Never in 17 years of doing my own laundry has this system failed me in any way.

seoaeu 4y ago

> I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. Have you looked? Mine says “STRONG OXIDIZING AGENT: Mix only with water. Mixing this product with chemicals […] may release hazardous gases”

ben_w 4y ago
The vinegar, meanwhile, proudly says it is organic and "100% chemical-free" (yes yes, I know): https://www.lazada.com.ph/products/quezons-best-organic-spiced-coconut-sap-vinegar-375ml-100-chemical-free-i319950031.html https://www.lazada.com.ph/products/quezons-best-organic-spic...

themitigating 4y ago

Let's say that you have a set of symbols and 30% of the people who view them are able to derive their meaning without research. Why not try to increase that number? What's the downsides excluding the time making the new symbols.

philwelch 4y ago
Another downside would be people who know the existing symbols having to learn the new ones.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Not if the symbols are intuitive. Remember I'm saying that in a population you are increasing the percentage that can derive the meaning of the symbols without research. That includes those that already knew the previous symbols, so it doesn't matter 30% to 50% regardless of who was what type in the past set. It's like if you changed the floppy disk icon in MS Word to a text box that read "SAVE".
  - philwelch 4y ago
    Right, which means people who don’t speak English would be at a disadvantage even if they recognize the universal “save” icon that’s been used for 30 years.