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Does one simple rule underlie the climate? Biological systems are complex and chaotic. Denying this so that "any old model will do" is pseudoscience; and we sh

Does one simple rule underlie the climate? Biological systems are complex and chaotic. Denying this so that "any old model will do" is pseudoscience; and we should start calling this out.

zasdffaa 4y ago
> Biological systems are ... chaotic Are they? Seems they are extraordinarily stable. Tortoises can last two centuries, that's not the signature of chaos. What do you mean by that word?
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  A good definition of chaos that certainly applies to biological systems: Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future. Lorenz
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    A dead tortoise is 100% going to be dead tomorrow. A tortoise alive now is 99.995% likely to be alive tomorrow, if external threats are removed. Pretty sure that is not the behaviour of chaos under your definition.
    - hprotagonist 4y ago
      “is this neuron going to spike and if it does can we say why” is, though. “if external threats are removed” is an attempt to linearize, and therefore remove chaotic behavior. Sometimes you can pull this off and have a reasonable model at the end; sometimes you cannot. This tells you more about your model than it does about the system you’re studying.
      - zasdffaa 4y ago
        Name me a stable system that does not become destroyed when an overwhelming amount of energy is applied to it. Is a tortoise with a stick of dynamite attached on a random timer chaotic or not? Seems yes. So what are the limits that define chaos? By that you could say all is chaotic. We lack a suitable definition here.
        hprotagonist 4y ago
        "if i operate a linearized model outside of its linear range, i don't have the control systems tools I wish i did." Sure. So what?
    - nisegami 4y ago
      A triple pendulum at rest now will be at rest 1s from now. A triple pendulum moving now will likely be moving 1s from now. That doesn't mean that the triple pendulum isn't a chaotic system. It just shows the chaotic nature of the system doesn't manifest at the level of detail you're considering.
  - spiderfarmer 4y ago
    So things that happen based on a predictable curve are chaotic as well?
- Infinint 4y ago
  Observing choas, one of the biggest hallmarks is its extreme stability. These systems always evade explanation and predictability at the smallest scales and build wild persistent structure at the largest. Chemical reactions are messy, but this one has been going for 4 billion years. We struggle to explain how even as high a scale as atoms can create the entire planet we see, let alone quantum fields, but understanding what it looks like just needed a few good thoughts about evolution. Life is the pinnacle of choas.
ramraj07 4y ago
Denying a hypothesis without any proof against it is actual pseudoscience, which is what you’re implying. Biological systems are complex and chaotic, but a single mechanism exists to replicate dna or make protein so what exactly are you supposing here?
- mjburgess 4y ago
  Err, I dont think a single mechanism exists either to make DNA or proteins... so I'm not sure where that comes from. However in the case of "learning", we're talking about the macro and micro physical structure of the brain encoding vast amounts of sensory-motor models of its environment, etc. We're talking about the brain-body-environment as the site of mood, emotion, desire, belief, imagination, etc. We're talking about that thing when given vallium (a simple chemical effect) has extremely complex net effects on mood, desire, belief, etc. Inasmuch as CO2 has likewise, extremely complex effects. The statement that the relevant actions of the brain-body system here are complex is scientifically uncontroversial. Yet, pseudoscience continues -- because some researchers ignore (or are ignorant) of the methodological implications.
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    I have no idea what you’re talking about. Sounds like Michio Kaku on drugs.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      They're saying "none of those are simple" and also tossing in some examples of how much the brain does and how easily it's disrupted. I don't really know why you're having such a hard time of it.
sumy23 4y ago
What does climate have to do with the brain? How are you drawing an inference between how the climate works and how the brain works? I agree with others that you’re propagating pseudoscience. Even if you’re right, and there isn’t a simple rule that explains human learning, you’re right for the wrong reason.
- mjburgess 4y ago
  The climate and the brain are both common examples of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system It's amazing the confidence people have
  - sumy23 4y ago
    But the brain isn't a complex system because the climate is a complex system. There is no relation between the two systems, other than that the two are emergent phenomena on Earth. Proof that the climate is a complex system doesn't automatically prove the brain is a complex system. Apriori, you can't draw any logical conclusions about the brain from the climate. You're right about one thing: It's amazing the confidence people have
    - mjburgess 4y ago
      So where do you think i made that argument? The climate was an analogy to illustrate the point
      - sumy23 4y ago
        The article is about whether or not human learning is powered by a simple, understandable process. Your response is: “No, human learning is like the climate, it’s complex.” I’m just pointing out what a nonsensical statement that is. The article offers evidence about how synapses work. What is your analogy, exactly? Usually an analogy has some points of comparison that help illustrate a topic. E.g. chess is like war. There are two sides in both war and chess, both war and chess require anticipating your opponents moves etc. Therefore, you can make the argument that you can understand something about war through understanding chess. I’m really failing to see how the climate helps us understand the brain. Other than your claim that both are beyond comprehension.

Does one simple rule underlie the climate? Biological systems are complex and chaotic. Denying this so that "any old model will do" is pseudoscience; and we should start calling this out.

zasdffaa 4y ago

> Biological systems are ... chaotic Are they? Seems they are extraordinarily stable. Tortoises can last two centuries, that's not the signature of chaos. What do you mean by that word?

hprotagonist 4y ago
A good definition of chaos that certainly applies to biological systems: Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future. Lorenz
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  A dead tortoise is 100% going to be dead tomorrow. A tortoise alive now is 99.995% likely to be alive tomorrow, if external threats are removed. Pretty sure that is not the behaviour of chaos under your definition.
  - hprotagonist 4y ago
    “is this neuron going to spike and if it does can we say why” is, though. “if external threats are removed” is an attempt to linearize, and therefore remove chaotic behavior. Sometimes you can pull this off and have a reasonable model at the end; sometimes you cannot. This tells you more about your model than it does about the system you’re studying.
    - zasdffaa 4y ago
      Name me a stable system that does not become destroyed when an overwhelming amount of energy is applied to it. Is a tortoise with a stick of dynamite attached on a random timer chaotic or not? Seems yes. So what are the limits that define chaos? By that you could say all is chaotic. We lack a suitable definition here.
      - hprotagonist 4y ago
        "if i operate a linearized model outside of its linear range, i don't have the control systems tools I wish i did." Sure. So what?
  - nisegami 4y ago
    A triple pendulum at rest now will be at rest 1s from now. A triple pendulum moving now will likely be moving 1s from now. That doesn't mean that the triple pendulum isn't a chaotic system. It just shows the chaotic nature of the system doesn't manifest at the level of detail you're considering.
- spiderfarmer 4y ago
  So things that happen based on a predictable curve are chaotic as well?
Infinint 4y ago
Observing choas, one of the biggest hallmarks is its extreme stability. These systems always evade explanation and predictability at the smallest scales and build wild persistent structure at the largest. Chemical reactions are messy, but this one has been going for 4 billion years. We struggle to explain how even as high a scale as atoms can create the entire planet we see, let alone quantum fields, but understanding what it looks like just needed a few good thoughts about evolution. Life is the pinnacle of choas.

ramraj07 4y ago

Denying a hypothesis without any proof against it is actual pseudoscience, which is what you’re implying. Biological systems are complex and chaotic, but a single mechanism exists to replicate dna or make protein so what exactly are you supposing here?

mjburgess 4y ago
Err, I dont think a single mechanism exists either to make DNA or proteins... so I'm not sure where that comes from. However in the case of "learning", we're talking about the macro and micro physical structure of the brain encoding vast amounts of sensory-motor models of its environment, etc. We're talking about the brain-body-environment as the site of mood, emotion, desire, belief, imagination, etc. We're talking about that thing when given vallium (a simple chemical effect) has extremely complex net effects on mood, desire, belief, etc. Inasmuch as CO2 has likewise, extremely complex effects. The statement that the relevant actions of the brain-body system here are complex is scientifically uncontroversial. Yet, pseudoscience continues -- because some researchers ignore (or are ignorant) of the methodological implications.
- ramraj07 4y ago
  I have no idea what you’re talking about. Sounds like Michio Kaku on drugs.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    They're saying "none of those are simple" and also tossing in some examples of how much the brain does and how easily it's disrupted. I don't really know why you're having such a hard time of it.

sumy23 4y ago

What does climate have to do with the brain? How are you drawing an inference between how the climate works and how the brain works? I agree with others that you’re propagating pseudoscience. Even if you’re right, and there isn’t a simple rule that explains human learning, you’re right for the wrong reason.

mjburgess 4y ago
The climate and the brain are both common examples of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system It's amazing the confidence people have
- sumy23 4y ago
  But the brain isn't a complex system because the climate is a complex system. There is no relation between the two systems, other than that the two are emergent phenomena on Earth. Proof that the climate is a complex system doesn't automatically prove the brain is a complex system. Apriori, you can't draw any logical conclusions about the brain from the climate. You're right about one thing: It's amazing the confidence people have
  - mjburgess 4y ago
    So where do you think i made that argument? The climate was an analogy to illustrate the point
    - sumy23 4y ago
      The article is about whether or not human learning is powered by a simple, understandable process. Your response is: “No, human learning is like the climate, it’s complex.” I’m just pointing out what a nonsensical statement that is. The article offers evidence about how synapses work. What is your analogy, exactly? Usually an analogy has some points of comparison that help illustrate a topic. E.g. chess is like war. There are two sides in both war and chess, both war and chess require anticipating your opponents moves etc. Therefore, you can make the argument that you can understand something about war through understanding chess. I’m really failing to see how the climate helps us understand the brain. Other than your claim that both are beyond comprehension.