5 ms·

Conversations allow smooth talkers to run a snow job on you. Having a work sample test provides a best-in-class hiring filter.

ShamelessC 4y ago
Only if you yourself don't know what you're talking about...
oaiey 4y ago
If the hiring manager cannot distinguish a smooth talker for a senior role position, maybe the hiring manager is the problem. There is nothing a work sample can provide what a conversation cannot show for a senior role.
- TameAntelope 4y ago
  Okay so now we're hiring a hiring manager and a developer, great. ...or maybe people in this thread just don't like having to prove they know things in an industry where a lot of people don't know things.
  - ShamelessC 4y ago
    More like we're tired of having to "prove we know something" to people who have no clue what they're talking about (most recruiters). Further, there are probably lots of software engineers that have _never touched_ your framework of choice and will be able to learn and become proficient with it in a manner of weeks.
    - TameAntelope 4y ago
      Having just gone through this with yet another developer who couldn't learn the framework in a couple of weeks, I am sick and tired of hiring people I have to coddle for months on end, only to end up having them quit because I didn't screen them correctly.
      - ShamelessC 4y ago
        There are definitely a lot of bad candidates out there these days but I still find that I'm able to filter this by ignoring overly-hyped resumes and giving them a chance to talk about something that excites them as an engineer. If the answer is "learning new tech, becoming a better programmer, getting better at continuous integration", or something similarly encouraging, they're probably good to go in a few weeks to a couple of months. particular if they talk specifics and aren't talking out of their ass. If you can't discern that yourself then I don't know what to tell you ha. I'm aware that lying/cheating during interviews can be really common in enterprise. One approach that might work there is to try to meet candidates out at meetups in the area - this acts as a sort of self-filter and you can chat in person before the interview even gets extended.
  - pnathan 4y ago
    > having to prove they know things in an industry where a lot of people don't know things. The number of people I have interviewed who have been unable to code fibonacci or fizzbuzz, even the number of people with "senior" in their resume, is genuinely remarkable. I can appreciate the tiresome nature of interviews, but someone having to demonstrate that are not simply fakers is, simply, critical to the hiring process. For people who are "hired by network", that is a different story. But if someone is coming in through the front gate, I will insist on having some kind of technical scrutiny, in technical and documented form, rather than simple conversations. Work sample tests, according to the literature HN member `tokenadult` has gathered, provide the best predictor of future work. My druthers today is for senior engineers to provide two work samples: code and design. Neither _particularly_ long or _particularly_ challenging, in a time frame that is not onerous. If the engineer has a portfolio with recent work, that is, IMO, a suitable replacement for code. Again, the point is to elicit fakery and have a demonstration of being able to do good work.
    - Viliam1234 4y ago
      > The number of people I have interviewed who have been unable to code fibonacci or fizzbuzz, even the number of people with "senior" in their resume, is genuinely remarkable. I believe you; I have met some. Luckily, neither fibonacci nor fizzbuzz requires 4 hours to code.
- tiborsaas 4y ago
  I've interviewed multiple people who were really great at talking about tech and work experience, projects, but when we got to the (not so hard) coding challenge they flopped.
jen20 4y ago
Perhaps on you. I’ve never encountered someone where a 5 minute technical discussion told me less than a full day of interview would.
mrelectric 4y ago
I'm a "smooth talker" but boy, do I fuck you over on practical project with 3 seniors sitting next to me.
scarface74 4y ago
I’ve interviewed people for the type of role that the submitter is looking for. I can guarantee you that I could see through a “smooth talker”. In fact, I can smell someone who just memorized stuff from ACloudGuru a mile away.
peterkelly 4y ago
Not if you ask the right questions
- crummy 4y ago
  What kind of questions would you ask?
d13 4y ago
Interview their referees and look at work they’ve done.
krageon 4y ago
If you are not capable of dealing with charisma, you shouldn't be doing the interviews at all.

ShamelessC 4y ago

Only if you yourself don't know what you're talking about...

oaiey 4y ago

If the hiring manager cannot distinguish a smooth talker for a senior role position, maybe the hiring manager is the problem. There is nothing a work sample can provide what a conversation cannot show for a senior role.

TameAntelope 4y ago
Okay so now we're hiring a hiring manager and a developer, great. ...or maybe people in this thread just don't like having to prove they know things in an industry where a lot of people don't know things.
- ShamelessC 4y ago
  More like we're tired of having to "prove we know something" to people who have no clue what they're talking about (most recruiters). Further, there are probably lots of software engineers that have _never touched_ your framework of choice and will be able to learn and become proficient with it in a manner of weeks.
  - TameAntelope 4y ago
    Having just gone through this with yet another developer who couldn't learn the framework in a couple of weeks, I am sick and tired of hiring people I have to coddle for months on end, only to end up having them quit because I didn't screen them correctly.
    - ShamelessC 4y ago
      There are definitely a lot of bad candidates out there these days but I still find that I'm able to filter this by ignoring overly-hyped resumes and giving them a chance to talk about something that excites them as an engineer. If the answer is "learning new tech, becoming a better programmer, getting better at continuous integration", or something similarly encouraging, they're probably good to go in a few weeks to a couple of months. particular if they talk specifics and aren't talking out of their ass. If you can't discern that yourself then I don't know what to tell you ha. I'm aware that lying/cheating during interviews can be really common in enterprise. One approach that might work there is to try to meet candidates out at meetups in the area - this acts as a sort of self-filter and you can chat in person before the interview even gets extended.
- pnathan 4y ago
  > having to prove they know things in an industry where a lot of people don't know things. The number of people I have interviewed who have been unable to code fibonacci or fizzbuzz, even the number of people with "senior" in their resume, is genuinely remarkable. I can appreciate the tiresome nature of interviews, but someone having to demonstrate that are not simply fakers is, simply, critical to the hiring process. For people who are "hired by network", that is a different story. But if someone is coming in through the front gate, I will insist on having some kind of technical scrutiny, in technical and documented form, rather than simple conversations. Work sample tests, according to the literature HN member `tokenadult` has gathered, provide the best predictor of future work. My druthers today is for senior engineers to provide two work samples: code and design. Neither _particularly_ long or _particularly_ challenging, in a time frame that is not onerous. If the engineer has a portfolio with recent work, that is, IMO, a suitable replacement for code. Again, the point is to elicit fakery and have a demonstration of being able to do good work.
  - Viliam1234 4y ago
    > The number of people I have interviewed who have been unable to code fibonacci or fizzbuzz, even the number of people with "senior" in their resume, is genuinely remarkable. I believe you; I have met some. Luckily, neither fibonacci nor fizzbuzz requires 4 hours to code.
tiborsaas 4y ago
I've interviewed multiple people who were really great at talking about tech and work experience, projects, but when we got to the (not so hard) coding challenge they flopped.

jen20 4y ago

Perhaps on you. I’ve never encountered someone where a 5 minute technical discussion told me less than a full day of interview would.

mrelectric 4y ago

I'm a "smooth talker" but boy, do I fuck you over on practical project with 3 seniors sitting next to me.

scarface74 4y ago

I’ve interviewed people for the type of role that the submitter is looking for. I can guarantee you that I could see through a “smooth talker”. In fact, I can smell someone who just memorized stuff from ACloudGuru a mile away.

peterkelly 4y ago

Not if you ask the right questions

crummy 4y ago
What kind of questions would you ask?

d13 4y ago

Interview their referees and look at work they’ve done.

krageon 4y ago

If you are not capable of dealing with charisma, you shouldn't be doing the interviews at all.