10 ms·

> Apple should not have this type of power. wait a minute, that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store. they've could've just as easily provided a

by kmlx 4y ago

> Apple should not have this type of power. wait a minute, that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store. they've could've just as easily provided a web app and easily instructed their users to have a link on the ios home screen. but they wanted to be on the App Store, so of course they had to follow Apple's rules.

majani 4y ago
And for Tumblr (and most apps out there), they took on on all this headache just for some push notifications and fancy animations. They clearly didn't do their cost-benefit analysis when deciding to make their app
christkv 4y ago
They could have just enforced a age limit on the app instead and let the platform decide if they were ok with 18+ or not
- Mindwipe 4y ago
  No, they couldn't. Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. The Apple app review team is capricious and does not follow their own published guidelines, and that is not news. This was also an issue with Discord - Discord still doesn't (by Apple didact) permit some servers with adult content in the iOS app, because Apple said there was no way to do so and remain in the store.
  - Jcowell 4y ago
    What servers ? I’ve seen a couple with full on adult content.
    - Macha 4y ago
      Partnered servers at least. The ffxiv subreddit server had to remove porn after discord partnership. I think nominally the rules are the same for all public servers, but much like early Reddit, or indeed like Tumblr, Discord does not have the moderation capability to actually enforce that.
    - Mindwipe 4y ago
      https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-Accessing-an-Age-Restricted-Server-FAQ https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-... "Additionally, a subset of age-restricted servers that are specifically focused on explicit pornographic content will be blocked entirely on iOS. "
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    > Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. Given that the problem with Tumblr was the accessibility of CSAM, I think Apple are probably on the right side here saying "just marking it 18+ is not ok" since, y'know, the issue wasn't that "CSAM is available to minors" but "CSAM is available to anyone".
    - robonerd 4y ago
      Is there any reason to believe reddit didn't/doesn't have this same exact problem? I think Tumblr was singled out and made an example of because they had a narrower user demographic spread, particularly popular with young women. In cynical business logic, this made them a safer target for bullying than a site with broader appeal like reddit, facebook or twitter.
robin_reala 4y ago
Tumblr’s management actively hated their web team: https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816 https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816
- justinclift 4y ago
  That's not really anyone's fault but Tumblr though. They could have fixed whatever issues they had with the website/team/etc.
- melior 4y ago
  Their web ui was a magnitude slower than their app, mostly due to inefficiently loading new content. On a blog with heavy video, you could manage to freeze your desktop browser within minutes.
alexb_ 4y ago
The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. Sure they could have "provided a web app" that gave a really really shitty experience to everyone compared to an actual app, but that's not an actual alternative and still loses out on a ton of users. Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device, and these are the consequences.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  > The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. Exactly right. It's amazing to me that with these global platforms we are seeing exactly why the legal system evolved the way it did, and why we have things like appeals, precendents, the judges, and levels of courts. Getting rules and regulations right is not easy. Relying on these platforms to do it is basically reinventing the wheel, except they don't seem to be reinventing it correctly. They are creating kafkaesque impossible to communicate with bureaucracies. And the funny thing is, due to their focus on profits, they don't really care if 5-10% of the population find it impossible to use their platforms of get banned, because it just doesn't matter to their bottom line if courts and appeals are more expensive to run than just banning them. And then we basically see why equality before the law evolved, and why its to fucking important.
- kmlx 4y ago
  > as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS there is no “evidence”. it’s a 17+ app with sexual accounts actively banned all of the time which you can’t even access if you’re not logged in, NSFW is disabled by default etc etc > There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. actually there’s a huge reason: they built it, they own it. > Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device the device is meaningless, it’s all about the software. and you don’t own that. so you can’t impose your own rules.
  - 4y ago
ig-88ms 4y ago
Building mobile web apps back in the day was much harder than today.
- threeseed 4y ago
  I built a number of them. It was significantly easier. The Javascript ecosystem today is far more diverse, complex and multi-faceted than in the past. It's hard to put together a simple to develop stack that will be supported and maintainable in the future.
lkxijlewlf 4y ago
I think you're making the case for Apple being too powerful.
Aldo_MX 4y ago
> that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store Yeah, because the iOS ecosystem is well known for allowing competition, especially competing stores. Many of the issues that Apple create wouldn't exist if competing stores were allowed to exist.
- ezfe 4y ago
  What about Tumblr requires an app to enjoy?
  - Aldo_MX 4y ago
    I don't know, let me ask the anti-Electron gang their thoughts about less battery life just by running a browser environment instead of a native app.
    - uncomputation 4y ago
      This doesn’t make sense. You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. If you used Electron for desktop, you would generate an iOS bundle for the App Store but OP is suggesting just a web app in the vein of HN, just accessed via the browser. The only thing you would use Electron for is desktop but, also like HN, nobody accesses tumblr via a desktop app to begin with. They use a browser.
      - woojoo666 4y ago
        From the article > Apple’s restrictions on third-party browsers, and the limitations it puts on Safari/WebKit (its own browser tools) have hobbled “web apps,” Though I'm sure you can also ask many product managers how well native apps on iOS perform due to web apps (many companies have data on both). For whatever reason, users prefer native apps
      - Aldo_MX 4y ago
        > You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. You're missing the forest for the trees. The issue is not building an app specifically with Electron, but building an app which requires a browser. The browser is expensive in terms of resource usage, which results in less battery life. Using a browser is OK for an app intended for a light usage session (like booking a flight). But not OK for an app which is intended for heavy usage sessions (like browsing pictures in an infinite timeline). There's a reason Slack (which already has a reputation of impacting your battery life) decided to create a native app for mobile instead of using an Electron-like framework like Capacitor[1]. [1]: https://capacitorjs.com/ https://capacitorjs.com/
Tostino 4y ago
Using the hobbled webapp features that Apple hardly allows? That's your solution?
vorpalhex 4y ago
1. Safari did not support PWAs at this time. Other browsers did. 2. Safari had and still has some pretty gnarly bugs that require special workarounds. 3. You could not put a link to a website on the homescreen of iOS
- ec109685 4y ago
  Apple has had PWA’s for years. Tumblr is perfectly fine on the web, but they want people to download the app so they can use push notifications to juice engagement.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    That's a lie. As of Aug 2021, PWA support basically didn't exist except for some parts of the manifest file. No background tasks, none of the major APIs were implemented, and you got nothing but an app tile on your homescreen.. even navigating back and forth from the PWA to another app caused the PWA to lose state. Data storage was basically a nightmare. There are STILL basic fundamental things missing. When the tumblr saga was going on, I still don't think you could even read PWA manifests or add them to your homescreen!
    - ec109685 4y ago
      Here's the definitive list: https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ None of those things are necessary to create a very full featured Tumblr web application. E.g. twitter works quite well on mobile web. Tumblr wants people to download the app for engagement purposes.

by kmlx 4y ago

majani 4y ago

And for Tumblr (and most apps out there), they took on on all this headache just for some push notifications and fancy animations. They clearly didn't do their cost-benefit analysis when deciding to make their app

christkv 4y ago

They could have just enforced a age limit on the app instead and let the platform decide if they were ok with 18+ or not

Mindwipe 4y ago
No, they couldn't. Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. The Apple app review team is capricious and does not follow their own published guidelines, and that is not news. This was also an issue with Discord - Discord still doesn't (by Apple didact) permit some servers with adult content in the iOS app, because Apple said there was no way to do so and remain in the store.
- Jcowell 4y ago
  What servers ? I’ve seen a couple with full on adult content.
  - Macha 4y ago
    Partnered servers at least. The ffxiv subreddit server had to remove porn after discord partnership. I think nominally the rules are the same for all public servers, but much like early Reddit, or indeed like Tumblr, Discord does not have the moderation capability to actually enforce that.
  - Mindwipe 4y ago
    https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-Accessing-an-Age-Restricted-Server-FAQ https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-... "Additionally, a subset of age-restricted servers that are specifically focused on explicit pornographic content will be blocked entirely on iOS. "
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  > Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. Given that the problem with Tumblr was the accessibility of CSAM, I think Apple are probably on the right side here saying "just marking it 18+ is not ok" since, y'know, the issue wasn't that "CSAM is available to minors" but "CSAM is available to anyone".
  - robonerd 4y ago
    Is there any reason to believe reddit didn't/doesn't have this same exact problem? I think Tumblr was singled out and made an example of because they had a narrower user demographic spread, particularly popular with young women. In cynical business logic, this made them a safer target for bullying than a site with broader appeal like reddit, facebook or twitter.

robin_reala 4y ago

Tumblr’s management actively hated their web team: https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816 https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816

justinclift 4y ago
That's not really anyone's fault but Tumblr though. They could have fixed whatever issues they had with the website/team/etc.
melior 4y ago
Their web ui was a magnitude slower than their app, mostly due to inefficiently loading new content. On a blog with heavy video, you could manage to freeze your desktop browser within minutes.

alexb_ 4y ago

The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. Sure they could have "provided a web app" that gave a really really shitty experience to everyone compared to an actual app, but that's not an actual alternative and still loses out on a ton of users. Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device, and these are the consequences.

cloutchaser 4y ago
> The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. Exactly right. It's amazing to me that with these global platforms we are seeing exactly why the legal system evolved the way it did, and why we have things like appeals, precendents, the judges, and levels of courts. Getting rules and regulations right is not easy. Relying on these platforms to do it is basically reinventing the wheel, except they don't seem to be reinventing it correctly. They are creating kafkaesque impossible to communicate with bureaucracies. And the funny thing is, due to their focus on profits, they don't really care if 5-10% of the population find it impossible to use their platforms of get banned, because it just doesn't matter to their bottom line if courts and appeals are more expensive to run than just banning them. And then we basically see why equality before the law evolved, and why its to fucking important.
kmlx 4y ago
> as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS there is no “evidence”. it’s a 17+ app with sexual accounts actively banned all of the time which you can’t even access if you’re not logged in, NSFW is disabled by default etc etc > There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. actually there’s a huge reason: they built it, they own it. > Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device the device is meaningless, it’s all about the software. and you don’t own that. so you can’t impose your own rules.
- 4y ago

ig-88ms 4y ago

Building mobile web apps back in the day was much harder than today.

threeseed 4y ago
I built a number of them. It was significantly easier. The Javascript ecosystem today is far more diverse, complex and multi-faceted than in the past. It's hard to put together a simple to develop stack that will be supported and maintainable in the future.

lkxijlewlf 4y ago

I think you're making the case for Apple being too powerful.

Aldo_MX 4y ago

> that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store Yeah, because the iOS ecosystem is well known for allowing competition, especially competing stores. Many of the issues that Apple create wouldn't exist if competing stores were allowed to exist.

ezfe 4y ago
What about Tumblr requires an app to enjoy?
- Aldo_MX 4y ago
  I don't know, let me ask the anti-Electron gang their thoughts about less battery life just by running a browser environment instead of a native app.
  - uncomputation 4y ago
    This doesn’t make sense. You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. If you used Electron for desktop, you would generate an iOS bundle for the App Store but OP is suggesting just a web app in the vein of HN, just accessed via the browser. The only thing you would use Electron for is desktop but, also like HN, nobody accesses tumblr via a desktop app to begin with. They use a browser.
    - woojoo666 4y ago
      From the article > Apple’s restrictions on third-party browsers, and the limitations it puts on Safari/WebKit (its own browser tools) have hobbled “web apps,” Though I'm sure you can also ask many product managers how well native apps on iOS perform due to web apps (many companies have data on both). For whatever reason, users prefer native apps
    - Aldo_MX 4y ago
      > You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. You're missing the forest for the trees. The issue is not building an app specifically with Electron, but building an app which requires a browser. The browser is expensive in terms of resource usage, which results in less battery life. Using a browser is OK for an app intended for a light usage session (like booking a flight). But not OK for an app which is intended for heavy usage sessions (like browsing pictures in an infinite timeline). There's a reason Slack (which already has a reputation of impacting your battery life) decided to create a native app for mobile instead of using an Electron-like framework like Capacitor[1]. [1]: https://capacitorjs.com/ https://capacitorjs.com/

Tostino 4y ago

Using the hobbled webapp features that Apple hardly allows? That's your solution?

vorpalhex 4y ago

1. Safari did not support PWAs at this time. Other browsers did. 2. Safari had and still has some pretty gnarly bugs that require special workarounds. 3. You could not put a link to a website on the homescreen of iOS

ec109685 4y ago
Apple has had PWA’s for years. Tumblr is perfectly fine on the web, but they want people to download the app so they can use push notifications to juice engagement.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  That's a lie. As of Aug 2021, PWA support basically didn't exist except for some parts of the manifest file. No background tasks, none of the major APIs were implemented, and you got nothing but an app tile on your homescreen.. even navigating back and forth from the PWA to another app caused the PWA to lose state. Data storage was basically a nightmare. There are STILL basic fundamental things missing. When the tumblr saga was going on, I still don't think you could even read PWA manifests or add them to your homescreen!
  - ec109685 4y ago
    Here's the definitive list: https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ None of those things are necessary to create a very full featured Tumblr web application. E.g. twitter works quite well on mobile web. Tumblr wants people to download the app for engagement purposes.