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It's worth mentioning the case of tumblr - a giant social media company that was literally worth hundreds of millions of dollars. People remember the whole "wow

by alexb_ 4y ago

It's worth mentioning the case of tumblr - a giant social media company that was literally worth hundreds of millions of dollars. People remember the whole "wow, tumblr was so stupid for banning porn" but forget that the reason they did so was because Apple threatened to remove all of their users from tumblr if they didn't. Apple gave tumblr unreasonable "safety standards" that almost single-handedly killed a gigantic site for the vast majority of users. Apple should not have this type of power. Maybe they used it for good with Facebook, but I wouldn't count on it always being the case. Apple can kill entire social media platforms if they want to. IMO, it's a matter of time before they start charging an "adult tax" (that just so happens to be barely below the profits a company makes from adult content via Apple users). Maybe the only thing preventing them from doing so is regulatory pressure.

kmlx 4y ago
> Apple should not have this type of power. wait a minute, that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store. they've could've just as easily provided a web app and easily instructed their users to have a link on the ios home screen. but they wanted to be on the App Store, so of course they had to follow Apple's rules.
- majani 4y ago
  And for Tumblr (and most apps out there), they took on on all this headache just for some push notifications and fancy animations. They clearly didn't do their cost-benefit analysis when deciding to make their app
- christkv 4y ago
  They could have just enforced a age limit on the app instead and let the platform decide if they were ok with 18+ or not
  - Mindwipe 4y ago
    No, they couldn't. Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. The Apple app review team is capricious and does not follow their own published guidelines, and that is not news. This was also an issue with Discord - Discord still doesn't (by Apple didact) permit some servers with adult content in the iOS app, because Apple said there was no way to do so and remain in the store.
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      What servers ? I’ve seen a couple with full on adult content.
      - Macha 4y ago
        Partnered servers at least. The ffxiv subreddit server had to remove porn after discord partnership. I think nominally the rules are the same for all public servers, but much like early Reddit, or indeed like Tumblr, Discord does not have the moderation capability to actually enforce that.
      - Mindwipe 4y ago
        https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-Accessing-an-Age-Restricted-Server-FAQ https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-... "Additionally, a subset of age-restricted servers that are specifically focused on explicit pornographic content will be blocked entirely on iOS. "
    - zimpenfish 4y ago
      > Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. Given that the problem with Tumblr was the accessibility of CSAM, I think Apple are probably on the right side here saying "just marking it 18+ is not ok" since, y'know, the issue wasn't that "CSAM is available to minors" but "CSAM is available to anyone".
      - robonerd 4y ago
        Is there any reason to believe reddit didn't/doesn't have this same exact problem? I think Tumblr was singled out and made an example of because they had a narrower user demographic spread, particularly popular with young women. In cynical business logic, this made them a safer target for bullying than a site with broader appeal like reddit, facebook or twitter.
- robin_reala 4y ago
  Tumblr’s management actively hated their web team: https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816 https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816
  - justinclift 4y ago
    That's not really anyone's fault but Tumblr though. They could have fixed whatever issues they had with the website/team/etc.
  - melior 4y ago
    Their web ui was a magnitude slower than their app, mostly due to inefficiently loading new content. On a blog with heavy video, you could manage to freeze your desktop browser within minutes.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. Sure they could have "provided a web app" that gave a really really shitty experience to everyone compared to an actual app, but that's not an actual alternative and still loses out on a ton of users. Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device, and these are the consequences.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    > The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. Exactly right. It's amazing to me that with these global platforms we are seeing exactly why the legal system evolved the way it did, and why we have things like appeals, precendents, the judges, and levels of courts. Getting rules and regulations right is not easy. Relying on these platforms to do it is basically reinventing the wheel, except they don't seem to be reinventing it correctly. They are creating kafkaesque impossible to communicate with bureaucracies. And the funny thing is, due to their focus on profits, they don't really care if 5-10% of the population find it impossible to use their platforms of get banned, because it just doesn't matter to their bottom line if courts and appeals are more expensive to run than just banning them. And then we basically see why equality before the law evolved, and why its to fucking important.
  - kmlx 4y ago
    > as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS there is no “evidence”. it’s a 17+ app with sexual accounts actively banned all of the time which you can’t even access if you’re not logged in, NSFW is disabled by default etc etc > There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. actually there’s a huge reason: they built it, they own it. > Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device the device is meaningless, it’s all about the software. and you don’t own that. so you can’t impose your own rules.
    - 4y ago
- ig-88ms 4y ago
  Building mobile web apps back in the day was much harder than today.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    I built a number of them. It was significantly easier. The Javascript ecosystem today is far more diverse, complex and multi-faceted than in the past. It's hard to put together a simple to develop stack that will be supported and maintainable in the future.
- lkxijlewlf 4y ago
  I think you're making the case for Apple being too powerful.
- Aldo_MX 4y ago
  > that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store Yeah, because the iOS ecosystem is well known for allowing competition, especially competing stores. Many of the issues that Apple create wouldn't exist if competing stores were allowed to exist.
  - ezfe 4y ago
    What about Tumblr requires an app to enjoy?
    - Aldo_MX 4y ago
      I don't know, let me ask the anti-Electron gang their thoughts about less battery life just by running a browser environment instead of a native app.
      - uncomputation 4y ago
        This doesn’t make sense. You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. If you used Electron for desktop, you would generate an iOS bundle for the App Store but OP is suggesting just a web app in the vein of HN, just accessed via the browser. The only thing you would use Electron for is desktop but, also like HN, nobody accesses tumblr via a desktop app to begin with. They use a browser.
        woojoo666 4y ago
        From the article > Apple’s restrictions on third-party browsers, and the limitations it puts on Safari/WebKit (its own browser tools) have hobbled “web apps,” Though I'm sure you can also ask many product managers how well native apps on iOS perform due to web apps (many companies have data on both). For whatever reason, users prefer native apps
        Aldo_MX 4y ago
        > You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. You're missing the forest for the trees. The issue is not building an app specifically with Electron, but building an app which requires a browser. The browser is expensive in terms of resource usage, which results in less battery life. Using a browser is OK for an app intended for a light usage session (like booking a flight). But not OK for an app which is intended for heavy usage sessions (like browsing pictures in an infinite timeline). There's a reason Slack (which already has a reputation of impacting your battery life) decided to create a native app for mobile instead of using an Electron-like framework like Capacitor[1]. [1]: https://capacitorjs.com/ https://capacitorjs.com/
- Tostino 4y ago
  Using the hobbled webapp features that Apple hardly allows? That's your solution?
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  1. Safari did not support PWAs at this time. Other browsers did. 2. Safari had and still has some pretty gnarly bugs that require special workarounds. 3. You could not put a link to a website on the homescreen of iOS
  - ec109685 4y ago
    Apple has had PWA’s for years. Tumblr is perfectly fine on the web, but they want people to download the app so they can use push notifications to juice engagement.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      That's a lie. As of Aug 2021, PWA support basically didn't exist except for some parts of the manifest file. No background tasks, none of the major APIs were implemented, and you got nothing but an app tile on your homescreen.. even navigating back and forth from the PWA to another app caused the PWA to lose state. Data storage was basically a nightmare. There are STILL basic fundamental things missing. When the tumblr saga was going on, I still don't think you could even read PWA manifests or add them to your homescreen!
      - ec109685 4y ago
        Here's the definitive list: https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ None of those things are necessary to create a very full featured Tumblr web application. E.g. twitter works quite well on mobile web. Tumblr wants people to download the app for engagement purposes.
xwdv 4y ago
Companies can always find ways to screw another company over, this is not unique to Apple. Bad example.
- 2malaq 4y ago
  It's not a bad example when it's literally relevant to the article.
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    But is it? I don't think iphone market shares are large enough to make a company like tumblr die.
    - alexb_ 4y ago
      Yes they are. iPhones make up over half of all smartphones in America.
      - prmoustache 4y ago
        Globally it is less than 20%.
        alexb_ 4y ago
        Do you want to be the person who has to explain why your userbase just dropped 20% because you didn't want to ban porn? If Apple says you want to ban something, it's getting banned. "Globally" is also not a good metric here, since the vast majority of tumblr users came from english speaking countries.
        xwdv 4y ago
        You’re right. Better to just ban porn and lose 100% of the user base.
        simonh 4y ago
nextstep 4y ago
How did Twitter avoid this same fate? Twitter has an iOS app (sort of their main interface nowadays) and they have tons of adult content. Is Twitter powerful enough to stand up to Apple and Tumblr was not?
- lrae 4y ago
  NSFW content is disabled by default in the iOS app and you can only enable it via web iirc. No idea though if Tumblr had the same option back then.
  - Mindwipe 4y ago
    It did. Apple repeatedly said that wasn't sufficient.
    - steego 4y ago
      You’re missing something. Both Twitter and Reddit have apps which allow access to NSFW content.
      - Mindwipe 4y ago
        I'm not, Apple are just extremely inconsistent with the policy.
- Mindwipe 4y ago
  Because the App Store review team is capricious and contradictory. We've also seen third party Reddit app developers not allowed to feature content that the main Reddit app is despite toggles, and Discord not allowed to feature content that Twitter is. The policy is badly written and not even Apple's own reviewers understand it, and they overreact to complaints from religious groups.
- melior 4y ago
  Twitter had better resources to prevent NSFW mishaps from creeping into your feed. In 2017, Twitter had dedicated ML resources driving their recommendation engine + human moderators on fallback duty. You need to explicitly opt-in via web app before you can see NSFW using their app. In comparison, Tumblr struggled with NSFW content as they relied heavily on users to police content. Without opting-in, pornograhic posts regularly bled into standard content. With the demographics, CSAM content quickly started to do the same.
pikseladam 4y ago
what about reddit?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  It apparently went much deeper than just porn. Tumbler had a big pedo problem that they were struggling to deal with which is why Apple delisted them. So they decided that rather than try to filter legal from illegal porn, they would just ban it all.
  - Macha 4y ago
    There was a NY Times article about the problem Reddit had with r/jailbait, but Apple did not move against the Reddit app then. You can argue that they were wrong to move against Tumblr, or to not move against Reddit, but I don't think you can argue that the application of this rule is not variable.
    - shagie 4y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/us/opioid-reddit.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iaha3DKDmwaiPkORI-Y-kDMae95atc_3ijdRMNENPVnYs1O-dJlHh4nTRi08NzDkY4ZIi4xpMXuAG89hM7BUfVpqDO6KzS0c7k6zeeytVfbYWntXaHeg3ErJwp1sNAyIwHRrH8MwqnFE-B02cAvnqtyQ8AnGkpTIXWCrPLqCB5hOdqZbRi66gg-X-5RWDG7jsfLovtbM10UUQSaOSs5tWUs69pcO8cVOrL_LnMjccn5hrYTAg94PZbEdXZJ_PSwyc3f3CjYuuE&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/us/opioid-reddit.html?unl... > A group called “jailbait” — it contained provocative images of teenagers — led to a ban of “suggestive or sexual content featuring minors” in 2011. The company also shut down a group called “beatingwomen,” which glorified violence against women. Last year Reddit banned two so-called alt-right subreddits for repeatedly posting personal information that could lead to harassment. It took no action, though, against a subreddit organized around gun sales, which drew scrutiny after a 2014 Mother Jones article suggested that some arms dealers sought to exploit a federal background check loophole. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/19/reddit-and-the-struggle-to-detoxify-the-internet https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/19/reddit-and-the... also goes into it. > In September of 2011, Anderson Cooper discussed the subreddit on CNN. “It’s pretty amazing that a big corporation would have something like this, which reflects badly on it,” he said. Traffic to Jailbait quadrupled overnight. Twelve days later, after someone in the group apparently shared a nude photo of a fourteen-year-old girl, the community was banned. --- The Apple / Tumblr issue is much more recent (did Reddit even have an App Store app in 2011 - the version history doesn't go back that far).
mgiannopoulos 4y ago
So Tumblr died because it was dependent on porn traffic? If that is the case, they were already “dead” (or at least not worth hundreds of millions), and Apple’s rules had nothing to do with it.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  In order for tumblr to get into the good graces of Apple (which again, they absolutely should not have to do at all), they had to ban an absolutely absurd amount of content. Especially bad when a large part of your userbase is LGBT, and anything relating to that gets flagged as "adult" by automated systems.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    > and anything relating to that gets flagged as "adult" by automated systems Maybe Tumblr should have taken a page out of Apple's book and had reviewers.
    - marvin 4y ago
      Tumblr should have just dropped the share of their users that accessed their platform through the iOS app. But meh. They chose the other option.
- hyperbovine 4y ago
  Wait why? Porn sites are hugely profitable. Pornhub rakes in more monthly traffic than Google and FB combined.
  - mi_lk 4y ago
    > Pornhub rakes in more monthly traffic than Google and FB combined. traffic measured in visitors or bytes downloaded? any source?
    - lucideer 4y ago
parkingrift 4y ago
iOS has a 14% market share and Apple has absolutely no way to police content outside of the App Store. How did Apple ruin the Tumblr site? Why hasn’t pornhub met the same fate?
- ig-88ms 4y ago
  "If you want to watch porn, buy an Android" - Steve Jobs.
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    There’s porn on my phone, Mr. Jobs. Where? Which app?!? The app I believed is called “the internet.”
- robgibbons 4y ago
  57.43% in the US
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    Does Facebook only operate in the US, now?
- Salgat 4y ago
  iOS is at 50% market share of phones in the US.
- FinalBriefing 4y ago
  Or reddit. I don't see how reddit is any different from Tumblr in this case, and it has several apps. Has Apple loosened up their restrictions since Tumblr went under?
- concinds 4y ago
  > Apple has absolutely no way to police content outside of the App Store Wrong and naive. They have no direct way. Plenty of indirect ways. > How did Apple ruin the Tumblr site? Taleb's minority rule. Also read tumblr insiders' accounts of the porn ban that lay the blame much more on Apple than mainstream reporting does. > Why hasn’t pornhub met the same If Twitter/tumblr/reddit had no app, their mobile engagement would halve or worse. Not true for Pornhub.
simonh 4y ago
They took a hit for sure, but seem to be recovering. "Over the course of the pandemic, Gen Z flocked to Tumblr; as of early 2022, 61% of its new users, and nearly half of its active users, are under 24. Tumblr today has more daily active users than WordPress, its professional sibling, has per month, according to a spokesperson." https://qz.com/emails/quartz-company/2139456/tumblr-making-comeback/ https://qz.com/emails/quartz-company/2139456/tumblr-making-c...
ksec 4y ago
From Apple's perspective, If you want access to Apple's user. You have to play by their rules. Remember even if those users are Tumblr's reader or members, they are ultimately accessing it via iPhone, whether that is through Safari or Apps. And Apple dictate the rules. Since Apple is a force of Good. Apple are righteous. Their fellow evangelist will tell you everything else are by their definition are Evil. Such as Ads. And banning whatever it is, whether that is porn, news that does not adhere to their political views, or music that doesn't fits certain requirement. And they are fighting all these evil for you, an act of love.
- lancesells 4y ago
  I've never heard of Apple dictating anything through Safari on iOS. Are they blocking sites that they don't approve of?
  - oaiey 4y ago
    When I remember right, there is a blacklist but nothing serious on it.
- oaiey 4y ago
  > Apple's user This ownership wording is the wrong thinking when it comes to platforms.
  - munchenphile 4y ago
    Exactly. If I buy and drive a BMW, I’m a BMW driver. I’m not BMW’s user. What a scary way to phrase that relationship.
  - xdennis 4y ago
    But it is how these companies see people, which is what GP is talking about.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      More importantly, that's how these companies treat people and get away with it. So, however wrong and scary it is, it's also true.
rusk 4y ago
> unreasonable "safety standards" Are these the same safety standards that cause apple predictive text to refuse to recognise the cuss words I a grown adult use and have to go back and fix over and over again. Ducking stupid if you ask me.
- Shank 4y ago
  > Tumblr says that child pornography was the reason for its app’s sudden disappearance from the iOS App Store. The app has been missing from the store since November 16th, but until now the reason for its absence was unclear — initially Tumblr simply said it was “working to resolve the issue with the iOS app.” However, after Download.com approached Tumblr with sources claiming that the reason was related to the discovery of child pornography on the service, the Yahoo-owned social media network issued a new statement confirming the matter. [0] [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/20/18104366/tumblr-ios-app-child-pornography-removed-from-app-store https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/20/18104366/tumblr-ios-app-...
  - wombat-man 4y ago
    Hmm, so did tumblr just decide to ban all porn instead of spending energy on identifying the cp for a selective ban?
    - coldacid 4y ago
      Yep. The easy, cheap, and in no way forward-looking way out.
      - imoverclocked 4y ago
        Forward looking is subjective here. Humanitarian issues should be weighed heavier than technological development. It’s easy to relax rules later but you can’t take back human suffering.
        coldacid 4y ago
mbesto 4y ago
> Apple can kill entire social media platforms if they want to. They also have the opposite - the ability to create entire social media platforms. > Apple gave tumblr unreasonable "safety standards" that almost single-handedly killed a gigantic site for the vast majority of users. > Maybe they used it for good with Facebook Devil's advocate - maybe what you think is good isn't good for the rest of society. > Maybe the only thing preventing them from doing so is regulatory pressure. Agreed. So what type for regulations need to be in place?
dwighttk 4y ago
>Apple threatened to remove all of their users from tumblr if they didn't That isn’t true. Not allowing the tumblr app doesn’t remove all users.
HWR_14 4y ago
There were several similarly large companies that Facebook killed by modifying their algorithm. Let's not pretend that the scale of "hundreds of millions" sized companies can stand up to pressure from Apple/Google/Meta/Microsoft/Amazon. And what's the new acronym to refer to those companies?
- mojuba 4y ago
  GAMMA - though it'd be too cool for these guys.
  - kmeisthax 4y ago
    MAGMA also works
    - anonymousiam 4y ago
      Or delete Facebook (Meta) and now you have MAGA!
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    If we're renaming Facebook to Meta in these acronyms, why is Google->Alphabet always ignored?
    - mojuba 4y ago
      Because Meta = Facebook + Instagram + WhatsApp, all quite significant customer-facing products. What is Alphabet then? It's Google, which is a long list of well known customer-facing products, plus a bunch of obscure or experimental companies the public largely doesn't care about.
    - jefftk 4y ago
      Too many vowels
  - tsol 4y ago
    G'MAMA
kmeisthax 4y ago
tumblr is a bad example. The reason why Apple got on their case about porn was that an app reviewer saw child porn on the front page of the site. Massive red flag that whatever moderation tumblr was doing was ineffective at best. Even before that, their NSFW/porn filtering was so bad that they would literally just block certain search keywords on iOS to get around the problem. Apple's actual policy for the bog-standard, consenting-adults kind of porn is that you can't put it on the App Store, and if you are a social network you need to filter for it. This isn't a full ban; reddit is able to get away with having an off-app NSFW toggle that turns off filtering on the app. A better example might be Discord, which also had a spat with Apple over NSFW servers. Apple wanted specific communities banned from the app; the actual guidance[0] provide by Discord is vague as to why they were banned, but suggests that there's an extra level of NSFW-ness to which the "off-app toggle" solution isn't good enough for Apple. As far as I'm aware there's no appetite at Apple for an "adult tax" - it's specifically that they don't want the brand association[1] that comes with "porn on iPhone". If it was just a matter of the higher chargeback rates of porn, they could have a separate payment processor and commission rate structure for that. [0] https://i.redd.it/shpi09y71lt61.png https://i.redd.it/shpi09y71lt61.png [1] Casual reminder that people are absolutely terrible at separating the product, the OS, and the app vendor from one another when they are very mad at it. Or when a news outfit is trying to sell them anger.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  > Casual reminder that people are absolutely terrible at separating the product, the OS, and the app vendor from one another when they are very mad at it. Or when a news outfit is trying to sell them anger. To be honest I think Apple deciding users shouldn't have regular porn on their own iPhone because Apple doesn't want to be associated with it, is plenty reason to be angry at them. Especially because the app store has a monopoly on iOS. If it was like Android there would be no problem. They're a supplier, not the moral police. And they shouldn't have a say in how we use their products.
nothis 4y ago
Honestly, this sounds like tumblr was crazy dependent on both apple and a porn-like business. That's a weird combo and not one that makes me feel particularly sorry for them. There's a reason facebook, youtube, pinterest and, ultimately, apple don't allow porn. It's a messy business.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nonameiguess 4y ago
This seems to be way overstating whatever role Apple played in this. Tumblr debuted before the iPhone and continues even today to work perfectly fine in a browser. It's just a stream of text and images, effectively exactly what a browser was designed for. I'm sure they'd love the greater access to privacy invading hardware features they can get from a native app, but it hardly seems critical to their continue existence as a product. Also, the estimated drop in user traffic after the adult content ban was 30%. When Tumblr was purchased by Yahoo, they paid $1.1 billion. When Verizon sold it to Wordpress, it was for $3 million. They is way more than a 30% value drop. It seems pretty damn likely to me that Tumblr has just always been somewhat of a niche community compared to the larger social platforms out there and Yahoo overpaid dramatically because Yahoo was one of the stupidest big tech parent companies to ever acquire other companies, and the failure to ever realize that hoped for value had little to do with whether iPhone users could consume through a native app or had to use the browser.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
> Apple should not have this type of power. Apple doesn't. Those customers were free to use Tumblr on Android, Symbian, whatever.
rib3ye 4y ago
Safari on iOS can load a porn site. So what's the problem?
- mhh__ 4y ago
  What does that have to do with Apple killing Tumblr?

by alexb_ 4y ago

kmlx 4y ago

> Apple should not have this type of power. wait a minute, that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store. they've could've just as easily provided a web app and easily instructed their users to have a link on the ios home screen. but they wanted to be on the App Store, so of course they had to follow Apple's rules.

majani 4y ago
And for Tumblr (and most apps out there), they took on on all this headache just for some push notifications and fancy animations. They clearly didn't do their cost-benefit analysis when deciding to make their app
christkv 4y ago
They could have just enforced a age limit on the app instead and let the platform decide if they were ok with 18+ or not
- Mindwipe 4y ago
  No, they couldn't. Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. The Apple app review team is capricious and does not follow their own published guidelines, and that is not news. This was also an issue with Discord - Discord still doesn't (by Apple didact) permit some servers with adult content in the iOS app, because Apple said there was no way to do so and remain in the store.
  - Jcowell 4y ago
    What servers ? I’ve seen a couple with full on adult content.
    - Macha 4y ago
      Partnered servers at least. The ffxiv subreddit server had to remove porn after discord partnership. I think nominally the rules are the same for all public servers, but much like early Reddit, or indeed like Tumblr, Discord does not have the moderation capability to actually enforce that.
    - Mindwipe 4y ago
      https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-Accessing-an-Age-Restricted-Server-FAQ https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005292701-... "Additionally, a subset of age-restricted servers that are specifically focused on explicit pornographic content will be blocked entirely on iOS. "
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    > Multiple developers have said that Apple did not consider this acceptable. Given that the problem with Tumblr was the accessibility of CSAM, I think Apple are probably on the right side here saying "just marking it 18+ is not ok" since, y'know, the issue wasn't that "CSAM is available to minors" but "CSAM is available to anyone".
    - robonerd 4y ago
      Is there any reason to believe reddit didn't/doesn't have this same exact problem? I think Tumblr was singled out and made an example of because they had a narrower user demographic spread, particularly popular with young women. In cynical business logic, this made them a safer target for bullying than a site with broader appeal like reddit, facebook or twitter.
robin_reala 4y ago
Tumblr’s management actively hated their web team: https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816 https://twitter.com/edent/status/729223162467106816
- justinclift 4y ago
  That's not really anyone's fault but Tumblr though. They could have fixed whatever issues they had with the website/team/etc.
- melior 4y ago
  Their web ui was a magnitude slower than their app, mostly due to inefficiently loading new content. On a blog with heavy video, you could manage to freeze your desktop browser within minutes.
alexb_ 4y ago
The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. Sure they could have "provided a web app" that gave a really really shitty experience to everyone compared to an actual app, but that's not an actual alternative and still loses out on a ton of users. Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device, and these are the consequences.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  > The point is Apple's rules are not really rules (as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS) and are really just excuses for selectively bullying out companies they don't like. Exactly right. It's amazing to me that with these global platforms we are seeing exactly why the legal system evolved the way it did, and why we have things like appeals, precendents, the judges, and levels of courts. Getting rules and regulations right is not easy. Relying on these platforms to do it is basically reinventing the wheel, except they don't seem to be reinventing it correctly. They are creating kafkaesque impossible to communicate with bureaucracies. And the funny thing is, due to their focus on profits, they don't really care if 5-10% of the population find it impossible to use their platforms of get banned, because it just doesn't matter to their bottom line if courts and appeals are more expensive to run than just banning them. And then we basically see why equality before the law evolved, and why its to fucking important.
- kmlx 4y ago
  > as evidenced by Twitter existing on iOS there is no “evidence”. it’s a 17+ app with sexual accounts actively banned all of the time which you can’t even access if you’re not logged in, NSFW is disabled by default etc etc > There is absolutely no reason that Apple should have the power to do that. actually there’s a huge reason: they built it, they own it. > Apple has the power to control what software you can download and run on YOUR device the device is meaningless, it’s all about the software. and you don’t own that. so you can’t impose your own rules.
  - 4y ago
ig-88ms 4y ago
Building mobile web apps back in the day was much harder than today.
- threeseed 4y ago
  I built a number of them. It was significantly easier. The Javascript ecosystem today is far more diverse, complex and multi-faceted than in the past. It's hard to put together a simple to develop stack that will be supported and maintainable in the future.
lkxijlewlf 4y ago
I think you're making the case for Apple being too powerful.
Aldo_MX 4y ago
> that's only because Tumblr wanted to be on the App Store Yeah, because the iOS ecosystem is well known for allowing competition, especially competing stores. Many of the issues that Apple create wouldn't exist if competing stores were allowed to exist.
- ezfe 4y ago
  What about Tumblr requires an app to enjoy?
  - Aldo_MX 4y ago
    I don't know, let me ask the anti-Electron gang their thoughts about less battery life just by running a browser environment instead of a native app.
    - uncomputation 4y ago
      This doesn’t make sense. You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. If you used Electron for desktop, you would generate an iOS bundle for the App Store but OP is suggesting just a web app in the vein of HN, just accessed via the browser. The only thing you would use Electron for is desktop but, also like HN, nobody accesses tumblr via a desktop app to begin with. They use a browser.
      - woojoo666 4y ago
        From the article > Apple’s restrictions on third-party browsers, and the limitations it puts on Safari/WebKit (its own browser tools) have hobbled “web apps,” Though I'm sure you can also ask many product managers how well native apps on iOS perform due to web apps (many companies have data on both). For whatever reason, users prefer native apps
      - Aldo_MX 4y ago
        > You wouldn’t have an Electron app on iOS anyways. You're missing the forest for the trees. The issue is not building an app specifically with Electron, but building an app which requires a browser. The browser is expensive in terms of resource usage, which results in less battery life. Using a browser is OK for an app intended for a light usage session (like booking a flight). But not OK for an app which is intended for heavy usage sessions (like browsing pictures in an infinite timeline). There's a reason Slack (which already has a reputation of impacting your battery life) decided to create a native app for mobile instead of using an Electron-like framework like Capacitor[1]. [1]: https://capacitorjs.com/ https://capacitorjs.com/
Tostino 4y ago
Using the hobbled webapp features that Apple hardly allows? That's your solution?
vorpalhex 4y ago
1. Safari did not support PWAs at this time. Other browsers did. 2. Safari had and still has some pretty gnarly bugs that require special workarounds. 3. You could not put a link to a website on the homescreen of iOS
- ec109685 4y ago
  Apple has had PWA’s for years. Tumblr is perfectly fine on the web, but they want people to download the app so they can use push notifications to juice engagement.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    That's a lie. As of Aug 2021, PWA support basically didn't exist except for some parts of the manifest file. No background tasks, none of the major APIs were implemented, and you got nothing but an app tile on your homescreen.. even navigating back and forth from the PWA to another app caused the PWA to lose state. Data storage was basically a nightmare. There are STILL basic fundamental things missing. When the tumblr saga was going on, I still don't think you could even read PWA manifests or add them to your homescreen!
    - ec109685 4y ago
      Here's the definitive list: https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ https://firt.dev/notes/pwa-ios/ None of those things are necessary to create a very full featured Tumblr web application. E.g. twitter works quite well on mobile web. Tumblr wants people to download the app for engagement purposes.

xwdv 4y ago

Companies can always find ways to screw another company over, this is not unique to Apple. Bad example.

2malaq 4y ago
It's not a bad example when it's literally relevant to the article.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  But is it? I don't think iphone market shares are large enough to make a company like tumblr die.
  - alexb_ 4y ago
    Yes they are. iPhones make up over half of all smartphones in America.
    - prmoustache 4y ago
      Globally it is less than 20%.
      - alexb_ 4y ago
        Do you want to be the person who has to explain why your userbase just dropped 20% because you didn't want to ban porn? If Apple says you want to ban something, it's getting banned. "Globally" is also not a good metric here, since the vast majority of tumblr users came from english speaking countries.
        xwdv 4y ago
        You’re right. Better to just ban porn and lose 100% of the user base.
      - simonh 4y ago

nextstep 4y ago

How did Twitter avoid this same fate? Twitter has an iOS app (sort of their main interface nowadays) and they have tons of adult content. Is Twitter powerful enough to stand up to Apple and Tumblr was not?

lrae 4y ago
NSFW content is disabled by default in the iOS app and you can only enable it via web iirc. No idea though if Tumblr had the same option back then.
- Mindwipe 4y ago
  It did. Apple repeatedly said that wasn't sufficient.
  - steego 4y ago
    You’re missing something. Both Twitter and Reddit have apps which allow access to NSFW content.
    - Mindwipe 4y ago
      I'm not, Apple are just extremely inconsistent with the policy.
Mindwipe 4y ago
Because the App Store review team is capricious and contradictory. We've also seen third party Reddit app developers not allowed to feature content that the main Reddit app is despite toggles, and Discord not allowed to feature content that Twitter is. The policy is badly written and not even Apple's own reviewers understand it, and they overreact to complaints from religious groups.
melior 4y ago
Twitter had better resources to prevent NSFW mishaps from creeping into your feed. In 2017, Twitter had dedicated ML resources driving their recommendation engine + human moderators on fallback duty. You need to explicitly opt-in via web app before you can see NSFW using their app. In comparison, Tumblr struggled with NSFW content as they relied heavily on users to police content. Without opting-in, pornograhic posts regularly bled into standard content. With the demographics, CSAM content quickly started to do the same.

pikseladam 4y ago

what about reddit?

Gigachad 4y ago
It apparently went much deeper than just porn. Tumbler had a big pedo problem that they were struggling to deal with which is why Apple delisted them. So they decided that rather than try to filter legal from illegal porn, they would just ban it all.
- Macha 4y ago
  There was a NY Times article about the problem Reddit had with r/jailbait, but Apple did not move against the Reddit app then. You can argue that they were wrong to move against Tumblr, or to not move against Reddit, but I don't think you can argue that the application of this rule is not variable.
  - shagie 4y ago
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/us/opioid-reddit.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iaha3DKDmwaiPkORI-Y-kDMae95atc_3ijdRMNENPVnYs1O-dJlHh4nTRi08NzDkY4ZIi4xpMXuAG89hM7BUfVpqDO6KzS0c7k6zeeytVfbYWntXaHeg3ErJwp1sNAyIwHRrH8MwqnFE-B02cAvnqtyQ8AnGkpTIXWCrPLqCB5hOdqZbRi66gg-X-5RWDG7jsfLovtbM10UUQSaOSs5tWUs69pcO8cVOrL_LnMjccn5hrYTAg94PZbEdXZJ_PSwyc3f3CjYuuE&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/us/opioid-reddit.html?unl... > A group called “jailbait” — it contained provocative images of teenagers — led to a ban of “suggestive or sexual content featuring minors” in 2011. The company also shut down a group called “beatingwomen,” which glorified violence against women. Last year Reddit banned two so-called alt-right subreddits for repeatedly posting personal information that could lead to harassment. It took no action, though, against a subreddit organized around gun sales, which drew scrutiny after a 2014 Mother Jones article suggested that some arms dealers sought to exploit a federal background check loophole. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/19/reddit-and-the-struggle-to-detoxify-the-internet https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/19/reddit-and-the... also goes into it. > In September of 2011, Anderson Cooper discussed the subreddit on CNN. “It’s pretty amazing that a big corporation would have something like this, which reflects badly on it,” he said. Traffic to Jailbait quadrupled overnight. Twelve days later, after someone in the group apparently shared a nude photo of a fourteen-year-old girl, the community was banned. --- The Apple / Tumblr issue is much more recent (did Reddit even have an App Store app in 2011 - the version history doesn't go back that far).

mgiannopoulos 4y ago

So Tumblr died because it was dependent on porn traffic? If that is the case, they were already “dead” (or at least not worth hundreds of millions), and Apple’s rules had nothing to do with it.

alexb_ 4y ago
In order for tumblr to get into the good graces of Apple (which again, they absolutely should not have to do at all), they had to ban an absolutely absurd amount of content. Especially bad when a large part of your userbase is LGBT, and anything relating to that gets flagged as "adult" by automated systems.
- threeseed 4y ago
  > and anything relating to that gets flagged as "adult" by automated systems Maybe Tumblr should have taken a page out of Apple's book and had reviewers.
  - marvin 4y ago
    Tumblr should have just dropped the share of their users that accessed their platform through the iOS app. But meh. They chose the other option.
hyperbovine 4y ago
Wait why? Porn sites are hugely profitable. Pornhub rakes in more monthly traffic than Google and FB combined.
- mi_lk 4y ago
  > Pornhub rakes in more monthly traffic than Google and FB combined. traffic measured in visitors or bytes downloaded? any source?
  - lucideer 4y ago

parkingrift 4y ago

iOS has a 14% market share and Apple has absolutely no way to police content outside of the App Store. How did Apple ruin the Tumblr site? Why hasn’t pornhub met the same fate?

ig-88ms 4y ago
"If you want to watch porn, buy an Android" - Steve Jobs.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  There’s porn on my phone, Mr. Jobs. Where? Which app?!? The app I believed is called “the internet.”
robgibbons 4y ago
57.43% in the US
- parkingrift 4y ago
  Does Facebook only operate in the US, now?
Salgat 4y ago
iOS is at 50% market share of phones in the US.
FinalBriefing 4y ago
Or reddit. I don't see how reddit is any different from Tumblr in this case, and it has several apps. Has Apple loosened up their restrictions since Tumblr went under?
concinds 4y ago
> Apple has absolutely no way to police content outside of the App Store Wrong and naive. They have no direct way. Plenty of indirect ways. > How did Apple ruin the Tumblr site? Taleb's minority rule. Also read tumblr insiders' accounts of the porn ban that lay the blame much more on Apple than mainstream reporting does. > Why hasn’t pornhub met the same If Twitter/tumblr/reddit had no app, their mobile engagement would halve or worse. Not true for Pornhub.

simonh 4y ago

They took a hit for sure, but seem to be recovering. "Over the course of the pandemic, Gen Z flocked to Tumblr; as of early 2022, 61% of its new users, and nearly half of its active users, are under 24. Tumblr today has more daily active users than WordPress, its professional sibling, has per month, according to a spokesperson." https://qz.com/emails/quartz-company/2139456/tumblr-making-comeback/ https://qz.com/emails/quartz-company/2139456/tumblr-making-c...

ksec 4y ago

From Apple's perspective, If you want access to Apple's user. You have to play by their rules. Remember even if those users are Tumblr's reader or members, they are ultimately accessing it via iPhone, whether that is through Safari or Apps. And Apple dictate the rules. Since Apple is a force of Good. Apple are righteous. Their fellow evangelist will tell you everything else are by their definition are Evil. Such as Ads. And banning whatever it is, whether that is porn, news that does not adhere to their political views, or music that doesn't fits certain requirement. And they are fighting all these evil for you, an act of love.

lancesells 4y ago
I've never heard of Apple dictating anything through Safari on iOS. Are they blocking sites that they don't approve of?
- oaiey 4y ago
  When I remember right, there is a blacklist but nothing serious on it.
oaiey 4y ago
> Apple's user This ownership wording is the wrong thinking when it comes to platforms.
- munchenphile 4y ago
  Exactly. If I buy and drive a BMW, I’m a BMW driver. I’m not BMW’s user. What a scary way to phrase that relationship.
- xdennis 4y ago
  But it is how these companies see people, which is what GP is talking about.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    More importantly, that's how these companies treat people and get away with it. So, however wrong and scary it is, it's also true.

rusk 4y ago

> unreasonable "safety standards" Are these the same safety standards that cause apple predictive text to refuse to recognise the cuss words I a grown adult use and have to go back and fix over and over again. Ducking stupid if you ask me.

Shank 4y ago
> Tumblr says that child pornography was the reason for its app’s sudden disappearance from the iOS App Store. The app has been missing from the store since November 16th, but until now the reason for its absence was unclear — initially Tumblr simply said it was “working to resolve the issue with the iOS app.” However, after Download.com approached Tumblr with sources claiming that the reason was related to the discovery of child pornography on the service, the Yahoo-owned social media network issued a new statement confirming the matter. [0] [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/20/18104366/tumblr-ios-app-child-pornography-removed-from-app-store https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/20/18104366/tumblr-ios-app-...
- wombat-man 4y ago
  Hmm, so did tumblr just decide to ban all porn instead of spending energy on identifying the cp for a selective ban?
  - coldacid 4y ago
    Yep. The easy, cheap, and in no way forward-looking way out.
    - imoverclocked 4y ago
      Forward looking is subjective here. Humanitarian issues should be weighed heavier than technological development. It’s easy to relax rules later but you can’t take back human suffering.
      - coldacid 4y ago

mbesto 4y ago

> Apple can kill entire social media platforms if they want to. They also have the opposite - the ability to create entire social media platforms. > Apple gave tumblr unreasonable "safety standards" that almost single-handedly killed a gigantic site for the vast majority of users. > Maybe they used it for good with Facebook Devil's advocate - maybe what you think is good isn't good for the rest of society. > Maybe the only thing preventing them from doing so is regulatory pressure. Agreed. So what type for regulations need to be in place?

dwighttk 4y ago

>Apple threatened to remove all of their users from tumblr if they didn't That isn’t true. Not allowing the tumblr app doesn’t remove all users.

HWR_14 4y ago

There were several similarly large companies that Facebook killed by modifying their algorithm. Let's not pretend that the scale of "hundreds of millions" sized companies can stand up to pressure from Apple/Google/Meta/Microsoft/Amazon. And what's the new acronym to refer to those companies?

mojuba 4y ago
GAMMA - though it'd be too cool for these guys.
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  MAGMA also works
  - anonymousiam 4y ago
    Or delete Facebook (Meta) and now you have MAGA!
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  If we're renaming Facebook to Meta in these acronyms, why is Google->Alphabet always ignored?
  - mojuba 4y ago
    Because Meta = Facebook + Instagram + WhatsApp, all quite significant customer-facing products. What is Alphabet then? It's Google, which is a long list of well known customer-facing products, plus a bunch of obscure or experimental companies the public largely doesn't care about.
  - jefftk 4y ago
    Too many vowels
- tsol 4y ago
  G'MAMA

kmeisthax 4y ago

tumblr is a bad example. The reason why Apple got on their case about porn was that an app reviewer saw child porn on the front page of the site. Massive red flag that whatever moderation tumblr was doing was ineffective at best. Even before that, their NSFW/porn filtering was so bad that they would literally just block certain search keywords on iOS to get around the problem. Apple's actual policy for the bog-standard, consenting-adults kind of porn is that you can't put it on the App Store, and if you are a social network you need to filter for it. This isn't a full ban; reddit is able to get away with having an off-app NSFW toggle that turns off filtering on the app. A better example might be Discord, which also had a spat with Apple over NSFW servers. Apple wanted specific communities banned from the app; the actual guidance[0] provide by Discord is vague as to why they were banned, but suggests that there's an extra level of NSFW-ness to which the "off-app toggle" solution isn't good enough for Apple. As far as I'm aware there's no appetite at Apple for an "adult tax" - it's specifically that they don't want the brand association[1] that comes with "porn on iPhone". If it was just a matter of the higher chargeback rates of porn, they could have a separate payment processor and commission rate structure for that. [0] https://i.redd.it/shpi09y71lt61.png https://i.redd.it/shpi09y71lt61.png [1] Casual reminder that people are absolutely terrible at separating the product, the OS, and the app vendor from one another when they are very mad at it. Or when a news outfit is trying to sell them anger.

GekkePrutser 4y ago
> Casual reminder that people are absolutely terrible at separating the product, the OS, and the app vendor from one another when they are very mad at it. Or when a news outfit is trying to sell them anger. To be honest I think Apple deciding users shouldn't have regular porn on their own iPhone because Apple doesn't want to be associated with it, is plenty reason to be angry at them. Especially because the app store has a monopoly on iOS. If it was like Android there would be no problem. They're a supplier, not the moral police. And they shouldn't have a say in how we use their products.

nothis 4y ago

Honestly, this sounds like tumblr was crazy dependent on both apple and a porn-like business. That's a weird combo and not one that makes me feel particularly sorry for them. There's a reason facebook, youtube, pinterest and, ultimately, apple don't allow porn. It's a messy business.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nonameiguess 4y ago

This seems to be way overstating whatever role Apple played in this. Tumblr debuted before the iPhone and continues even today to work perfectly fine in a browser. It's just a stream of text and images, effectively exactly what a browser was designed for. I'm sure they'd love the greater access to privacy invading hardware features they can get from a native app, but it hardly seems critical to their continue existence as a product. Also, the estimated drop in user traffic after the adult content ban was 30%. When Tumblr was purchased by Yahoo, they paid $1.1 billion. When Verizon sold it to Wordpress, it was for $3 million. They is way more than a 30% value drop. It seems pretty damn likely to me that Tumblr has just always been somewhat of a niche community compared to the larger social platforms out there and Yahoo overpaid dramatically because Yahoo was one of the stupidest big tech parent companies to ever acquire other companies, and the failure to ever realize that hoped for value had little to do with whether iPhone users could consume through a native app or had to use the browser.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

> Apple should not have this type of power. Apple doesn't. Those customers were free to use Tumblr on Android, Symbian, whatever.

rib3ye 4y ago

Safari on iOS can load a porn site. So what's the problem?

mhh__ 4y ago
What does that have to do with Apple killing Tumblr?