7 ms·

Singapore is 48.25% women in STEM vs 28% globally. https://www.ntu.edu.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/powers/ntu_powers_stemgendergapinsingapor

Singapore is 48.25% women in STEM vs 28% globally. https://www.ntu.edu.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/powers/ntu_powers_stemgendergapinsingapore.pdf?sfvrsn=a2f34ed0_3/%20NTU_POWERS_STEMGenderGapInSingapore%20.pdf https://www.ntu.edu.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-... However that number drops after graduation until it reaches a low 13.1 percent in management. The fact of the matter is that it isn't the lack of jobs or role models etc that's causing the issue, its the fact that females are worse at handling acute stress which is associated with STEM related jobs. Women require alot more emotional support that would simply be unavailable during a "facts only" argument or discussion. This is also partly why there are so little women in very early stage startups. That being said, women are well suited for companies that have already gone past the initial growth stage, so instead of fighting against how different gender works, it may be better for everyone to focus on what they do best.

KuiN 4y ago
> the fact that females are worse at handling acute stress Do you have a source for this alleged fact?
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  There are countless studies you can find with a quick google search for stress women men study
Swenrekcah 4y ago
While I agree that there are certainly different interests and other various non-nefarious reasons for why we won’t get a 50/50 gender division in all possible fields, I’d suggest you rethink the idea that women can’t handle stress. For one thing, nursing is usually almost exclusively women and I don’t think that can be called a stress free environment.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  Is significantly more related to physical and emotional stress than the stress of white boarding the next release with your coworker that has tone problems, but is otherwise effective.
nils-m-holm 4y ago
> the fact that females are worse at handling acute stress Or, maybe, they just know better that enduring acute stress is a bad career choice.
- jleyank 4y ago
  People who are female, smart, unhindered by their society and sufficiency wealthy to have agency can choose what they want to do. Why choose software development when medicine, finance and science are open? Yeah, some are introverted and are into programming but even for those, there’s way easier money owning the developers than being one. Far too many “fail” the last two criteria.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    - jleyank 4y ago
      Pedantic much?
      - lm28469 4y ago
        I don't think so, it's used a lot in the incel, and other, community in a degrading way. You don't say "I'll go to the swimming pool with my progeny" either Words have meaning, if you use "men" in a sentence why use "female" in the next ?
        jleyank 4y ago
        There’s a mix of jargon and a mix of biology vs psychology (for lack of a better term to describe how the wetware works vs is constructed). Hence, standing on strict definitions without a full explanation of the jargon you use is problematical. Women vs female might be clear in your mind, but does it agree with my approach? Or our reader’s? The meaning was clear otherwise you would not have tried to change the terminology.
spzb 4y ago
> females are worse at handling acute stress Every time this kind of issue comes up on HN there's someone who comes along to mansplain why women are inherently less able to do tech jobs. It's not a good look for our profession and we really should be above this by now.
- danieltanfh95 4y ago
  What good about being "above this" by avoiding the issue at all. Understanding this fact and owning it means to increase women in tech, we need to factor in stress in the development cycle, we need to make sure that there are more or better avenues to enable social sharing of stress, and that may or may not even be incentivised at the corporate or tax level. This all comes with first accepting that women need help handling stress, so we can actually work on the problem and not hand waving it away by pretending that it isn't a problem.
- throw_bin_hat 4y ago
  - spzb 4y ago
    And that's exactly the attitude I'm talking about
- fxtentacle 4y ago
  This is a thorny discussion, but it appears that IQ is unevenly distributed and the differences in variance are even stronger. And the end result seems to be that if you select for IQ > 150 people, then you expect to see 80% men 20% women purely due to biological causes. Whether or not we (the society) should accept that outcome is a completely different thing. But if you average over enough people, there are very real development differences between genders and some of them are related to brain energy supply and/or brain volume. And I believe the GP was right, stress response is also heavily biologically modulated. It kind of makes sense that the average 1.6m women would respond differently to a hungry tiger than a 1.9m bodybuilder... right?
Tarsul 4y ago
btw. for the other readers: the 48% f/m in STEM is split as follows according to the linked study above: 74% (f/m) in health sciences; 27% in engineering; 32% in information technology; 60% in natural, physical and mathematical sciences. I think the most relevant sentence comes on page 8: "In short, data tell us that the gender gap is not consistent across STEM disciplines. Women generally prefer STEM studies and careers which are people-oriented (e.g., medical science) over careers which are things-oriented (e.g., many branches of engineering) (Su & Rounds, 2015)." Stress is probably not the most important factor; at least it's not in this study. I'd argue that women simply know that people are more important than money.
- danieltanfh95 4y ago
  as mentioned, women gravitate towards careers that provides for or provide women with emotional support to help with stress. That cannot be said of engineering-related or "things-oriented" jobs, stress is not factored into the development cycle.
fxtentacle 4y ago
I would have expected it to be because roughly 80% start making babies after graduation.
- lmz 4y ago
  Not Singaporeans no. I'm pretty sure their birth rate is below replacement.
  - adamrezich 4y ago
    well if that's the case then that's certainly a more important issue than the one being discussed here...
    - danieltanfh95 4y ago
      funnily enough, it might be due to the fact that more women participate in STEM for Singapore than other countries in the region that causes an overall lowered birth rate due to psychological stress.
neonate 4y ago
> females are worse at handling acute stress which is associated with STEM related jobs I don't believe that jobs like programming involve more "acute stress" than medicine or law, which many women have moved into. Not to mention nursing, as Swenrekcah pointed out. Or teaching for that matter.

KuiN 4y ago

> the fact that females are worse at handling acute stress Do you have a source for this alleged fact?

Traubenfuchs 4y ago
There are countless studies you can find with a quick google search for stress women men study

Swenrekcah 4y ago

While I agree that there are certainly different interests and other various non-nefarious reasons for why we won’t get a 50/50 gender division in all possible fields, I’d suggest you rethink the idea that women can’t handle stress. For one thing, nursing is usually almost exclusively women and I don’t think that can be called a stress free environment.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
Is significantly more related to physical and emotional stress than the stress of white boarding the next release with your coworker that has tone problems, but is otherwise effective.

nils-m-holm 4y ago

> the fact that females are worse at handling acute stress Or, maybe, they just know better that enduring acute stress is a bad career choice.

jleyank 4y ago
People who are female, smart, unhindered by their society and sufficiency wealthy to have agency can choose what they want to do. Why choose software development when medicine, finance and science are open? Yeah, some are introverted and are into programming but even for those, there’s way easier money owning the developers than being one. Far too many “fail” the last two criteria.
- lm28469 4y ago
  - jleyank 4y ago
    Pedantic much?
    - lm28469 4y ago
      I don't think so, it's used a lot in the incel, and other, community in a degrading way. You don't say "I'll go to the swimming pool with my progeny" either Words have meaning, if you use "men" in a sentence why use "female" in the next ?
      - jleyank 4y ago
        There’s a mix of jargon and a mix of biology vs psychology (for lack of a better term to describe how the wetware works vs is constructed). Hence, standing on strict definitions without a full explanation of the jargon you use is problematical. Women vs female might be clear in your mind, but does it agree with my approach? Or our reader’s? The meaning was clear otherwise you would not have tried to change the terminology.

spzb 4y ago

> females are worse at handling acute stress Every time this kind of issue comes up on HN there's someone who comes along to mansplain why women are inherently less able to do tech jobs. It's not a good look for our profession and we really should be above this by now.

danieltanfh95 4y ago
What good about being "above this" by avoiding the issue at all. Understanding this fact and owning it means to increase women in tech, we need to factor in stress in the development cycle, we need to make sure that there are more or better avenues to enable social sharing of stress, and that may or may not even be incentivised at the corporate or tax level. This all comes with first accepting that women need help handling stress, so we can actually work on the problem and not hand waving it away by pretending that it isn't a problem.
throw_bin_hat 4y ago
- spzb 4y ago
  And that's exactly the attitude I'm talking about
fxtentacle 4y ago
This is a thorny discussion, but it appears that IQ is unevenly distributed and the differences in variance are even stronger. And the end result seems to be that if you select for IQ > 150 people, then you expect to see 80% men 20% women purely due to biological causes. Whether or not we (the society) should accept that outcome is a completely different thing. But if you average over enough people, there are very real development differences between genders and some of them are related to brain energy supply and/or brain volume. And I believe the GP was right, stress response is also heavily biologically modulated. It kind of makes sense that the average 1.6m women would respond differently to a hungry tiger than a 1.9m bodybuilder... right?

Tarsul 4y ago

btw. for the other readers: the 48% f/m in STEM is split as follows according to the linked study above: 74% (f/m) in health sciences; 27% in engineering; 32% in information technology; 60% in natural, physical and mathematical sciences. I think the most relevant sentence comes on page 8: "In short, data tell us that the gender gap is not consistent across STEM disciplines. Women generally prefer STEM studies and careers which are people-oriented (e.g., medical science) over careers which are things-oriented (e.g., many branches of engineering) (Su & Rounds, 2015)." Stress is probably not the most important factor; at least it's not in this study. I'd argue that women simply know that people are more important than money.

danieltanfh95 4y ago
as mentioned, women gravitate towards careers that provides for or provide women with emotional support to help with stress. That cannot be said of engineering-related or "things-oriented" jobs, stress is not factored into the development cycle.

fxtentacle 4y ago

I would have expected it to be because roughly 80% start making babies after graduation.

lmz 4y ago
Not Singaporeans no. I'm pretty sure their birth rate is below replacement.
- adamrezich 4y ago
  well if that's the case then that's certainly a more important issue than the one being discussed here...
  - danieltanfh95 4y ago
    funnily enough, it might be due to the fact that more women participate in STEM for Singapore than other countries in the region that causes an overall lowered birth rate due to psychological stress.

neonate 4y ago

> females are worse at handling acute stress which is associated with STEM related jobs I don't believe that jobs like programming involve more "acute stress" than medicine or law, which many women have moved into. Not to mention nursing, as Swenrekcah pointed out. Or teaching for that matter.