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>The undeniable fact is that regulations will be put in place for crypto why is this so undeniable? I would think well-implemented cryptocurrencies would be fa

>The undeniable fact is that regulations will be put in place for crypto why is this so undeniable? I would think well-implemented cryptocurrencies would be fairly regulation resistant

ReptileMan 4y ago
Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services and the state will just control the border. There will be cases in which a weak state economy can become bitcoinized the same way some have become dolarizesld, but for strong states it is easy to make the border between the currencies as tight as they want it.
- cowtools 4y ago
  >Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services You do? What is the purpose of cryptocurrency if you are just going to convert back into cash the moment you use it? I think the end goal for cryptocurrency is to create a circular, P2P economy[0][1] Seems pretty difficult to regulate only some cryptocurrencies if it's already possible to anonymously and trustlessly swap between them[2] [0] https://monerica.com/ https://monerica.com/ [1] https://localmonero.co/ https://localmonero.co/ [2] https://unstoppableswap.net/ https://unstoppableswap.net/
  - malka 4y ago
    At some point, you ll need to pay taxes. in the money of choice of your current governing body.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Right, that's the point. Unless you're stuck in some shithole country like El Salvador, there's no purpose to cryptocurrency.
  - e63f67dd-065b 4y ago
    Easy: if congress bans all crypto tomorrow, you can trivially check which websites accept crypto, and then send them a letter to not do that. If they don’t comply, you tell the registrar/host/ISP to shut them down, then they don’t have a website anymore. The point is that at some point real people, subject to laws and regulations, will have to touch the thing you’re buying. If you’re buying a sandwich, it doesn’t matter the guy making the sandwich accepts crypto if the government can put them in jail for doing so.
- babyshake 4y ago
  Would these regulations prevent something like offshore merchants selling goods, perhaps gold bars or something, for crypto and converting into fiat?
  - OtmaneBenazzou 4y ago
    well it already happens with cash, so no
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- robocat 4y ago
  > into fiat to procure goods and services and the state will just control the border. Regurgitated “fiat” meme. Counter-example 1: buying services over the internet. What fiat and where is the relevant border? Counter-example 2: go overseas and use services. What fiat and where is the relevant border? Arguments about fiat and borders are often silly. However, a jurisdiction can make crypto illegal or risky.
  - ReptileMan 4y ago
    By border I meant the point in which you have to convert the bitcoin to obtain something. The moment when you have to buy local currency to pay taxes, utility bills, food, fuel, clothes, pay toll taxes on the roads etc ... A government can make it arbitrarily hard or illegal to do that.
  - soco 4y ago
    What exactly is "over the internet" and "overseas"? Aren't those real world countries, with real world legislation, where real world offerers of services can be jailed for using crypto? Or your entire argument is based that there will always be some exotic country (like El Salvador tried and apparently failed) will have a better view on crypto and also offer all services you might need?
djbusby 4y ago
How would a technical implementation detail block legislation?
- rglullis 4y ago
  The point is not the legislation. The point is enforcement. You can write and pass whatever law you want. If it can not be enforced, it does not exist.
  - jquery 4y ago
    If our government can catch money launderers because they’re running empty washing machines or selling unused tickets to shows, it’s hard to think of anything useful crypto can do that couldn’t be meaningfully regulated away.
    - ETH_start 4y ago
      The government takes billions of dollars from people every year without due process, using civil forfeiture laws: https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeiture-rakes-in-billions-each-year-does-not-fight-crime-2/ https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeitu... But there's no evidence it stops much real money laundering: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25741292.2020.1725366 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25741292.2020.1... If money laundering were effectively dealt with, that would stop almost all theft and organized crime, as laundering the proceeds of these crimes to spend them would be nearly impossible. Obviously that will never happen.
      - jquery 4y ago
        I’m against civil forfeiture laws, I don’t think they are important in the fight against money laundering. Anyway I’m not saying money laundering doesn’t happen, it does… and that’s probably the best case use case for crypto and one of the pillars of its value-add. People who don’t care about legality won’t care if crypto is regulated away either. I’m just demonstrating it’s not free to get away with these crimes. Plenty of people get nailed for money laundering every year.
csa 4y ago
Do an internet search for UIGEA for a blueprint on how to do this in the US.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Xkcd of course had it right even back when "crypto" meant something else :) https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ Regulation and law indeed may not be able to beat crypto technologically. They don't need to. Humans are the weak squishy link in the chain. I don't need a supercomputer to crunch down your crypto, I need a warrant for your arrest or subpoena to ask for all your documents. I can outlaw your ability to operate without logs. Sure that would suck, but equally in crypto currency and normal world. Either exists as much at the mercy of the government, democratic or otherwise, to preserve the privacy, as much as the technological capability. Unless we go completely anarchic (and I'm not personally looking forward to that), humans will remain squishy and laws will remain relevant.
- cowtools 4y ago
  Go ahead, unlock your hard drives then. Disable HTTPS, it makes no difference right? The government can just do evil maid attacks while you're asleep or rubber-hose whatever CA you're using anyways. While you're at it, why don't you leave the door to your house unlocked? The government can just kick it in whenever they want, no biggie, right? Strong cryptography still remains a formidable barrier for law enforcement, regardless of what pessimists like munroe would have you think.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Munroe isn't a pessimist: he's a humorist.
    - cowtools 4y ago
      well you know what they say about humor on the internet, poe's law and all. I guess the joke is that security is presented as an all-or-nothing situation, when in reality security is just about disproportionally increasing the cost for attackers and decreasing the severity of their attacks.
  - nemothekid 4y ago
    >Go ahead, unlock your hard drives then. Disable HTTPS, it makes no difference right? In what world is the Government your only threat?

>The undeniable fact is that regulations will be put in place for crypto why is this so undeniable? I would think well-implemented cryptocurrencies would be fairly regulation resistant

ReptileMan 4y ago

Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services and the state will just control the border. There will be cases in which a weak state economy can become bitcoinized the same way some have become dolarizesld, but for strong states it is easy to make the border between the currencies as tight as they want it.

cowtools 4y ago
>Because you have to convert the crypto into fiat to procure goods and services You do? What is the purpose of cryptocurrency if you are just going to convert back into cash the moment you use it? I think the end goal for cryptocurrency is to create a circular, P2P economy[0][1] Seems pretty difficult to regulate only some cryptocurrencies if it's already possible to anonymously and trustlessly swap between them[2] [0] https://monerica.com/ https://monerica.com/ [1] https://localmonero.co/ https://localmonero.co/ [2] https://unstoppableswap.net/ https://unstoppableswap.net/
- malka 4y ago
  At some point, you ll need to pay taxes. in the money of choice of your current governing body.
- nradov 4y ago
  Right, that's the point. Unless you're stuck in some shithole country like El Salvador, there's no purpose to cryptocurrency.
- e63f67dd-065b 4y ago
  Easy: if congress bans all crypto tomorrow, you can trivially check which websites accept crypto, and then send them a letter to not do that. If they don’t comply, you tell the registrar/host/ISP to shut them down, then they don’t have a website anymore. The point is that at some point real people, subject to laws and regulations, will have to touch the thing you’re buying. If you’re buying a sandwich, it doesn’t matter the guy making the sandwich accepts crypto if the government can put them in jail for doing so.
babyshake 4y ago
Would these regulations prevent something like offshore merchants selling goods, perhaps gold bars or something, for crypto and converting into fiat?
- OtmaneBenazzou 4y ago
  well it already happens with cash, so no
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
robocat 4y ago
> into fiat to procure goods and services and the state will just control the border. Regurgitated “fiat” meme. Counter-example 1: buying services over the internet. What fiat and where is the relevant border? Counter-example 2: go overseas and use services. What fiat and where is the relevant border? Arguments about fiat and borders are often silly. However, a jurisdiction can make crypto illegal or risky.
- ReptileMan 4y ago
  By border I meant the point in which you have to convert the bitcoin to obtain something. The moment when you have to buy local currency to pay taxes, utility bills, food, fuel, clothes, pay toll taxes on the roads etc ... A government can make it arbitrarily hard or illegal to do that.
- soco 4y ago
  What exactly is "over the internet" and "overseas"? Aren't those real world countries, with real world legislation, where real world offerers of services can be jailed for using crypto? Or your entire argument is based that there will always be some exotic country (like El Salvador tried and apparently failed) will have a better view on crypto and also offer all services you might need?

djbusby 4y ago

How would a technical implementation detail block legislation?

rglullis 4y ago
The point is not the legislation. The point is enforcement. You can write and pass whatever law you want. If it can not be enforced, it does not exist.
- jquery 4y ago
  If our government can catch money launderers because they’re running empty washing machines or selling unused tickets to shows, it’s hard to think of anything useful crypto can do that couldn’t be meaningfully regulated away.
  - ETH_start 4y ago
    The government takes billions of dollars from people every year without due process, using civil forfeiture laws: https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeiture-rakes-in-billions-each-year-does-not-fight-crime-2/ https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeitu... But there's no evidence it stops much real money laundering: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25741292.2020.1725366 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25741292.2020.1... If money laundering were effectively dealt with, that would stop almost all theft and organized crime, as laundering the proceeds of these crimes to spend them would be nearly impossible. Obviously that will never happen.
    - jquery 4y ago
      I’m against civil forfeiture laws, I don’t think they are important in the fight against money laundering. Anyway I’m not saying money laundering doesn’t happen, it does… and that’s probably the best case use case for crypto and one of the pillars of its value-add. People who don’t care about legality won’t care if crypto is regulated away either. I’m just demonstrating it’s not free to get away with these crimes. Plenty of people get nailed for money laundering every year.

csa 4y ago

Do an internet search for UIGEA for a blueprint on how to do this in the US.

NikolaNovak 4y ago

Xkcd of course had it right even back when "crypto" meant something else :) https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ Regulation and law indeed may not be able to beat crypto technologically. They don't need to. Humans are the weak squishy link in the chain. I don't need a supercomputer to crunch down your crypto, I need a warrant for your arrest or subpoena to ask for all your documents. I can outlaw your ability to operate without logs. Sure that would suck, but equally in crypto currency and normal world. Either exists as much at the mercy of the government, democratic or otherwise, to preserve the privacy, as much as the technological capability. Unless we go completely anarchic (and I'm not personally looking forward to that), humans will remain squishy and laws will remain relevant.

cowtools 4y ago
Go ahead, unlock your hard drives then. Disable HTTPS, it makes no difference right? The government can just do evil maid attacks while you're asleep or rubber-hose whatever CA you're using anyways. While you're at it, why don't you leave the door to your house unlocked? The government can just kick it in whenever they want, no biggie, right? Strong cryptography still remains a formidable barrier for law enforcement, regardless of what pessimists like munroe would have you think.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Munroe isn't a pessimist: he's a humorist.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    well you know what they say about humor on the internet, poe's law and all. I guess the joke is that security is presented as an all-or-nothing situation, when in reality security is just about disproportionally increasing the cost for attackers and decreasing the severity of their attacks.
- nemothekid 4y ago
  >Go ahead, unlock your hard drives then. Disable HTTPS, it makes no difference right? In what world is the Government your only threat?