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I don’t understand this obsession with finding secret tricks to dieting. The root problem is the abundance of cheap, overly processed food being advertised to p

I don’t understand this obsession with finding secret tricks to dieting. The root problem is the abundance of cheap, overly processed food being advertised to people with a lack of willpower. Until we tackle those core problems, everything is pointless, because finding a workaround means enabling yet more of the bad behaviour.

PartiallyTyped 4y ago
It often isn't lack of will power, but other issues. Nobody wants to be overweight or obese, but people suffer from all sorts of other issues that make it harder for them to get their life in order.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  I dunno man, I've been super fat all my life, except in college when I decided to get in shape I developed a healthy diet and healthy habits, and was able to get down to a healthy weight.. but staying there required a constant influx of willpower. If I only ate enough food to stay at a low weight, I was hungry all the time. (Eventually I ballooned back out, although now I'm losing weight again since I've realized that Morbid Obesity is no place for old men) I think there is a systems issue at work. My body is just calibrated to hog food until it gets pretty fat, and then it'll stay there unless I do something out of the ordinary. Telling fat people to get their shit together can work, the same way telling poor people to learn to code works. (I don't think that thin people are thin because they're hungry all the time and they overpower those urges, the same way poor people aren't necessarily all bad people who piss away all their money)
  - Enginerrrd 4y ago
    Yeah this aligns pretty well with the research. There's a lot we don't know. But it definitely does appear that a lot of obese people have some sort of homeostatic miscalibration on where their body's set point is for weight. The mechanisms involved there are numerous and complex. It's quite possible that there's something simple going on that could be adjusted in the future to get a person's weight set point down, and from there it's quite likely that they will be able to autoregulate. Conversely, it's really hard for any intervention to succeed long-term when a person's weight doesn't match this internal set point.
    - epicureanideal 4y ago
      > some sort of homeostatic miscalibration Possibly leftovers of a highly adaptive mechanism that let some of their ancestors survive times of extreme famine?
      - Enginerrrd 4y ago
        That's at least partially true, but there are serious issues with that explanation if you want to explain all of the effect. In particular, there really does appear to be something different going on in the last 2-4 decades or so affecting people's internal set points. When you compare to other recent historical times where there was also an abundance of food, people were self-regulating better than they are now.
  - confidantlake 4y ago
    I agree with this. As a non overweight person I don't feel hungry all the time. However, I don't think it is genetics can explain why the obesity rate has exploded in recent decades. Seeing friends and family members that are overweight, they tend to have some similar habits. They consume a lot of liquid calories, ie sodas, fruit juice, sugar in coffee etc. They also eat calorie dense foods, ie ranch dressing, fast food, cookies while consuming fewer fruits and vegetables. They also tend to not consume as much protein and are usually fairly sedentary. I don't think blaming individuals does much good, but at the same time I don't think some people are just doomed to be fat. If everyone around you is eating healthy non calorie dense food and walking a lot you probably will too. Conversely if everyone around you is eating high quantities of processed food while being sedentary you probably will too.
  - sn9 4y ago
    There actually is a fix for your particular issue (and indeed this would help many people). You just need to eat nutritiously dense, high fiber foods that have low caloric density to fill you up. So a diet heavy in vegetables and whole foods would keep you full without keeping you at a heavier weight. This would allow you to maintain a caloric deficit to get to your goal weight without going hungry, and once you get to your goal weight you can just reintroduce other foods that are more calorically dense if you'd like. There's a subreddit filled with examples of this kinda thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Volumeeating/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Volumeeating/
    - Firmwarrior 4y ago
      Thanks man. I did notice that when I moved to Japan for a few years, I lost a pretty decent amount of weight just from the different habits I'll check that out for sure.. right now I'm in the honeymoon phase of dieting, where I can lose weight by just switching from sugary soda to sparkling water and staying away from American restaurants
crdrost 4y ago
The metaproblem is that you're thinking of this as a systems problem, the people who irk you are thinking of it as isolated—an isolated closed-box test, no less. Like, most people in this discussion would not think of mental-health therapy as a diet plan, but if you're thinking in terms of the systems involved then that seems more likely to generate more weight loss than any fad diet over a long run. It's just really tempting to be reductive.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  > most people in this discussion would not think of mental-health therapy as a diet plan Absolutely. "Just eat less" is not a viable strategy for a parent working 60-70 hours per week who needs to eat a high calorie diet, among other unhealthy practices, just to stay barely functional to support their family. Or someone who is so exhausted by their work just to keep a roof over their head that they have no mental energy to think about shopping for different food, preparing it, and so on.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > eat a high calorie diet, among other unhealthy practices Eating a high-calorie diet is not unhealthy.
  - Shorel 4y ago
    I have more energy and can work more hours since I switched to a Keto diet. I think it's probably the other way around: you fix your diet first, and mental health will improve as a result.
cjohansson 4y ago
Very good points, I'm saving that text in my library
standardUser 4y ago
I don't believe you don't understand why people would want to find easier ways to lose weight.
- honkler 4y ago
  You’re trying to treat cancer with bandaids
  - notnaut 4y ago
    If there were a bandaid cure for cancer, we’d use it.
    - blowski 4y ago
      Absolutely. But there isn't a bandaid for either cancer or obesity.
      - throwaway09223 4y ago
        Of course there isn't. That's why we're still looking for one. Looking for easy solutions is very understandable, re: the original topic.
        jasonhansel 4y ago
        +1. People seem to think that, since they had to suffer through diet and exercise to lose weight, everyone else should have to suffer equally; for some reason people think it's "unfair" to lose weight through e.g. medications. This makes no sense, and it isn't consistent with how we treat any other illness.
        sinsterizme 4y ago
        Being fat isn’t an illness in the same sense as we normally define it. It’s a conscious decision making process that is self-inflicted. It’s lazy to turn to medication just because the real method is difficult. Most medication has side effects, deal with the root issue instead
cjohansson 4y ago
Even if you eat healthy food you still need willpower to prevent yourself from eating too much. But it's a easier problem
jeroenhd 4y ago
Advertising is only part of the problem, as is accessibility and price. You don't grow obese by eating a candy bar once a week, you have to turn your unhealthy food consumption into a pattern and patterns of behaviour are inherently difficult to change. You can remove all advertising for candy and fast food and most people will still not lose any weight. At best you'll prevent new obesity cases by a tiny margin. When actively trying to lose weight, the body and mind resist. Partially because change is hard, partially because you're running your bodies on fewer calories on purpose. There is the ever present feeling of "I could go for a quick snack but I really really shouldn't". I don't believe there will ever be this One Secret Trick That Doctors Hate to losing weight (except for getting dangerously ill, perhaps). However, if research like this can lead to ways to reduce some of the symptoms of cutting calories, I think the world might become a lot healthier. There is also always the risk of this being exploited, of course; I'd imagine some less than humane leaders would be all to pleased if their working populace wouldn't be complaining about hunger all the time. The brain exhibits this behaviour for a reason, probably a good one, and surpressing it willy-nilly can only end in disaster.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  The “trick” is to eat whole foods that will make you feel full even when eating less.
throwaway09223 4y ago
"people with a lack of willpower" Well, people who lack willpower still want to solve their weight problem. They can't use willpower because they don't have it. This is why they look for secret tricks. Not so complicated.
- 988747 4y ago
  Solution to weight problem that I found is simple, even if somewhat expensive: dietary catering (as in: having ready-made meals delivered to your doorstep). The problem isn't usually quantity of food, but quality. Having 5 pre-packaged, healthy, low GI meals delivered makes it quite easy to follow the diet. Also, you don't even have to reduce calorie intake in the beginning: feel free to order 2500-3000 calorie option, if you so wish. You won't be losing any weight on that, but at least your metabolism, your glucose levels will stabilize. Then, after 2-3 weeks adjustment period, change your calorie intake to 1500 calories and continue for another month or two - the results are almost magical.
  - epicureanideal 4y ago
    I wonder if it would make sense to have the government heavily subsidize healthy, low GI, low calorie density meal preparation and delivery, bringing it down to the cost of the cheapest junk food? I imagine it would be expensive, but only as expensive as food and delivery of it, and would reduce much more expensive health care costs, right?
  - throwaway09223 4y ago
    There are so many different ways to address mindfulness around eating. I'm glad you found one that works well for you! I'm a big fan of meal prep and portion control. Casual servings often end up being several times larger than necessary. I agree with you that practicing deliberate portioning is really important. Another big issue is condiments. It's really easy to add a few tbsp of dressing to an otherwise healthy meal, which can add a few hundred "hidden" calories.
  - BariumBlue 4y ago
    I've had similar results! At first when I tried monitoring my diet, I assumed that 2600 calories/day with exercise would be good enough, but I was only losing ~1lb/month. It did make it way easier for me to transition to 1.5-2k calories though, I'm not sure I could've done that from the start. And it's definitely easier to feel satisfied off low cal food if it's nutritious - smoothies with protein powder and greens? Filling and diet friendly (esp if no milk). Water? Low cal, but you'll definitely still feel cravings.
kenjackson 4y ago
I doubt that lack of willpower is often the issue. Even a slightly more efficient metabolism can lead to 5 lbs per year of additional weight with no increase in caloric consumption. That adds up quickly. Properly balancing caloric efficiency at a young age is probably far more effective long term and honestly likely more pragmatic.
JamesBarney 4y ago
I don't understand the obsession with not seeking effective medical solutions over impossible solutions that feel moral like changing human nature or society to be less obesogenic.
1123581321 4y ago
Someone made an idle, curious comment and you called it an obsession.
AmpsterMan 4y ago
It's quite simple to understand. An individual has a much greater control over their diet and activity than they do over the multifaceted forces that have lead to the current food situation in the West.
gustavpaul 4y ago
After moving tk the USA I was shocked to find that fast food (mcD, burger king, etc) was cheaper than buying fruit and vegetables. In South Africa anything that tastes good costs a lot more money, so you're naturally more inclined to eat healthy - or eat nothing but meat, which is how my demographic solved that problem. Also, try and find granola or cereal without sugar, corn syrup, or dextrose (low fat or sugar free products all seem to contain dextrose, which is like "super sugar", congrats food industry on selling that one.)
staticassertion 4y ago
Tackling the "core problem" of "all life has evolved to build a surplus of energy given a surplus of resources over the course of the lifetime of our universe" feels way harder to solve through willpower than addressing the biology directly.
ravi-delia 4y ago
If you find a secret trick to dieting, it literally could not matter less that you are "enabling yet more of the bad behavior". Being thin isn't some magically ennobling activity, and the only reasons one might prefer weighing less are practical (health, comfort, appearance, etc depending on the person). A hypothetical magic diet pill would solve 100% of these issues, and would in fact render tackling those core problems useless. Does such a pill exist? Well obviously not, but that's a very different claim from the one you made.

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

It often isn't lack of will power, but other issues. Nobody wants to be overweight or obese, but people suffer from all sorts of other issues that make it harder for them to get their life in order.

Firmwarrior 4y ago
I dunno man, I've been super fat all my life, except in college when I decided to get in shape I developed a healthy diet and healthy habits, and was able to get down to a healthy weight.. but staying there required a constant influx of willpower. If I only ate enough food to stay at a low weight, I was hungry all the time. (Eventually I ballooned back out, although now I'm losing weight again since I've realized that Morbid Obesity is no place for old men) I think there is a systems issue at work. My body is just calibrated to hog food until it gets pretty fat, and then it'll stay there unless I do something out of the ordinary. Telling fat people to get their shit together can work, the same way telling poor people to learn to code works. (I don't think that thin people are thin because they're hungry all the time and they overpower those urges, the same way poor people aren't necessarily all bad people who piss away all their money)
- Enginerrrd 4y ago
  Yeah this aligns pretty well with the research. There's a lot we don't know. But it definitely does appear that a lot of obese people have some sort of homeostatic miscalibration on where their body's set point is for weight. The mechanisms involved there are numerous and complex. It's quite possible that there's something simple going on that could be adjusted in the future to get a person's weight set point down, and from there it's quite likely that they will be able to autoregulate. Conversely, it's really hard for any intervention to succeed long-term when a person's weight doesn't match this internal set point.
  - epicureanideal 4y ago
    > some sort of homeostatic miscalibration Possibly leftovers of a highly adaptive mechanism that let some of their ancestors survive times of extreme famine?
    - Enginerrrd 4y ago
      That's at least partially true, but there are serious issues with that explanation if you want to explain all of the effect. In particular, there really does appear to be something different going on in the last 2-4 decades or so affecting people's internal set points. When you compare to other recent historical times where there was also an abundance of food, people were self-regulating better than they are now.
- confidantlake 4y ago
  I agree with this. As a non overweight person I don't feel hungry all the time. However, I don't think it is genetics can explain why the obesity rate has exploded in recent decades. Seeing friends and family members that are overweight, they tend to have some similar habits. They consume a lot of liquid calories, ie sodas, fruit juice, sugar in coffee etc. They also eat calorie dense foods, ie ranch dressing, fast food, cookies while consuming fewer fruits and vegetables. They also tend to not consume as much protein and are usually fairly sedentary. I don't think blaming individuals does much good, but at the same time I don't think some people are just doomed to be fat. If everyone around you is eating healthy non calorie dense food and walking a lot you probably will too. Conversely if everyone around you is eating high quantities of processed food while being sedentary you probably will too.
- sn9 4y ago
  There actually is a fix for your particular issue (and indeed this would help many people). You just need to eat nutritiously dense, high fiber foods that have low caloric density to fill you up. So a diet heavy in vegetables and whole foods would keep you full without keeping you at a heavier weight. This would allow you to maintain a caloric deficit to get to your goal weight without going hungry, and once you get to your goal weight you can just reintroduce other foods that are more calorically dense if you'd like. There's a subreddit filled with examples of this kinda thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Volumeeating/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Volumeeating/
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    Thanks man. I did notice that when I moved to Japan for a few years, I lost a pretty decent amount of weight just from the different habits I'll check that out for sure.. right now I'm in the honeymoon phase of dieting, where I can lose weight by just switching from sugary soda to sparkling water and staying away from American restaurants

crdrost 4y ago

The metaproblem is that you're thinking of this as a systems problem, the people who irk you are thinking of it as isolated—an isolated closed-box test, no less. Like, most people in this discussion would not think of mental-health therapy as a diet plan, but if you're thinking in terms of the systems involved then that seems more likely to generate more weight loss than any fad diet over a long run. It's just really tempting to be reductive.

epicureanideal 4y ago
> most people in this discussion would not think of mental-health therapy as a diet plan Absolutely. "Just eat less" is not a viable strategy for a parent working 60-70 hours per week who needs to eat a high calorie diet, among other unhealthy practices, just to stay barely functional to support their family. Or someone who is so exhausted by their work just to keep a roof over their head that they have no mental energy to think about shopping for different food, preparing it, and so on.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > eat a high calorie diet, among other unhealthy practices Eating a high-calorie diet is not unhealthy.
- Shorel 4y ago
  I have more energy and can work more hours since I switched to a Keto diet. I think it's probably the other way around: you fix your diet first, and mental health will improve as a result.

cjohansson 4y ago

Very good points, I'm saving that text in my library

standardUser 4y ago

I don't believe you don't understand why people would want to find easier ways to lose weight.

honkler 4y ago
You’re trying to treat cancer with bandaids
- notnaut 4y ago
  If there were a bandaid cure for cancer, we’d use it.
  - blowski 4y ago
    Absolutely. But there isn't a bandaid for either cancer or obesity.
    - throwaway09223 4y ago
      Of course there isn't. That's why we're still looking for one. Looking for easy solutions is very understandable, re: the original topic.
      - jasonhansel 4y ago
        +1. People seem to think that, since they had to suffer through diet and exercise to lose weight, everyone else should have to suffer equally; for some reason people think it's "unfair" to lose weight through e.g. medications. This makes no sense, and it isn't consistent with how we treat any other illness.
        sinsterizme 4y ago
        Being fat isn’t an illness in the same sense as we normally define it. It’s a conscious decision making process that is self-inflicted. It’s lazy to turn to medication just because the real method is difficult. Most medication has side effects, deal with the root issue instead

cjohansson 4y ago

Even if you eat healthy food you still need willpower to prevent yourself from eating too much. But it's a easier problem

jeroenhd 4y ago

Advertising is only part of the problem, as is accessibility and price. You don't grow obese by eating a candy bar once a week, you have to turn your unhealthy food consumption into a pattern and patterns of behaviour are inherently difficult to change. You can remove all advertising for candy and fast food and most people will still not lose any weight. At best you'll prevent new obesity cases by a tiny margin. When actively trying to lose weight, the body and mind resist. Partially because change is hard, partially because you're running your bodies on fewer calories on purpose. There is the ever present feeling of "I could go for a quick snack but I really really shouldn't". I don't believe there will ever be this One Secret Trick That Doctors Hate to losing weight (except for getting dangerously ill, perhaps). However, if research like this can lead to ways to reduce some of the symptoms of cutting calories, I think the world might become a lot healthier. There is also always the risk of this being exploited, of course; I'd imagine some less than humane leaders would be all to pleased if their working populace wouldn't be complaining about hunger all the time. The brain exhibits this behaviour for a reason, probably a good one, and surpressing it willy-nilly can only end in disaster.

nicoburns 4y ago
The “trick” is to eat whole foods that will make you feel full even when eating less.

throwaway09223 4y ago

"people with a lack of willpower" Well, people who lack willpower still want to solve their weight problem. They can't use willpower because they don't have it. This is why they look for secret tricks. Not so complicated.

988747 4y ago
Solution to weight problem that I found is simple, even if somewhat expensive: dietary catering (as in: having ready-made meals delivered to your doorstep). The problem isn't usually quantity of food, but quality. Having 5 pre-packaged, healthy, low GI meals delivered makes it quite easy to follow the diet. Also, you don't even have to reduce calorie intake in the beginning: feel free to order 2500-3000 calorie option, if you so wish. You won't be losing any weight on that, but at least your metabolism, your glucose levels will stabilize. Then, after 2-3 weeks adjustment period, change your calorie intake to 1500 calories and continue for another month or two - the results are almost magical.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  I wonder if it would make sense to have the government heavily subsidize healthy, low GI, low calorie density meal preparation and delivery, bringing it down to the cost of the cheapest junk food? I imagine it would be expensive, but only as expensive as food and delivery of it, and would reduce much more expensive health care costs, right?
- throwaway09223 4y ago
  There are so many different ways to address mindfulness around eating. I'm glad you found one that works well for you! I'm a big fan of meal prep and portion control. Casual servings often end up being several times larger than necessary. I agree with you that practicing deliberate portioning is really important. Another big issue is condiments. It's really easy to add a few tbsp of dressing to an otherwise healthy meal, which can add a few hundred "hidden" calories.
- BariumBlue 4y ago
  I've had similar results! At first when I tried monitoring my diet, I assumed that 2600 calories/day with exercise would be good enough, but I was only losing ~1lb/month. It did make it way easier for me to transition to 1.5-2k calories though, I'm not sure I could've done that from the start. And it's definitely easier to feel satisfied off low cal food if it's nutritious - smoothies with protein powder and greens? Filling and diet friendly (esp if no milk). Water? Low cal, but you'll definitely still feel cravings.

kenjackson 4y ago

I doubt that lack of willpower is often the issue. Even a slightly more efficient metabolism can lead to 5 lbs per year of additional weight with no increase in caloric consumption. That adds up quickly. Properly balancing caloric efficiency at a young age is probably far more effective long term and honestly likely more pragmatic.

JamesBarney 4y ago

I don't understand the obsession with not seeking effective medical solutions over impossible solutions that feel moral like changing human nature or society to be less obesogenic.

1123581321 4y ago

Someone made an idle, curious comment and you called it an obsession.

AmpsterMan 4y ago

It's quite simple to understand. An individual has a much greater control over their diet and activity than they do over the multifaceted forces that have lead to the current food situation in the West.

gustavpaul 4y ago

After moving tk the USA I was shocked to find that fast food (mcD, burger king, etc) was cheaper than buying fruit and vegetables. In South Africa anything that tastes good costs a lot more money, so you're naturally more inclined to eat healthy - or eat nothing but meat, which is how my demographic solved that problem. Also, try and find granola or cereal without sugar, corn syrup, or dextrose (low fat or sugar free products all seem to contain dextrose, which is like "super sugar", congrats food industry on selling that one.)

staticassertion 4y ago

Tackling the "core problem" of "all life has evolved to build a surplus of energy given a surplus of resources over the course of the lifetime of our universe" feels way harder to solve through willpower than addressing the biology directly.

ravi-delia 4y ago

If you find a secret trick to dieting, it literally could not matter less that you are "enabling yet more of the bad behavior". Being thin isn't some magically ennobling activity, and the only reasons one might prefer weighing less are practical (health, comfort, appearance, etc depending on the person). A hypothetical magic diet pill would solve 100% of these issues, and would in fact render tackling those core problems useless. Does such a pill exist? Well obviously not, but that's a very different claim from the one you made.