6 ms·

There's been some surface coverage of the US shortage of teachers for a while, yet we haven't seen much movement in terms of compensation. Maybe there has been

There's been some surface coverage of the US shortage of teachers for a while, yet we haven't seen much movement in terms of compensation. Maybe there has been a push to get people into the field but I haven't seen it. IMHO, it's worth keeping in mind that this about more than the stress of the pandemic. The increasing costs of student loans (and the cost of servicing them after graduation) may also make teaching positions less attractive and, perhaps, unsustainable. Here is a random article from before the pandemic. + 2018: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/06/teacher-shortages-guardian-survey-schools https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/06/teacher-shor... And one that is more recent. + 2022: https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/05/us/teacher-prep-student-shortages-covid-crisis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/05/us/teacher-prep-student-short...

busterarm 4y ago
Wages alone won't do it. You have the greater forces of an industry that conspires to exclude one gender and all but one ideology. The shortage is self-inflicted. Exceedingly few people are being allowed to do the job. Edit: downvote away but the numbers don't lie. Male elementary school teachers hasn't passed 18% in decades (it's even worse in K-3 where we're talking low single digits) and there are multiple news stories covering the reasons. If you don't think men aren't being chased out of that profession then you don't know any teachers.
- azemetre 4y ago
  I don't really think it's a conspiracy or ideology (lol). Teachers pay extremely poor in the vast majority of states in the US. I mean a scrum expert makes more than an elementary school teacher. Wages absolutely have everything to do with it, why deny it and try to make it a political issue (lol)? Few people do the job because it's an extremely bad deal. You will make more as a bartender than you will as a teacher, with the added bonus of a restaurant manager willing to kick out unruly guests whereas a school admin will likely side with the parents. Typically the jobs that are most useful to society pay extremely bad (janitors, garbage collection, teachers, nursing assistants, dock workers, delivery people, etc). I'd checkout bullshit jobs manifesto if you haven't" https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/ https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    > Teachers pay extremely poor in the vast majority of states in the US. You hear this over and over and nobody ever provides numbers, they just assure you it's horrible.
    - piva00 4y ago
      You can check some numbers, ranked, by state: https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salary-in-every-state-2018-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salary-in-every-stat...
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Numbers are not going to capture the terrible quality of life at work for many teachers. Plus all the extra hours they work outside of school.
        mancerayder 4y ago
        There's also a very long set of holidays.
        camgunz 4y ago
        Teachers often have to do teaching work over the holidays or attend continuing education. Or they have to work their 2nd job because teaching doesn't pay enough.
        loonster 4y ago
        Dont forget about the vacation and PTO ontop of the holidays. I would gladly take a 20% pay cut to get the same perks.
        notacoward 4y ago
        So why don't you? Your employer would almost certainly be willing (source: I have successfully gone through this kind of negotiation myself). If they're not, there are probably other employers looking for the same skills. Or was your claim merely convenient rather than true?
- threatofrain 4y ago
  I think the community at large prefers female teachers and trusts them more around children.
  - busterarm 4y ago
    It's a good thing that sex-based discrimination is illegal then. Reframe your statement around race instead of gender and it should be obvious what a disgusting opinion that would be to hold.
    - threatofrain 4y ago
      Morality is about community relations and disgust on any side of the equation tends to make people leave. An attitude as strong as community-wide disgust may render one morally ineffective in promoting community progression. I'm trying to point out what I think is the most important demographic of stakeholders that is responsible for perpetuating the gender imbalance in the industry.
      - gruez 4y ago
        >Morality is about community relations and disgust on any side of the equation tends to make people leave. something tells me that if similar discrimination was applied in the opposite direction (eg. "the community trusts male police more", or "shareholders trusts male CEOs more"), there would be government interventions to fix that "attitude".
  - sieabahlpark 4y ago
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  I'm a man working towards a masters in childhood education (elementary school) in New York. I have gotten some surprised looks, and people who assumed the teacher must be someone else, but nothing I would class as hostility. I suspect most female software developers experience much worse. Speaking of, if you think the skewed gender ratio in teaching is evidence of a conspiracy, what do you make of the gender ratio in software development and other engineering fields?
  - busterarm 4y ago
    Women are more represented in software engineering than man are in elementary education. This was even more true when I started working in IT nearly 25 years ago. I don't know any women who have been automatically assumed to be a child molestor just because they're a software engineer. As for software engineering itself, it's mostly a crappy thankless job that is only offset by the pay. The hardest part of the job is not quitting. I do it because I don't want to do anything else. Anyway, you're still just studying to be the thing that we're talking about here. Let's talk after you've been on your own and working for 2-3 years. That's about how long my cousin lasted as a first grade teacher before he gave it up for construction. Also in the NYC area.
- carapace 4y ago
  When my mom was my age her job options were: Nurse, school teacher, secretary. Either those or be a nun. She wasn't allowed to wear pants. The "conspiracy" or "ideology", if any, was that until recently only men could get all the other jobs.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    Don't think swinging the pendulum of discrimination to the other side does anyone any good.
    - carapace 4y ago
      Of course not. But I don't see that happening here. It's not like it was 50/50 in the past and now we have 80/20, eh? FWIW, I know someone who works at a local elementary school and there are male teachers there, none of whom are being "chased out".
Balgair 4y ago
Compensation in the US can be complicated. Some rural districts near me are offering houses and cars in lieu of actual dollars. These districts are chronically understaffed and quite poor. So other forms of value have to be transferred in order to attract teachers. Not that it does any good really. The houses and cars tend to be in bad condition/s, and then there's a fun little federal tax burden you get for being gifted such items. That and the rural districts tend to the end of the road for a teaching career. Since the pay is so bad, you can't save up to move back to a city district, or get more professional credentials, or advance your career in any real way. That and you have to live in a really small town as an outsider that doesn't really 'belong' there. I feel for those districts, but the math is the math. It's not worth it to become a rural teacher if you have other options.

busterarm 4y ago

Wages alone won't do it. You have the greater forces of an industry that conspires to exclude one gender and all but one ideology. The shortage is self-inflicted. Exceedingly few people are being allowed to do the job. Edit: downvote away but the numbers don't lie. Male elementary school teachers hasn't passed 18% in decades (it's even worse in K-3 where we're talking low single digits) and there are multiple news stories covering the reasons. If you don't think men aren't being chased out of that profession then you don't know any teachers.

azemetre 4y ago
I don't really think it's a conspiracy or ideology (lol). Teachers pay extremely poor in the vast majority of states in the US. I mean a scrum expert makes more than an elementary school teacher. Wages absolutely have everything to do with it, why deny it and try to make it a political issue (lol)? Few people do the job because it's an extremely bad deal. You will make more as a bartender than you will as a teacher, with the added bonus of a restaurant manager willing to kick out unruly guests whereas a school admin will likely side with the parents. Typically the jobs that are most useful to society pay extremely bad (janitors, garbage collection, teachers, nursing assistants, dock workers, delivery people, etc). I'd checkout bullshit jobs manifesto if you haven't" https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/ https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/
- willcipriano 4y ago
  > Teachers pay extremely poor in the vast majority of states in the US. You hear this over and over and nobody ever provides numbers, they just assure you it's horrible.
  - piva00 4y ago
    You can check some numbers, ranked, by state: https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salary-in-every-state-2018-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salary-in-every-stat...
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Numbers are not going to capture the terrible quality of life at work for many teachers. Plus all the extra hours they work outside of school.
      - mancerayder 4y ago
        There's also a very long set of holidays.
        camgunz 4y ago
        Teachers often have to do teaching work over the holidays or attend continuing education. Or they have to work their 2nd job because teaching doesn't pay enough.
        loonster 4y ago
        Dont forget about the vacation and PTO ontop of the holidays. I would gladly take a 20% pay cut to get the same perks.
        notacoward 4y ago
        So why don't you? Your employer would almost certainly be willing (source: I have successfully gone through this kind of negotiation myself). If they're not, there are probably other employers looking for the same skills. Or was your claim merely convenient rather than true?
threatofrain 4y ago
I think the community at large prefers female teachers and trusts them more around children.
- busterarm 4y ago
  It's a good thing that sex-based discrimination is illegal then. Reframe your statement around race instead of gender and it should be obvious what a disgusting opinion that would be to hold.
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    Morality is about community relations and disgust on any side of the equation tends to make people leave. An attitude as strong as community-wide disgust may render one morally ineffective in promoting community progression. I'm trying to point out what I think is the most important demographic of stakeholders that is responsible for perpetuating the gender imbalance in the industry.
    - gruez 4y ago
      >Morality is about community relations and disgust on any side of the equation tends to make people leave. something tells me that if similar discrimination was applied in the opposite direction (eg. "the community trusts male police more", or "shareholders trusts male CEOs more"), there would be government interventions to fix that "attitude".
- sieabahlpark 4y ago
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
I'm a man working towards a masters in childhood education (elementary school) in New York. I have gotten some surprised looks, and people who assumed the teacher must be someone else, but nothing I would class as hostility. I suspect most female software developers experience much worse. Speaking of, if you think the skewed gender ratio in teaching is evidence of a conspiracy, what do you make of the gender ratio in software development and other engineering fields?
- busterarm 4y ago
  Women are more represented in software engineering than man are in elementary education. This was even more true when I started working in IT nearly 25 years ago. I don't know any women who have been automatically assumed to be a child molestor just because they're a software engineer. As for software engineering itself, it's mostly a crappy thankless job that is only offset by the pay. The hardest part of the job is not quitting. I do it because I don't want to do anything else. Anyway, you're still just studying to be the thing that we're talking about here. Let's talk after you've been on your own and working for 2-3 years. That's about how long my cousin lasted as a first grade teacher before he gave it up for construction. Also in the NYC area.
carapace 4y ago
When my mom was my age her job options were: Nurse, school teacher, secretary. Either those or be a nun. She wasn't allowed to wear pants. The "conspiracy" or "ideology", if any, was that until recently only men could get all the other jobs.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  Don't think swinging the pendulum of discrimination to the other side does anyone any good.
  - carapace 4y ago
    Of course not. But I don't see that happening here. It's not like it was 50/50 in the past and now we have 80/20, eh? FWIW, I know someone who works at a local elementary school and there are male teachers there, none of whom are being "chased out".

Balgair 4y ago

Compensation in the US can be complicated. Some rural districts near me are offering houses and cars in lieu of actual dollars. These districts are chronically understaffed and quite poor. So other forms of value have to be transferred in order to attract teachers. Not that it does any good really. The houses and cars tend to be in bad condition/s, and then there's a fun little federal tax burden you get for being gifted such items. That and the rural districts tend to the end of the road for a teaching career. Since the pay is so bad, you can't save up to move back to a city district, or get more professional credentials, or advance your career in any real way. That and you have to live in a really small town as an outsider that doesn't really 'belong' there. I feel for those districts, but the math is the math. It's not worth it to become a rural teacher if you have other options.