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> Today, I ended up going to my other bank and pulling all of my money out as cash. I can't trust the system to not steal even more money from me. That's messed

> Today, I ended up going to my other bank and pulling all of my money out as cash. I can't trust the system to not steal even more money from me. That's messed up. Because monday is a bank holiday, now I have to wait until tuesday until my accountant can deal with this bullshit. What kind of broken system is this? Same. It's insane how little control and power you have as an average person. Your bank accounts can be frozen on a whimp, you can be put into a jail with no attorney because you cannot use your own money to pay for them and forced to confess to something you never did, then slave away for the state. There are too many laws everywhere which means you've broken some. The only difference between you and the person who got caught is selective enforcement and someone wanting to make an example or fulfil their own goals. And financial system will snitch on all of it. You have no privacy. Is that not insane? You could be jailed for having a financial transactions on grindr in some countries in the world. Countries impose financial and currency controls against the benefit of the people all the time. It's not "freedom" if you cannot choose to take your money outside. It's fucked up how normalised limiting freedom has become. You don't notice it. The state controls so much of your money forcefully with a threat of violence and isolation. Your money that you work hard for, sweat for, break your bones for.

latchkey 4y ago
Yes. All of this is why "web3" is not bullshit and why I've dedicated years of my energy and my funds to it. Try living in another country too, I have. Banking is the number one pain point. Even more than language issues. Ever tried to get your own money out of a western union in a country that doesn't speak your language? If you're doubting "web3" then you've probably never experienced these sorts of pain yourself and I could understand your trepidation. But since I'm understanding you, how about understanding me too.
- granddemolisher 4y ago
  IMO, the term web3 is tainted by VCs using retail to dump their tokens faster than they can dump equity in traditional IPO which is less transparent to average schmuck because most of the money comes from the retirement funds passively investing in everything. It's their shortcut to liquidity which resulted in overpromises and dumps. It's not unreasonable for someone to be sceptical but to dismiss it all together is a mistake. We need to go back to the core. Decentralized financial instruments built to help people prosper economicly. To uplift poor people in unbanked countries. To stop dictators from rugging poor people and investors. To provide individual freedom and highest level of personal attainment. The yield bullshit needs to stop. Edit: I don't mean all yield strategies, just ones which are unsustainable (most of them). I want unsecured lending products in crypto based on on-chain reputation which happens automatically on taking small loans or doing a lot of transactions maybe endorsement system where institutions stake money in return of verification. Banks won't provide loans to people who need them the most. Even self employment people and founders with millions of dollars in exit struggle with a home loan because banks refuse to deal with anyone who doesn't fit their cookie cutter. I believe crypto has potential to disrupt it. I love flash loans for this exact reason. They are unique to crypto, allowing freedom to anyone to increase market efficiency by taking advantage of arbitrage without creditionals and needing absurd amount of capital to start.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    Certainly, the marketing around web3 went to shit. But I've been in it for 4 years now so I don't really care about the VC's because I see the larger picture already. I agree with everything you said, but the end. The ponzi tokenomics definitely needs to stop, but the lego yield stuff has potential. It is more than just unbanked, it is people without lines of credit. It is teaching people how to be fiscally responsible. Based on my Vietnam example below. Woman with gold teeth instead deposits her stable money into her phone. That money earns yield automatically. She can also use a portion of it as collateral for a Kiva-style loan to help with her farm crops (or whatever small business she has). People who buy her products effectively pay back her loan directly by submitting to her phone app. She's in control of it herself.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  Banking is a solved problem, has been for decades. Seeking an alternative in technological complex solutions is running away from the actual problem.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    If banking was a solved problem, then how come so many people don’t have an account?
    - mateo411 4y ago
      Because they have little to no money.
      - latchkey 4y ago
        By that same logic, taxis were a solved problem and uber shouldn't exist, yet here we are today. It doesn't matter how much money someone has. Everyone has a right to have a safe place to store it.
    - mmcnl 4y ago
      Because the problem isn't banking. There are lots of people who don't have access to clean water either. Doesn't mean we need new solutions to provide clean water, but rather we need to figure out why existing solutions don't always work.
      - latchkey 4y ago
        > Doesn't mean we need new solutions to provide clean water, but rather we need to figure out why existing solutions don't always work. Solution doesn't work, we need a new solution. It doesn't need to be 'new', it needs to be 'different'! Play on words, at the end of the day, people still don't have bank accounts or clean water. Something isn't working. I'd rather be part of the solution and not part of the problem, even if the solution isn't perfect. It is also an apple/orange comparison. Water != Bank Account.
  - 4y ago
sshine 4y ago
> You have no privacy. Is that not insane? You could be jailed for having a financial transactions on grindr in some countries in the world. That’s because privacy against the state is at odds with enforcing the state’s laws. From a state-centric perspective, money is “good citizen behaviour” points. If you maintain a job deemed valuable, the bank prints you money to buy a house, etc. You have to know what people used their money on to assess if that’s good behaviour or not.
- latchkey 4y ago
  That's why bitcoin and ethereum are so awesome. It gives this power back to the people and there is not a whole lot that governments can do about it except watch the flow of funds. Of course we can argue over finer details, but the overall course has been set. It is just a matter of innovation now. Having the combination of bitcoin as the single limited entity (simple is valuable) and eth as the programmable, more complex version of that, solves a lot of general needs and provides a good foundation to build on. Sure the on/off ramps make it easier to trace it to individuals, but what happens when people stop using those and just deal with each other directly? L2's will make the smaller day to day, transactions cheaper and faster and those will just roll up with checkpoints on the L1's. DeFi is a bottom up step in that direction. To emulate the existing infrastructure, we need programmable money. It stumbled to begin with, but again the foundation has been laid. Cat is out of the bag, so to speak.
  - medvezhenok 4y ago
    I’m not sure that I would want people to hold all of that power - there’a a reason that the state has a monopoly on violence in the first place - turns out that having people roam the streets with guns is a less pleasant reality to be in for most people (look at Russia in the 1990s for what that looks like). Not to go all black-mirror, but imagine someone anonymously putting up a $X million dollar bounty on someone’s head, backed by a smart contract promise or something (I know that it can’t be guaranteed at present, but imagine). Or other nefarious things that most of the society considers harmful - and having no way to stop those from happening. Same as the promise of “hard money” - look at the 1930s for what a deflationary bust with “hard money” looks like. There is a reason why we have the current system, and while there are large issues with it, Bitcoin/Crypto solves very few of them

latchkey 4y ago

Yes. All of this is why "web3" is not bullshit and why I've dedicated years of my energy and my funds to it. Try living in another country too, I have. Banking is the number one pain point. Even more than language issues. Ever tried to get your own money out of a western union in a country that doesn't speak your language? If you're doubting "web3" then you've probably never experienced these sorts of pain yourself and I could understand your trepidation. But since I'm understanding you, how about understanding me too.

granddemolisher 4y ago
IMO, the term web3 is tainted by VCs using retail to dump their tokens faster than they can dump equity in traditional IPO which is less transparent to average schmuck because most of the money comes from the retirement funds passively investing in everything. It's their shortcut to liquidity which resulted in overpromises and dumps. It's not unreasonable for someone to be sceptical but to dismiss it all together is a mistake. We need to go back to the core. Decentralized financial instruments built to help people prosper economicly. To uplift poor people in unbanked countries. To stop dictators from rugging poor people and investors. To provide individual freedom and highest level of personal attainment. The yield bullshit needs to stop. Edit: I don't mean all yield strategies, just ones which are unsustainable (most of them). I want unsecured lending products in crypto based on on-chain reputation which happens automatically on taking small loans or doing a lot of transactions maybe endorsement system where institutions stake money in return of verification. Banks won't provide loans to people who need them the most. Even self employment people and founders with millions of dollars in exit struggle with a home loan because banks refuse to deal with anyone who doesn't fit their cookie cutter. I believe crypto has potential to disrupt it. I love flash loans for this exact reason. They are unique to crypto, allowing freedom to anyone to increase market efficiency by taking advantage of arbitrage without creditionals and needing absurd amount of capital to start.
- latchkey 4y ago
  Certainly, the marketing around web3 went to shit. But I've been in it for 4 years now so I don't really care about the VC's because I see the larger picture already. I agree with everything you said, but the end. The ponzi tokenomics definitely needs to stop, but the lego yield stuff has potential. It is more than just unbanked, it is people without lines of credit. It is teaching people how to be fiscally responsible. Based on my Vietnam example below. Woman with gold teeth instead deposits her stable money into her phone. That money earns yield automatically. She can also use a portion of it as collateral for a Kiva-style loan to help with her farm crops (or whatever small business she has). People who buy her products effectively pay back her loan directly by submitting to her phone app. She's in control of it herself.
mmcnl 4y ago
Banking is a solved problem, has been for decades. Seeking an alternative in technological complex solutions is running away from the actual problem.
- latchkey 4y ago
  If banking was a solved problem, then how come so many people don’t have an account?
  - mateo411 4y ago
    Because they have little to no money.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      By that same logic, taxis were a solved problem and uber shouldn't exist, yet here we are today. It doesn't matter how much money someone has. Everyone has a right to have a safe place to store it.
  - mmcnl 4y ago
    Because the problem isn't banking. There are lots of people who don't have access to clean water either. Doesn't mean we need new solutions to provide clean water, but rather we need to figure out why existing solutions don't always work.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      > Doesn't mean we need new solutions to provide clean water, but rather we need to figure out why existing solutions don't always work. Solution doesn't work, we need a new solution. It doesn't need to be 'new', it needs to be 'different'! Play on words, at the end of the day, people still don't have bank accounts or clean water. Something isn't working. I'd rather be part of the solution and not part of the problem, even if the solution isn't perfect. It is also an apple/orange comparison. Water != Bank Account.
- 4y ago

sshine 4y ago

> You have no privacy. Is that not insane? You could be jailed for having a financial transactions on grindr in some countries in the world. That’s because privacy against the state is at odds with enforcing the state’s laws. From a state-centric perspective, money is “good citizen behaviour” points. If you maintain a job deemed valuable, the bank prints you money to buy a house, etc. You have to know what people used their money on to assess if that’s good behaviour or not.

latchkey 4y ago
That's why bitcoin and ethereum are so awesome. It gives this power back to the people and there is not a whole lot that governments can do about it except watch the flow of funds. Of course we can argue over finer details, but the overall course has been set. It is just a matter of innovation now. Having the combination of bitcoin as the single limited entity (simple is valuable) and eth as the programmable, more complex version of that, solves a lot of general needs and provides a good foundation to build on. Sure the on/off ramps make it easier to trace it to individuals, but what happens when people stop using those and just deal with each other directly? L2's will make the smaller day to day, transactions cheaper and faster and those will just roll up with checkpoints on the L1's. DeFi is a bottom up step in that direction. To emulate the existing infrastructure, we need programmable money. It stumbled to begin with, but again the foundation has been laid. Cat is out of the bag, so to speak.
- medvezhenok 4y ago
  I’m not sure that I would want people to hold all of that power - there’a a reason that the state has a monopoly on violence in the first place - turns out that having people roam the streets with guns is a less pleasant reality to be in for most people (look at Russia in the 1990s for what that looks like). Not to go all black-mirror, but imagine someone anonymously putting up a $X million dollar bounty on someone’s head, backed by a smart contract promise or something (I know that it can’t be guaranteed at present, but imagine). Or other nefarious things that most of the society considers harmful - and having no way to stop those from happening. Same as the promise of “hard money” - look at the 1930s for what a deflationary bust with “hard money” looks like. There is a reason why we have the current system, and while there are large issues with it, Bitcoin/Crypto solves very few of them